Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for your comments. What you said makes a lot more sense. When lying on the mattresses I was describing how it felt in terms of pressure relief and stuff, but I know I already go into way too much detail here so I try to be as short and precise as possible so I don't take up even more of your time lol. Anyway, with the mattresses I didn't like I could tell right away or after a few minutes that it's not good because the lower back pain is either worse or still there, so I eliminate it right away. But with the ones that I liked, I said that they were "ok" because I didn't completely love it, but it wasn't hurting my back, but then my back hurt later on so I wasn't sure if it was trying a bunch of mattresses or what.

So with the 1"19, 2"24, 7"36- when I first layed on it before the guy got there, I layed on it for a minute and originally thought it was too hard or didn't feel "cushy" enough to me. But then when he got there and told me the layering I tried it again and felt differently lol. He left me alone and I layed on it for longer, he said that I was completely straight and that my shoulders and hips sank in just a bit, which was a good sign. So it wasn't hurting my back or causing discomfort, but I was worried that it wouldn't be supportive enough because it felt "soft", like I was sinking in a bit too much or that it wasn't holding me up enough. But he told me that I was straight and wasn't sinking in too far. I had also just gone from testing a 32/40 combo at the other manufacturer to a way different feel on 19. So of course I liked it better. But then I thought let me just try a 24 because maybe it would be a "cushy" feel too but feel a bit more supportive. But like I wrote earlier, he brought out 2" of 24 and put it on top of a bed with 19 top layer so I couldn't tell how it felt.

With the 3" of 24 and 6" of 32, she said I completely relaxed on that one and was straight too with the same shoulders and hip sink just a bit. The thing with that was it was a 3" topper on top of the 32, so that was a different feeling than what I tried with the other mattress that was already put together. She said that she would leave it like that and not sow it into the mattress because I wouldn't get the plush feel if it was all put together. But, I didn't really like the way the topper felt because it felt almost too plush. It wasn't hurting my back but I didn't like the feeling of being that in the mattress. So maybe if it wasn't a topper and everything was sown together I would've liked it better or at least got a different feel of it.

Were any of those descriptions better? I'm not sure if I said anything differently lol. Let me know and I'll try to explain it in more detail. Overall, without really getting a good feel of the 24, I'd say there was nothing really wrong with the nature's rest one. I liked that it "felt" soft, I just wasnt sure if I get it home that I'd wake up with back pain because it wasn't supportive enough. I guess I'm equating soft with not being supportive even though it can be.

Also, I saw in a post here a link for the custom mattress design website and I gave my measurements and spoke to him on the phone and he gave me pdf of what my "body profile" is. It's similar to the nature's rest. I'm attaching it in case you're interested in seeing it.

Hi beth819,

OK ... here's my "take" on where you are so far.

As you mention ... testing different mattresses one after the other can affect how each feels but based on your comments ... this layering seemed to work well. It appears that the upper layers provided good pressure relief for both your shoulders and hips and the firmer 36 underneath would be good for alignment. It's unlikely that with 3" of softer latex on top (and 1" of 19 over 2" of 24 isn't even as soft as many people of your height and weight would choose) it is easily enough to isolate you from the firmness of the support layer. The inch of 19 ILD would give you a little bit more "cush" on top but would not be significantly different from 3" of 24. Your initial impression of this was also good when you said ...

This tells me that it felt a little better than "OK" and as I mentioned the 1" of 19 ILD is not significant in terms of alignment.

This comfort layer is almost identical with the first one (the single inch of 19 wouldn't make a significant difference) but as you mentioned and felt ... a loose comfort layer feels softer than one that is built into the mattress. This is because the edges "pull in" more than with a comfort layer that is part of the mattress. This is the same reason that pillowtops feel softer than a similar mattress would feel with the same components but didn't have the separate pillowtop. the support layer on this one is slightly softer at 32 ILD vs 36 ILD and while the difference here is not that significant either ... the first one would have a little better support. I have no idea why she believed that with a 3" comfort layer that 36 would be too firm and I think that your own experience confirmed that it wasn't. The idea that you would somehow "bottom out" with a single inch of 19 ILD in place of an inch of 24 ILD in a 3" comfort layer is also really strange.

Since it seems that these are very similar mattresses and that your alignment and pressure relief was fine on both ... plus the fact that this one seemed to be significantly more would make my choice between these two very clear.

If anything ... the Natures Rest would be more supportive because most of the support comes from the deeper layers of the mattress and the difference in the comfort layers between these two is minimal at best. Softness and thickness in the upper layers is more about pressure relief and only has a secondary effect on support. It's when the support layers are too soft (or the comfort layers are too thick and soft) that alignment can be much more affected.

