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TOPIC: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana?

Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 15 Dec 2011 05:52 #16

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Hi Jim,
The thing that really caught my eye with Bedcrafters vs. Verlo was the Bedcrafters guarantee:

Bedcrafters: Lifetime comfort guarantee
If for any reason you are not comfortable on your mattress set during the entire life span of its guarantee we will rebuild it to your liking. materials and transportation are additional Because your comfort is our main goal there is no limit to how many times we will rebuild it.

Verlo: Their guarantee page was LOOONNGGG but this one part caught my eye:

Guarantee does not cover items such as, but not limited to:
Body impressions less than 1 1/2" deep

That sounds like the typical 4 S industry standard baloney. I have a bed now that is nowhere near 1.5" depression....until you LAY on it....then it is a crater....any bed is shot well before 1.5" deep holes form IMHO....

You're right about this and 1.5" is the "standard" industry warranty exclusion (and is only one of the issues that keeps them from paying out on most warranty claims). Warranties in most cases are a sales tool much more than consumer protection and any real manufacturing defects that are covered will usually show up very early. They are there to cater to consumer belief that longer warranties mean better mattresses and this "cultivated" belief becomes a major sales technique to "step up" customers to a higher priced mattress in many mainstream outlets. The best protection from foam softening and impressions is knowing the materials and the type of construction used in a mattress. It also helps to have a manufacturer who is more inclined to keep a local customer happy if there are "borderline" claims than a manufacturer or outlet who will do whatever they can to deny their warranty claims. The "normal" exclusion for good quality memory foam and latex is .75". Memory foam will soften ... sometimes to a point where it really isn't suitable for sleeping on ... but will still be within the impression exclusion. Latex will only soften much more gradually over a longer period of time and softening and impressions are much less of an issue.

Verlo is a regional factory direct manufacturer and one of several (such as Original mattress factory and Denver mattress) that are more widespread. They are a franchise group of independently owned outlets which is owned by Vymac which also owns several other brands. They are better value than most mainstream outlets and offer better quality materials and service many areas where there are no other manufacturers but smaller local manufacturers are often better value yet.

I'm not as familiar with Bedcrafters and they are one of many that I have yet to have a few more in depth conversations with.
In fairness to Verlo, they also have a separate comfort guarantee, but with less generous terms ((1) Guarantee Coverage is Pro-rated (6) Transportation, parts and labor costs may apply. ) Maybe I will ask them what determines the "may apply" part.....

I like Bedcrafters guarantee. A lot.

There are many local manufacturers who will rebuild a mattress for you at a "less than market" price but I have to agree that Bedcrafters are certainly making this an attractive part of their value in that they don't charge for their labor for the service (although you do have to get the mattress to them and pay for the materials they use). This would be similar to having a layered mattress with a zip cover where a layer could be exchanged if someone's needs were to change down the road.

I think they are smart to both offer this and promote it the way they do.

Phoenix
If you are buying a new mattress, make sure you have read www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-...ttress--for-you.html
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 15 Dec 2011 15:10 #17

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Hi Jim,
If I was a mattress expert, what would my reaction be to this coil technology statement? Hype or with merit? (I searched the forum on active, reverse, and helical coils and did not find anything to answer this question) If marketing hype, would a statement like this be a red flag in general?

"after extensive research and development, we use the most state of the art coil system known to mankind. The Double Offset ACTIVE reverse coil with head to toe helical lacing is an active rather than reactive coil system. What this means to you is that the coil is already working without you having to push down to get support. This eliminates set points (coil fatigue). The Head to toe helical lacing eliminates transfer of motion across the bed and between partners. Every other coil alternates clockwise and counterclockwise, keeping the integrity of the coil system for a long time by eliminating twisting within the system."

There is some misinformation on this page thebedcrafters.com/coilsystems.html concerning both this coil and other types of coils which is designed to make people lean towards the coils they are using. The active coil system is based on the description from the supplier here www.beddingcomponents.com/verticoil-edge-brochure/active.asp which is where most manufacturers get their innersprings. Double offset means that the upper part of the coil has a squared head (instead of round) on each side which is attached to the coils beside it with a helical wire to create a hinging effect. The idea is that the hinge between each coil will react to lighter parts of the body (to aid in pressure relief) while the coil itself will support the heavier parts of the body. There is more information about coils including a good video here.

There is a near infinite variety of offset coil designs each with its own story attached. Offset coils are somewhere between pocket coils (which unlike the description on their page are usually tempered) and Bonnell coils in their ability to conform. They are also in between the two in their "support" although there are many variations in each type of coil. Pocket coils (or Marshall coils) don't have helicals so they can compress independently of the coils beside them which is why they are more conforming. Helicals can go side to side (in most Bonnell coils) which creates more motion transfer between sleepers on the mattress. In offset designs the helicals are usually head to toe so the motion transfer is less.