While the CSD does use some "areas" of similar ILD as the other two ... this would be a very different mattress than either of them. Layer thickness and zoning makes a significant difference in both pressure relief and alignment and since this is "customized" for your specific body shape and measurements and because it has a very different layering scheme from either of the other two (and can be adjusted after you've slept on it if necessary) ... this would be a much different mattress. While the differences may not be so important if you are happy with one or both of the other two ... it would be like the difference between custom fitted pair of shoes or an outfit that fit you perfectly down to the finest detail and an off the shelf pair of shoes or outfit that worked well but wasn't "perfect" in every way. Whether the difference in price is worth it is of course part of what each person has to decide for themselves based on their own personal "value equation" and their budget.

So it seems to me that the Nature's Rest has the best local value and based on your comments also seems to be good for pressure relief and alignment and also appears to be your preference in terms of how it feels.

Based on this ... I would think that the only thing left to choose is whether the CSD should be in the running and/or is "worth" the greater price to you and of course part of this would be based on exactly how good you feel about your local choices.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Thanks for your input. The CSD is too expensive but using that as a comparison, the ILDs are somewhat similar to the Nature's Rest one so at least I'm in the range like you said. The only thing is the pdf has 2" of 19, but if I add that extra inch I think it might be too plush for me. When you wrote that the 19 & 24 isn't even as soft as other people like me would pick, just curious as to what others have picked? Not that I'm going to change my mind, was just curious.

I'm going back on Wed to test it out one more time and buy it, but the receptionist wasn't able to tell me what the exchange policy was so I have to find that out. She said something about after a year I can get a refund of 90% and then two years 80%, but I have to talk to him.

My other question is, overtime are the comfort layers going to give/wear out to where I would only feel the firm support core or if it would feel firmer overtime? I'm assuming it won't but just making sure.

Hi Beth819,

I know how tempting it is to make comparisons based on ILD alone but layer thickness really does make just as big a difference as ILD. for example ... your "softer" CSD version has 14 under the shoulders for the first 2" and then 3" of 24 ILD under that so the top 3" would "average" out (although this is somewhat misleading) to about 17. The "firmer" CSD version would average out to about 21. With an inch of 19 and 2" of 24 it's about 22. With the 3" of 24 it's 24.

Under the hips ... the CSD soft" averages out to about 22 while the firmer version averages out to about 29.

So while the "shoulder" section of the CSD averages out (and again this is misleading) to a fair bit softer or a little softer than the "unilayers" in both versions ... the hip section is either the same (with much softer under the shoulders) or significantly firmer (with about the same under the shoulders).

Generally a difference of less than 3-4 ILD is not that noticeable. In addition to this ... the thickness of each layer and the thickness of the mattress itself (thicker is softer) makes a difference so the temptation to make comparisons with different different thicknesses or even between mattresses where the mattresses are different thicknesses can be misleading.

It's not uncommon at all for people to choose 3" of 19 ILD when their weight is lighter and in some cases even lower. Some people find even 24 ILD is too firm. Having said that ... people who are heavier may find 24 is too soft and prefer 28 or even higher in the top layers. It really depends on the person, their weight, and on how much they like to sink into their mattress. In general though ... 19 - 24 is about the "average" that most people seem to typically prefer. In my own case (195 lbs and 6'5") and with my personal preferences ... 24 is "right on the edge" of feeling too firm although I prefer a softer feeling mattress and my weight is well distributed.

This almost sounds more like the policy for a whole mattress rather than an adjustment so I would definitely ask about any costs involved in changing out a layer or making a comfort adjustment if you need it.

Latex is the most durable of all foams so you can safely purchase it based on how you want it to feel and it will stay that way with very gradual softening over a much longer period of time than polyfoam or memory foam which go through an initial softening period over the first few weeks. With latex ... the feel will stay consistent over the long term with only very gradual softening. The ticking may stretch or loosen a bit initially though (depending on what it is made of and how it's made) so this could make a bit of a difference in the first few weeks.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

So if the CSD version is 22/29 in the hips, then what does the natures rest version equal out to be?

If the natures rest in the shoulders averages out to be a 22, maybe that's why I don't feel like its too soft since the 19 isn't thick enough to be a true 19. At least I think that's what you're getting at.

3" of 19 is common for lighter people? Is that just the top layer? What about the rest of the layers? I think I prefer thinner layers but I also didn't try 2" of 19 so maybe I would like that too. I can already tell that 3" of anything in the top layer would make me feel too much into the mattress and I don't think my back likes that feeling. 

I remember you wrote something about preferences of people who are "bony" but I can't remember what you said. My Internet went out and I'm on my phone so I can't check. Anyway, I am bony on my hips and shoulders, so I'm not sure how that would affect anything. I hope that with the natures rest there's enough cushion to where I won't feel the support core. Like I said before, my back didn't hurt but obviously that wasn't long enough to tell for sure.

Hi beth819,

My sense of things is that you are perhaps paying too much attention to the specs of the mattress and not quite enough to your own experiences in laying on a mattress.

In general there are two sets of specs that are important.

The first set of specs is the ones that tell you about the quality of the materials used in a mattress. This will tell you about how long the mattress will last and keep the ability to relieve pressure, provide good alignment, and provide the preferences you like over time. In your case ... all the materials that are used in the mattresses you are testing are high quality and durable.

The second set of specs is the ones that are about ILD (softness firmness) and layering that are all about providing PPP. These are only helpful for two reasons.

The first reason they can be helpful is to give you a good starting point for testing mattresses so that you don't spend a lot of time testing mattresses that aren't suitable for you. You have already narrowed down your choices to the range of ILD and layering that is suitable. From this point on ... if you are using quality materials ... then the starting point needs to be replaced with your own testing experiences and the specs need to be forgotten. It doesn't matter what the ILD's or layer thickness is if the materials have high quality/durability if they provide good pressure relief, alignment, and fit your preferences.

The second reason they can be helpful is if the mattresses you are testing don't "fit" your needs and preferences because they can be used to give an indication of what can be changed and the direction of the change that may lead to better pressure relief, posture and alignment, and preferences. For example ... if a specific mattress uses a certain ILD or layering and it isn't working for you in one or more areas ... then knowing the "specs" of the ILD and layering can help to decide on the next mattress that is worth testing.

The quality specs are important to measure value and durability.

The specs that lead to PPP are only important to provide a starting point and to help with the direction of any changes that may be necessary to improve PPP. If your PPP is good ... then these specs become meaningless. they have nothing to do with the quality of a mattress and your own experiences in testing are far more important than the PPP "specs" in determining how suitable any mattress may be for you.

So if the mattresses you have tried are providing good Pressure relief for your shoulders and hips, Posture and alignment in all your sleeping positions, and provide the preferences you like ... then ILD and layer thickness is completely unimportant if the mattresses you are testing are using high quality materials (which they are).

My understanding is that the Nature's rest provides all of these. Is this correct? If this is correct and there are no pressure issues, alignment issues, or preference issues ... and if it is within your budget and the value is better than other available choices that also provide good PPP, then you have found your mattress. If there is an "issue" of some kind with the Nature's rest (that isn't based on the specs or theory but on your actual PPP experience) only then would the specs be useful to know to help decide on what the next possibility for testing might be to "correct" any pressure issues, alignment issues, or preference issues.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

I am paying attention to my own experience laying on mattresses, rather than specs. Because I haven't layed on anything where the PPP is perfect or pretty close, I'm taking what I thought was ok(soft,not hurting my back,etc) and trying to modify a bit so I can meet the needs of my PPP better. What I experienced at the first manufacturer was completely different to the nature's rest, but I only tried one mattress that was already made up, not different combinations to possibly modify the feel of the comfort layers, etc. So while the one I tried out felt good enough, if there's something that is better for me, I wanted to try it before making a large purchase and possibly not being able to exchange if there's a problem.

The issue with the nature's rest is that after I left my back still hurt. I know I can't make a decision based on that, but it's still a bit concerning when the only reason I am doing this in the first place is to help alleviate my back pain. The reason why I love my cousin's mattress is because after laying on it for even 5-10 mins makes a significant difference in my back pain. So like you said I know the high quality materials are there, but I'm not 100% sure the pressure relief is there and that's why I'm hesistant. I'm guessing I just have to bite the bullet and try it but it's still a nerve wracking decision. I'm scared that when I buy it tomorrow and get it and sleep on it, I'm going to be in the worst pain or I'm going to hate it (after the adjustment period) and wish I had my old mattress back. I'm sure that's not going to happen and I'll probably love it, but I'm sure you understand the freaking out part lol.

Hi beth819,

OK ... I understand ... I thought your experience on the Nature's rest was better than it appears to be.

Your back pain could have been from some of the wide variety of mattresses you have been trying and my sense was that you were trying to match a set of "perfect" specs rather than "perfect" PPP. When you mentioned it before ... it was after your initial testing on a lot of different combinations before you had tested the nature's rest and you hadn't mentioned it since.

I went through this whole thread and I'll outline some of my thinking in the hopes you may get a sense of some of the "patterns" I'm seeing that seem to point to your most logical layering. I'll also ask a few questions along the way in the hopes that they may clarify why you think the Nature's Rest may not be quite right for you.