So the "translation" of this means it is a "hinged" or offset coil that can flex to shape itself to body contours and has the strength to hold up the heavier parts of the body. The helicals run head to to toe and each row of coils alternates in the direction of its turns to help with motion transfer. The claims made have some truth but are exaggerated in order to create the perception that these are "the best coils in the world". The design or type of coil works together with the other specs of an innerspring and with the other layers of a mattress as a whole and in the end creates the pressure relief, alignment, and preferences that make a mattress "the best" for any individual. You will get many arguments even among manufacturers about which is the "best" innerspring (which translates to "their favorite") and the reasons why each of them believes what they do.

So in this case I'd have to say mostly hype based on some exaggeration and downplaying other types of coil to create the perception that the coils they are using are the "best".

Phoenix
If you are buying a new mattress, make sure you have read www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-...ttress--for-you.html
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 15 Dec 2011 15:49 #18

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Since we were talking about Bedcrafters, I thought I'd take the chance to talk with them this morning and find out more about what they were making and the materials and types of construction they were using.

Their number is out of service so I guess it's a moot point. I'll list them as out of business in my database. They are (sadly) probably another casualty of the current environment and recent industry trends including some of the more onerous regulations that made life more difficult for many smaller local factory direct manufacturers or even some of the larger ones such as one of the more recent "casualties" here.

Phoenix
If you are buying a new mattress, make sure you have read www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-...ttress--for-you.html
Last Edit: 15 Dec 2011 16:05 by Phoenix.
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 15 Dec 2011 22:24 #19

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Phoenix wrote:
Hi Jim,
The thing that really caught my eye with Bedcrafters vs. Verlo was the Bedcrafters guarantee:

Bedcrafters: Lifetime comfort guarantee
If for any reason you are not comfortable on your mattress set during the entire life span of its guarantee we will rebuild it to your liking. materials and transportation are additional Because your comfort is our main goal there is no limit to how many times we will rebuild it.

Verlo: Their guarantee page was LOOONNGGG but this one part caught my eye:

Guarantee does not cover items such as, but not limited to:
Body impressions less than 1 1/2" deep

That sounds like the typical 4 S industry standard baloney. I have a bed now that is nowhere near 1.5" depression....until you LAY on it....then it is a crater....any bed is shot well before 1.5" deep holes form IMHO....

You're right about this and 1.5" is the "standard" industry warranty exclusion (and is only one of the issues that keeps them from paying out on most warranty claims). Warranties in most cases are a sales tool much more than consumer protection and any real manufacturing defects that are covered will usually show up very early. They are there to cater to consumer belief that longer warranties mean better mattresses and this "cultivated" belief becomes a major sales technique to "step up" customers to a higher priced mattress in many mainstream outlets. The best protection from foam softening and impressions is knowing the materials and the type of construction used in a mattress. It also helps to have a manufacturer who is more inclined to keep a local customer happy if there are "borderline" claims than a manufacturer or outlet who will do whatever they can to deny their warranty claims. The "normal" exclusion for good quality memory foam and latex is .75". Memory foam will soften ... sometimes to a point where it really isn't suitable for sleeping on ... but will still be within the impression exclusion. Latex will only soften much more gradually over a longer period of time and softening and impressions are much less of an issue.

Verlo is a regional factory direct manufacturer and one of several (such as Original mattress factory and Denver mattress) that are more widespread. They are a franchise group of independently owned outlets which is owned by Vymac which also owns several other brands. They are better value than most mainstream outlets and offer better quality materials and service many areas where there are no other manufacturers but smaller local manufacturers are often better value yet.

I'm not as familiar with Bedcrafters and they are one of many that I have yet to have a few more in depth conversations with.
In fairness to Verlo, they also have a separate comfort guarantee, but with less generous terms ((1) Guarantee Coverage is Pro-rated (6) Transportation, parts and labor costs may apply. ) Maybe I will ask them what determines the "may apply" part.....

I like Bedcrafters guarantee. A lot.

There are many local manufacturers who will rebuild a mattress for you at a "less than market" price but I have to agree that Bedcrafters are certainly making this an attractive part of their value in that they don't charge for their labor for the service (although you do have to get the mattress to them and pay for the materials they use). This would be similar to having a layered mattress with a zip cover where a layer could be exchanged if someone's needs were to change down the road.

I think they are smart to both offer this and promote it the way they do.