When you lay on the Nature's rest ... did you experience any back pain while you were on it or was it only after a day of testing different mattresses? Was this the same type of back pain you mentioned before you tested the Nature's rest and you had tried a bunch of different mattresses at the first place you went to? (you mentioned back pain in post # 9 and #15 before you found the nature's rest). At this point you had been testing different mattresses with memory foam, latex, and polyfoam so I attributed the back pain to this. I didn't realize it had also happened later on.

It appears from your feedback that you were in alignment on both of your 2 main candidates (Nature's Rest and West Palm Beach) which isn't surprising because both the 32 ILD and the 36 ILD would be firm enough to give you good support and the comfort layers are almost identical.

Your first comment about the nature's rest was in post #19 here and it seemed to be exactly what you were looking for. The softness/pressure relief of memory foam with the support of the firmer latex underneath it.

Also in post #19 ... you mentioned trying 2" of 19 over 32 Dunlop (which would be similar to the firmer Talalay) and it appeared you didn't like this ... probably because 2" is too thin and would create pressure issues. This leads me to think that 3" of 19 - 24 ILD would be better (and both of your main options are in the 24 range rather than the 19).

You also seemed to like the PLB romance which had 2" of 19 ILD but that was over a little firmer "medium" or 28 ILD middle layer. Your comments seemed to indicate that this was also OK but not as much as the Nature's rest (although you could clarify if this is not the case). This would also be very similar to the other two (Nature's Rest and West Palm Beach) in terms of the average of the top 3" of pressure relief and in the support core as well although the PLB would "start off" softer and get firmer a little faster than the Nature's rest. That 3 different mattresses with similar comfort and support layers (including the PLB) seemed to be OK and give you good pressure relief and support seemed to point to that this was a pretty good construction for you.

When you went to West Palm beach to test the last mattress you tried (post #27) ... you tried 3" of 28 over 6" of 32 and you mentioned that you thought this was too much (thickness or firmness?) and wanted to try 2" of 24 (which would be firmer than 3" of 28) but didn't mention any symptoms of why it may be too much or whether you meant thickness or firmness. This was the same thickness as the two you liked except much firmer in the comfort layer so I was assuming it was probably too firm rather than too thick. You asked me then if I thought 19 was too soft for your bulging disc (I had already mentioned that 19 was closer to a more "typical" comfort layer for you and you have really only tried comfort layers in the range of 24 anyway) so this too seemed to indicate that you were starting to focus more on "theory" and on specs than on your testing experience. (I didn't know that you are still experiencing back pain). I assumed you were asking about the Nature's rest which has an inch of 19 in it but this is insignificant and it is more like a 24. In a comfort layer ... 24 would be a little on the firm side for many people of your height and weight but because you are slimmer and straighter ... it seemed to work well for you (on 3 different mattresses).

This was re-inforced in post # 29 when you mentioned ...

because this seemed to also be based on theory and you didn't mention though what symptoms you were feeling that made you think it may have been too soft. Again ... don't forget that the comfort layer is more like a 24 not 19.

In post #31 ... you mention this ...

This is different from your original description of the mattress which was more like a WOW ... but even here it seems like the comfort layer was good (no pressure points) and that the firmness also seemed to be OK for your back. You did mention as I mentioned that you were "worried" that it was too soft but I didn't see any "symptoms" to indicate why as it appeared that you were in alignment and that the softness you were feeling was coming from the top layers which is necessary for pressure relief. You also mentioned that this was after testing a mattress that was almost certainly way too firm (32 over 40) so it would likely be safe to assume that the subjective feeling of being too soft was just a result of that.

If you really do think that this may be too soft though (and this needs to be you telling me rather than the other way around) ... could you let me know which sleeping position it felt this way. Can you describe why you feel that it may be too soft? This might help me understand what you are referring to. "Soft" by itself without knowing if you mean pressure relief or support or the area it may be too soft is not really specific enough for me to know what you mean.

Later in that same post ... was when you mentioned you tried 3" of 24 over a 6" 32 core (which would be the same effective comfort layer but a softer support layer) and this too seemed to work well so it seems to re-inforce that 3" is the right thickness and 24 (which they both basically have) seems to be a good comfort ILD. Because both mattresses seemed to provide good alignment ... I would choose the one with the firmer support layer (the Nature's Rest) because it may provide slightly better support.

This was also where you mentioned the CSD design and when you later started comparing it to what you had tried ... IMO this was doing more to confuse the issue and focus on the specs of a mattress you hadn't tried than help.

As I mentioned ... the CSD design is far more complex and I wouldn't consider it as something comparable with the one's you've tried or that helpful in telling how suitable the ones you have tried may be ... partly because you haven't laid on it, partly because the combination of layer thicknesses and ILD's are more different than similar ... and partly because it is zoned which is a different type of construction. It is based on a completely different design theory. It also has a firmer 5" overlap where the firmer part of the top layer overlaps the softer lower layer which would increase support in the small of your back. Overall ... trying to compare this type of construction without actually laying on it will do much more to complicate things than clarify it.

You also mentioned in post #35 ...

Which also seemed to re-inforce the idea that the feeling that it might be too soft was momentary and a result of other things.

All of this together seems to me to point to a comfort layer of 3" in the range of 24 (which both of them as well as the PLB you tried are very close to) as being good for you and that either a support core of 32 or 36 both seem to work well in which case I would choose the firmer one because the thicker 3" comfort layer sees to isolate you well enough from it's firmness. This didn't take into account any back issues you have had since trying these however since I thought that was from early on.

So to clarify anything I've missed ... it may help to see how you would answer these questions.

Does the Nature's rest provide good pressure relief in your shoulders when you are laying on your side completely relaxed.

Does it provide good pressure relief for your hips when you are laying on your side completely relaxed?

Does it provide good support on your back (no strain or pain when you are completely relaxed)?

Does it also seem to provide good support on your side (again no strain or pain when you are completely relaxed)?

If there are any "no's" ... can you tell me exactly which one is a no and where you are feeling any symptoms and what they are?

Can you connect any back pain you are feeling to a mattress or is it something that you feel when you are more active or your back is stressed overall?

If you have back pain and then you lay on your cousin's mattress ... does the pain go away every time? Does it come back when you are off it for a while?

Have you tried any of your current choices when you had back pain before you walked into the store. What happens to your back pain when you lay on the mattress? How long does it it take to come back?

Maybe all of this can help to clarify exactly what if anything may need adjusting.

I hope this hasn't been too "pointed" but I'm having trouble understanding exactly what it is that is making you think that the Nature's Rest isn't quite right for you when everything I have read seems to point in that direction.

I would also ask them exactly what your options are if you try the mattress for 30 days or so and you feel it needs some type of change after the normal adjustment period. This way you may feel better about your choices and taking the "risk" that involves any new mattress purchase. This way you can at least have the peace of mind of knowing what your options are if you do sleep on it for a while and something shows up that you couldn't have known beforehand.

Phoenix

Wow, thanks for going into detail like that. You didn't have to do that for me. You couldve just told me that I'm crazy and to go buy the bed and I wouldve been fine with that too haha.

First, about my back pain- the reason I started this whole mattress journey was because I was waking up everyday with constant back pain when usually it's not really everyday or if it is, exercises, heat, advil, etc will help. I mean there's always some kind of pain there but it hasn't been this bad since I first injured it a few years ago. So when I went to the first manufacturer my back was worse and then I went to biscayne(nature's rest) 5 days later, and I had taken one of my two toppers off my bed and that helped too, so my back pain was already less when I tested the nature's rest. But yes I agree with you that the back pain before was from trying out a bunch of different combinations, but it was also on top of the back pain I already had. So when laying on the nature's rest, it didn't add to the back pain but it didn't take it away either.

Oh and I just wanted to mention that the west palm isn't a candidate. It's more expensive and she even told me to go back to biscayne because it's cheaper. So my only option is the nature's rest, unless I ask to see a different combination.

With the PLB, it's not that I liked the nature's rest better, I think it felt kind of the same. I didn't spend enough time laying on it to really get a good feel and I felt uncomfortable staying there for a long time because the salesman knew I wasnt buying anything and was annoyed that I "knew" more than him lol. I think it did feel a little softer and then firmer than the nature's rest but I didn't lay on it long enough to say which I preferred. It actually felt kind of similar to the icomfort though I don't know why.

At west palm, I meant too much thickness. I tried 3" of 24 over 6" of 32. Did I write 3" of 28? That was a mistake then. I didn't like the thickness of it because I felt like I was sinking in too much but I don't know if that was because it's a topper or what. Laying on it after I while I felt discomfort. Not really pain necessarily but my back did hurt after and I didn't feel like it was holding me up enough. That's why I asked if maybe 2" might be better and then maybe I wouldnt be sinking in as much.

I orginally thought the nature's rest might be too soft because when laying on my side I was sinking in a bit. I know that it's normal, but I thought that it would eventually cause me pain or not be supportive enough if it was soft. I was equating that with how memory foam sinks in and how that caused me pain and thinking that softness=not supportive but now I know that's not true.