Phoenix

Your comment "Latex will only soften much more gradually over a longer period of time and softening and impressions are much less of an issue." just reinforces the value of targeting latex construction for longevity. One really would prefer to not have to use a guarantee due to early degradation of the mattress performance. How long should one expect a quality latex to last before there is a noticeable change in the feel? My S&F felt "like new" for a pretty short time from my recollection--maybe a couple years? Memory is fuzzy on things like this....it is a continuous and gradual change...

The 1.5" standard is a joke. I took the trouble to put a string across mine, and while you could subtly see the depressions, it was more like .5"...until you laid on it.... Even my fat cat is down in a noticeable hole when he sleeps on it. I did not measure the deflection under load, but it is probably 3 times the amount of when I lay on the middle that is not broken down, still being supportive and like sleeping on a ridge.
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 15 Dec 2011 22:53 #20

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Dino wrote:
Since talking to Tim, I haven't felt the need to travel any further. Very nice guy, knowledgeable and carries quality materials that I can test.

When asking him about his memory foam today on the phone, which he says comes from the Carpenter Company in Elkhart Indiana, he told me he will be getting the new gel foam in January. He sounded exicted about this new product, which he thinks he should have by the 10th, so i may just have to wait to check it out.

Given Phoenix has since found out Bedcrafters is no longer in business, combined with the MGM forum approved vendor status, your positive comments, and my emails exchanged with Tim,....well....I'm going to go see Tim and look no further if he has something that meets my needs. I think Custom Sleep would be the next one to consider further if working with Tim does not work out for some reason. I'd like to check out his upcoming gel products, but don't know if I can wait until January. This current bed is BAD, so probably will go with a current offering unless something changes and my visit is delayed. I have a guest bed that probably needs an upgrade, plus a hide-a-bed, so maybe for round 2 and 3.....
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 15 Dec 2011 23:22 #21

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Phoenix wrote:
Since we were talking about Bedcrafters, I thought I'd take the chance to talk with them this morning and find out more about what they were making and the materials and types of construction they were using.

Their number is out of service so I guess it's a moot point. I'll list them as out of business in my database. They are (sadly) probably another casualty of the current environment and recent industry trends including some of the more onerous regulations that made life more difficult for many smaller local factory direct manufacturers or even some of the larger ones such as one of the more recent "casualties" here.

Phoenix

Bedcrafters is apparently a fairly recent casualty. Found a review from March of this year and their web site coupon was dated November of 2010.

Anybody out there that ever bought in the past from The Sleep Shop in Highland, Indiana, another casualty? The reason I ask is, if so, and you still have one of their mattresses in service, I'd be interested to know who the manufacturer is. That was the best mattress I ever owned, repaired for free when it got lumpy and uncomfortable at something like year 8, and ultimately lasted about 15 years total. I recall it being a very reasonably price mattress--could not have afforded anything else back then. I'd seek out the manufacturer if still in business to at least scope out the offerings--maybe came from an Indiana independent still in business like Holder in Lafayette or some such? If Holder by some chance made their mattresses, I might rethink a visit to Lafayette.
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 16 Dec 2011 02:46 #22

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Hi Jim,

When I originally added Bedcrafters to my list I'm pretty sure they were still in business and that was early this year so I'm also guessing that they are only recently gone ... especially since their website is still up.

I don't know about "The Sleep Shop" in Indiana although I do know of one in Appleton, WI which makes their own mattresses. I did a search as well to see if they would come up and I didn't find any references to them although Quality Sleep Shop in highland/lagrange came up a few times but of course we already know about them.

There's some information about the 3 Holder mattresses in IN here and while the one in Lafayette is under 100 miles away, the other two are closer to Indianapolis.

There's another factory direct that's around 100 miles away www.michianamattress.com/ that used to be a King Koil licensee but now is a corporate owned mainly wholesale manufacturer but they do have a retail outlet for factory direct sales they opened recently. They are making a polyester fiber mattress core made from recycled bottles (as are some other manufacturers) so maybe they want some consumer feedback (or guinea pigs?) :)

Other than that there are several more in both IN and IL but they are all much further away.

Phoenix
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 17 Dec 2011 02:22 #23

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Good Luck Jim. Let me know how it goes.

If my wife wasn't so stuck on memory foam(because one of her family members bought a Serta icomfort), I would have already picked up a mattress from Tim. Luckily, I got her away from the icomfort and I still have a few weeks to... lets just say educate her.

btw Phoenix, have you heard anything about this new gel foam? I saw a sample of it. It just looked like memory foam with gel swirled into it.
Last Edit: 17 Dec 2011 02:31 by Dino.
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 31 Dec 2011 17:09 #24

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Phoenix wrote:
Hi Jim,

When I originally added Bedcrafters to my list I'm pretty sure they were still in business and that was early this year so I'm also guessing that they are only recently gone ... especially since their website is still up.