Yeah I agree, I'm not considering the CSD. That just confused me even more.

To answer the other questions:

Does the nature's rest provide good pressure relief in my shoulders? I didn't even test for this. My neck is messed up anyway and this whole time I've just been focused on making sure my back feels good which is what is most important to me. I can test that out tomorrow.

Is there good pressure relief for my hips when laying on my hips/side? I don't know. That's the problem. I can say that it doesn't add to the pain or cause extra pain.

Is there good support on my back? Same answer. When I eliminated other mattresses it was because when laying on my back it hurt right away. With this it didnt, but the pain didn't completely go away either.

Yes, I can connect back pain to when I sleep on my mattress, other mattresses, etc. If it's hard or uncomfortable I can tell right away and won't be able to sleep and it'll hurt even worse in the morning. I'll also feel pain when I'm more active, poor shoe support, etc. I can tell the difference in my back pain and which thing causes it if that makes any sense.

Yes, when laying on my cousin's mattress the pain goes away every time. It's crazy. She lives in ny, so when I go to visit her my back pain is gone the whole time I'm there. If I'm walking a lot, which is different than what I'm used to living in florida, the pain will come back but nowhere near as bad, and if I lay down for a few minutes after that I'm fine.

I already answered this question at the top but I'll just add to it. Yes, I had back pain before I walked into the stores. With the mattresses that I eliminated the back pain would get worse immediately.

I hope I answered all of your questions. Now that I've read your comments I'm starting to think maybe I was confused and what I thought was too soft maybe wasnt soft enough? But I don't think that's right because the PLB has 2" of 19 but also got firmer faster. So maybe not. I don't know, I'm even more confused now lol.

Thanks again for your help. I really do appreciate it.

Hi beth819,

I think the picture is starting to get a little clearer ... at least for me

Sometimes it's difficult to connect all the dots with the limitations of words on a forum trying to express a much bigger picture. It's a little like looking at a few parts of a painting and not knowing exactly what the missing parts are and what the whole painting looks like when everything is connected.

If you were a pure back sleeper ... I would definitely be suggesting you consider only 2" of latex in the comfort layer to keep you closer to the support layers and better alignment but being a combination sleeper ... that would carry the risk that it wouldn't be thick enough to relieve pressure on your hips and especially your shoulders when you were on your side. It could also result in your hips sinking in far enough but your shoulders being "held up" too high which could also lead to twisting and misalignment of the spine. If a mattress is too firm on top ... then it's common to twist the body to compensate and twisting of the spine is also a form of misalignment which can lead to pain.

Having said all that ... it's clear to me that your alignment is a primary issue with your back and this would be especially important when sleeping on your back. If you were to go with a 2" comfort layer ... then if it wasn't thick/soft enough you would still have the option of adding a thin topper to add some pressure relief as needed.

My "gut" still says that the way it is has the best odds of working well with the 3" comfort layer (1' 19 and 2" 24) over the extra firm support layer but if you are concerned and your testing gives you reason to suspect that this really is too thick and your pelvis is sinking down too far on your back, then the thinner layer is an option that could be adjusted after you have tried it for a while.

I'd sure like to know the construction of your cousin's mattress ... it would make a good model of something that you know works well! Maybe she can find out the model and let you know (it should be on the law tag).

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Good! I'm glad one of us is clearer haha. I'm still confused I'm pretty much a side sleeper, with only ocassionally on my back when I can't take the pain anymore on my left side, and even then I end up going back on my side. But I am in my bed a lot on my back, whether that's watching tv, on my laptop, on the phone, etc. But sleeping wise, I'd say that if there was no back pain I'd be a pure side sleeper. Don't know if that makes a difference, but I know I didn't describe that before so I'm adding it now.

Also, when I test these mattresses, I always start by laying on my back because I can tell right away if it causes me pain. They always tell me to turn on my side since that's how I sleep, but I take the time first to lay on my back and then switch.

He told me that he could take the 1" of 19 off and just do 24 and 36, and the only reason he adds the 19 is to give the bit of softness and pressure relief. But I think I'd rather go with the 19 because now I'm worried this isnt soft enough instead of it being too soft. Am I crazy?

I know!!! I wish I knew what was in her mattress too. I do know the name of the model, it's King Koil, Aruba. I've been searching online for a couple years now of who has it, or at least to find out what's in it, and I can't find anything. Last year I called king koil, got the number for the distributor and sales guy here and he told me they don't make it anymore but that they were coming out with something similiar soon. I kept calling and it kept getting delayed because of the fire blocker stuff I think, and it was going to be called Contour Response by Comfort Solutions. So this time around I called the stores he told me it would be in, and no one has it. I also looked it up online and don't see anything for it. I saw something with the name, but it has coils in it. When I told you in an earlier post what was in her mattress, that was from her reading me the law tag. She first bought the bed because she has a back problem as well, and tested a bunch of beds and finally decided on it and bought from 1800mattress. Before I ever layed on it she would always tell me how obsessed she was with her bed and everytime she sleeps somewhere else she says how much she misses her bed. I always thought she was nuts, until I layed on it. I wanted her to sell me hers and she could go buy a new one, but obviously not. She doesn't know what she's going to do when she needs a new one since they don't make it anymore.

Hi beth819,

I had an interesting conversation today with Blue Bell Mattress Company who is the licensee that makes the Natural Elegance line. I told them I was helping someone with back issues who had a relative with the old Aruba model which was "perfect" and asked them if they could tell me the specs. She said flatly NO ... she will have to re-select (meaning try all their new mattresses to find one you like)! I then asked here if she could tell me if they had an equivalent in their current Natural Elegance line. Again she said no ... she will have to re-select! I said there must be someone there who would know which was the rough equivalent or who would give the specs of an old model they don't even make any more to help someone. Her answer again was ... it was a latex mattress. I said "I know" but I was hoping to have a rough idea of the ILD and layering over the polyfoam. She then said that any one of the new models would do. When I told her that wasn't true and that I was knowledgeable in mattress design ... she asked me what company I worked for. I said that it was just private venture but I wanted to help someone ... she said again that she will have to reselect ... have a nice day sir ... and hung up on me .

It's also interesting to me that Blue Bell were also the ones that tried to "steal" the name of this website when I first mentioned the name "The Mattress Underground" in a fictional story on another forum.

I''m sharing this to give an idea of the difference between major brands and smaller manufacturers who actually want people to have this information. I have had dealings with Blue Bell before and IMO ... they are one of the "worst" in terms of their company culture.

In any case ... we know that the Aruba had a polyfoam base (some of their other models had a zoned dunlop base) which means that in latex terms an educated guess would be that the 36 ILD would be a very rough equivalent.

I also know that the old Natural Elegance lineup had some very soft talalay latex on top (they called it medium soft, plush, and ultra plush) but there is no way to know how much the layer thickness was and the layer ILD's. My "guess" would be that the firmest of them were about 24 ILD and that many were softer. They also had quiltable latex along with a dacron fiber in the quilting in some.

One of them called the Paradise box Top (with the thickest comfort layer that I know of) had the following specs ...

7" high density latex support core -1" Medium Soft Latex Topper -1" Medium Soft Latex Topper -2" of Ultra Plush Talalay Latex topper -1" Latex Quilting -2 oz. of dacron quilting to the surface.

Another one called the Key West had ...

7" high density latex support core -1" Medium Soft Latex Topper -2 Oz of quilted layer of dacron fiber.

Another one called the Grand Bahamas had ...

-7" high density latex support core with air flow -1" Medium Soft Latex Topper -1" Plush Latex Topper -1" Plush Latex Topper -2" Ultra Plush Latex Topper -Half inch quilting latex and dacron on the quilted surface.

All of these had the Dunlop latex core (Not the firm polyfoam that your cousin has) and as you can see they used a combination of layering over the support core of varying thickness and ILD's .

My "guess" would be that medium soft is 24 ILD ... Plush is 19 ILD ... and Ultra Plush is 14 ILD.

So this goes to show that your 2" of 24 and an inch of 19 is on the firm end of the scale that they were using in most of their mattress comfort layers but what is completely unknown if the thickness of the upper layers in the Aruba.

Their current models use completely different layering and materials than the old ones.

So where you are is about as close as I can "guess" as to what might work for you. As you mentioned ... what you have been testing (in the range of 3" of 24) is about as firm as I would go and if anything your cousin's mattress may be a bit softer on top (although this is not known). This would put you in the range we were talking about at the beginning which is on the lower end of the "average" range of 19 - 24.

Given that you are mostly a side sleeper and that a mattress that will help you stay on your side longer would be the goal ... I believe that a 3" comfort layer would be much more suitable than 2" (which would likely be too firm and lead to more back sleeping or "twisting".

I would also make an "educated guess" that what you have (1" 19 and 2" 24) is as firm as you should go.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Wow, what a B! Was she purposely not helpful because she didn't want to tell you what was in their mattresses or do you think she really doesn't know? Thanks for trying anyway, I appreciate it!!

When you said this:

Given that you are mostly a side sleeper and that a mattress that will help you stay on your side longer would be the goal ... I believe that a 3" comfort layer would be much more suitable than 2" (which would likely be too firm and lead to more back sleeping or "twisting".