I don't know about "The Sleep Shop" in Indiana although I do know of one in Appleton, WI which makes their own mattresses. I did a search as well to see if they would come up and I didn't find any references to them although Quality Sleep Shop in highland/lagrange came up a few times but of course we already know about them.

There's some information about the 3 Holder mattresses in IN here and while the one in Lafayette is under 100 miles away, the other two are closer to Indianapolis.

There's another factory direct that's around 100 miles away www.michianamattress.com/ that used to be a King Koil licensee but now is a corporate owned mainly wholesale manufacturer but they do have a retail outlet for factory direct sales they opened recently. They are making a polyester fiber mattress core made from recycled bottles (as are some other manufacturers) so maybe they want some consumer feedback (or guinea pigs?) :)

Other than that there are several more in both IN and IL but they are all much further away.

Phoenix

I might contact "The Sleep Shop" in Appleton and ask if they had an outlet in Highland. If the same outfit and run the same way, a good place from my prior experience.

I perused the Michiana Mattress web site and they did not seem to offer the high quality in general of some other independents. I'd be more inclined to scope out Holder first if any reason to visit a second place after going to my green mattress. Unfortunately, due to the holiday madness, I have not made the trek...yet....
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 31 Dec 2011 17:13 #25

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Dino wrote:
Good Luck Jim. Let me know how it goes.

If my wife wasn't so stuck on memory foam(because one of her family members bought a Serta icomfort), I would have already picked up a mattress from Tim. Luckily, I got her away from the icomfort and I still have a few weeks to... lets just say educate her.

btw Phoenix, have you heard anything about this new gel foam? I saw a sample of it. It just looked like memory foam with gel swirled into it.

Let me know what you end up getting after waiting for the gel products to come in on the 10th, Dino. I may not make it up there until after that--not sure yet--want to visit during the week when Tim is there which complicates things due to work schedule.
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 01 Jan 2012 19:23 #26

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Hi jim1274,

From your earlier post which i missed ...
The 1.5" standard is a joke. I took the trouble to put a string across mine, and while you could subtly see the depressions, it was more like .5"...until you laid on it.... Even my fat cat is down in a noticeable hole when he sleeps on it. I did not measure the deflection under load, but it is probably 3 times the amount of when I lay on the middle that is not broken down, still being supportive and like sleeping on a ridge.

This "hits the nail on the head" and is the reason why most warranties are much more of a sales tool than anything else. Foam softening is not the same as body impressions and while softening can happen much earlier in the life of lower quality foams, body impressions are the last stages of foam breakdown. A warranty with the standard body impression exclusion means that long after the foam softens to the extent that it becomes unsuitable for sleeping on ... it is still not covered by the warranty. The most effective way to know how durable a mattress is and how long it will last is to know what is in every layer of a mattress. The weakest link of every mattress is the least durable layer and this is what will determine the life expectancy of the mattress. The closer to the top of a mattress (where it is most subject to mechanical stress) and the thicker this "weak" layer is, the more it will shorten the life of the mattress as a whole.
I might contact "The Sleep Shop" in Appleton and ask if they had an outlet in Highland. If the same outfit and run the same way, a good place from my prior experience.

I perused the Michiana Mattress web site and they did not seem to offer the high quality in general of some other independents. I'd be more inclined to scope out Holder first if any reason to visit a second place after going to my green mattress. Unfortunately, due to the holiday madness, I have not made the trek...yet....

I'd love to hear the outcome of a phone call with The Sleep Shop as I haven't had the chance to talk with them. They don't mention any specific materials that they use in their mattresses and it looks like they may only make more "traditional" and lower budget mattresses using innersprings and polyfoam but a phone call can certainly clarify this.

I also agree with you about Michiana and mentioned them more for reference purposes and completeness than as a "better choice". With the other options you have available ... I doubt that I would make a long trip to visit them. I personally believe that My Green Mattress is one of the better values across the country and it would be difficult to find even a local manufacturer who offers the same quality choices and value.
btw Phoenix, have you heard anything about this new gel foam? I saw a sample of it. It just looked like memory foam with gel swirled into it.

There are quite a few different varieties of "gel foams" (besides the version of gel which is used in buckling column gel layers) and some seem to be better than others based on discussions I have had with various manufacturers. The gel material itself is cooler than memory foam (because it is convective much like a marble countertop feels cool to the touch because it draws heat from your body) and has visco elastic qualities (displaces rather than compresses) and is very durable. It also has a different "feel" from memory foam and alters the qualities of memory foam that use it in various ways. Different gel formulations and combinations are creating a lot of interest among mattress manufacturers (as evidenced by this article) as they are all trying to create branding stories and the perception that their version is better than anyone else. Here is an overview of various general types ...

1. Some are "powdered gel" or particulates which are mixed into the memory foam itself. The idea is that the gel particles or "beads" will stay under a person's body while the memory foam itself "displaces". the downside to this type of gel memory foam is the risk that the gel particles like some other memory foam fillers may shorten the life of the memory foam itself because they are not a part of the actual memory foam structure>

2. Some are actual gel material which is added in very thin layers on the surface. This is often a "swirl" or "just a touch" on top of memory foam. If it is very thin it is more "label copy" because while the layers themselves may change how the memory foam itself acts and feels ... the laters are IMO too thin to take full advantage of the qualities of the gel material.

3. Some are gel material which is poured into pincores that have been punched into the base foam. This allows for thicker "pieces" of actual gel (as opposed to beads) which can compress more deeply with weight. This would appear to me to be a more durable and effective use of the gel (as the "pin core inserts" are thicker and react more independently from the memory foam) but of course it is also a compromise that uses less material and is still a gel and memory foam combination.

4. Some are thicker layers of gel which are laminated onto a layer of polyfoam or memory foam. These use more meaningful layers of gel where the gel itself can act as an actual layer rather than being part of something else. This is probably the best method to take fullest advantage of the qualities of the gel itself but because the gel material is expensive ... using it this way is also the most costly version.

5. There are also more coming out where the gel is actually poured into the memory foam and becomes part of the chemical structure and crosslinking of the foam itself rather than being more of a filler or addition. According to some conversations I have had ... this appears to strengthen the structure of the memory foam and actually make it more durable rather than less and changes some of the qualities of "pure" memory foam. An example that was just introduced by one of our members is in post #1 here and there are others as well.

There is a lot of shaking out still to happen over the next few years as time will tell how each of these performs over the long term. Overall there is a lot of interest and even excitement about gel materials or combinations in general but there is just as much hype as there is fact in the stories that are being told.

Phoenix
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Last Edit: 12 Jul 2012 16:17 by Phoenix.
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 03 Jan 2012 15:21 #27

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jim1274 wrote:
Let me know what you end up getting after waiting for the gel products to come in on the 10th, Dino. I may not make it up there until after that--not sure yet--want to visit during the week when Tim is there which complicates things due to work schedule.

I have emailed Tim to see if he still expects the delivery of the new gel foam on the 10th. Once I try the new foam, I will let you know what I decide upon.
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 04 Jan 2012 22:30 #28

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Phoenix wrote:
Hi jim1274,

From your earlier post which i missed ...

The 1.5" standard is a joke. I took the trouble to put a string across mine, and while you could subtly see the depressions, it was more like .5"...until you laid on it.... Even my fat cat is down in a noticeable hole when he sleeps on it. I did not measure the deflection under load, but it is probably 3 times the amount of when I lay on the middle that is not broken down, still being supportive and like sleeping on a ridge.

This "hits the nail on the head" and is the reason why most warranties are much more of a sales tool than anything else. Foam softening is not the same as body impressions and while softening can happen much earlier in the life of lower quality foams, body impressions are the last stages of foam breakdown. A warranty with the standard body impression exclusion means that long after the foam softens to the extent that it becomes unsuitable for sleeping on ... it is still not covered by the warranty. The most effective way to know how durable a mattress is and how long it will last is to know what is in every layer of a mattress. The weakest link of every mattress is the least durable layer and this is what will determine the life expectancy of the mattress. The closer to the top of a mattress (where it is most subject to mechanical stress) and the thicker this "weak" layer is, the more it will shorten the life of the mattress as a whole.

This pretty much confirms my decision to focus on a mattress with latex foam for the top "comfort" layers (unless maybe some combo hybrid memory and latex top layering provides the right characteristics)--am going to rule out anything with any poly foam in the top layers. Thanks.
Last Edit: 05 Jan 2012 00:17 by Phoenix. Reason: Fixed BB code
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 05 Jan 2012 02:08 #29

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Hi Jim,

Makes sense to me :)

Phoenix
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Re: Factory Direct Latex source near NW Indiana? 08 Jan 2012 16:16 #30

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Got an email from Tim at Quality Sleep Shop. He said that he has received the new gel foam, so I will be visiting him next week.

Phoenix, just wondering if you heard anything about the new gel foam?
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