You've mentioned this before and I always forget to ask, the 3" comfort layer being more suitable than 2". Do you mean the 1" of 19 and the 2" of 24= 3"? I'm getting confused in thinking that 3" means just one comfort layer.

I went to biscayne today and unfortunately the guy just sold the floor sample of the one I was going to get so I couldn't test it again. I was a bit annoyed as it's a bit of a drive and I wish he wouldve told me before I went down there, but he apologized and I guess they are really busy rearranging the showroom because they are about to give a presentation. Anyway, I told him what you said about the inch of 19 being basically insignificant and he said absolutely and it just adds a bit of softness to relieve pressure on hips and shoulders. So he said maybe 2" of 19 on top instead of the 1" will be a little better. He didnt have that, but he showed me a 3" of 19 topper over a 2" of 24 just to test. That felt more plush, but still supportive and he said my alignment was ok, but I couldnt help but feel it was too thick. Then when I got in the car my back started hurting. Ugh. But I'm going back next week when he'll have the bed that I like back on display and I asked if he could get another inch of 19 so I can test it both ways. He said yes. But now the problem is there's no return or exchange policy of any kind. Only if it's defective in some way. He said it's because he can't re-sell it if I return it. I said I know but some places have a comfort exchange at least and he said thats why you pay above retail for those places. But some of the other manufacturers had a comfort exchange too.

So now I don't know what to do. If I buy either one from him I'm stuck if I don't like it. Do people buy mattresses from manufacturers with no return/exchange policy? I'm really not comfortable with that. The only thing I can think of is are there other manufacturers that sell online or ship here that do have exchanges? Maybe since I know what I want (well, narrowed down to two maybe) it wouldn't be so bad to order something online? I don't know, what are your thoughts on this?

Also, the last line when you said that's as firm as I should go, do you think I should try a different combination or like it'll be just right. I know, I know only I can make that decision but knowing a little about my cousin's mattress now might change some things.

Hi beth819,

They absolutely know. Like all the major manufacturers though ... they don't let consumers know as a matter of policy so that the stores that sell their mattresses can continue to sell based on vague and subjective notions of "comfort", marketing stories that are supplied by the manufacturer, and so that meaningful comparisons with other mattresses are impossible. This is very typical for the larger manufaturers who are more loyal to the retail outlets and the profit margins they make than they are to consumers.

Yes. A "comfort layer" is the top few inches of a mattress that is mostly responsible for pressure relief and can be one or several actual layers. Perhaps "comfort zone" would be a more accurate description. Mattresses will generally have a comfort layer or layers, a support layer or layers, and sometimes a "transition" layer which is half and half (partly for pressure relief and partly for support).

I generally agree that local manufacturers shouldn't have a return or refund policy because it would add to the cost of their mattress unnecessarily because as he says ... they can't re-sell it (ethically at least). It would generally encourage consumers to buy a mattress without enough due diligence and lead to returns based on subjective whims which would increase the price for everyone. Online dealers are a different story because a consumer doesn't have a chance to test them first so an exchange or refund is an important issue.

Having said that ... I am a big fan of a local manufacturer who offers a one time layer change or "comfort adjustment" if longer term experience on a mattress makes it clear that the initial decision wasn't quite right. There are several ways that a mattress can be fine tuned without this (with mattress pads, protectors, bases, and toppers) but sometimes a layer exchange is the best option. While this service would also increase the cost of a mattress overall ... I believe that it is a very desirable option for a manufacturer to offer. Each of them decides on their own policies though because it's always a tradeoff between a service offered and the price of a mattress and most of them run on much tighter profit margins. From a consumer perspective ... the option to make changes after a purchase from a local manufacturer and how important this is, is part of each persons "value equation". For some it may not matter ... for others it could be a factor that "kills the deal".

There are several good online outlets that are members of this site and that specialize in shipping mattresses across the country. They are listed in post #21 here.

Of these ... two of them ... mattresses.net and SleepEz make a mattress which is almost identical to what you are considering. Mattresses.net has a 6" base layer with a 3" layer on top (3" needs to be requested instead of their standard 2") while SleepEz has 3 x three inch layers. The double layer can have different base ILD's and the top is 22 ILD (which can also be ordered "non standard" if desired) while with the 3 layer mattress ... all three layers can be customized in terms of ILD. One is a little lower cost and the other offers more flexibility but both offer great value and layer exchanges for a very reasonable cost if something needs to be adjusted after purchase. Because of the SleepEz 3 layer construction ... you can also change the order of the layers to make adjustments without needing to exchange a layer.

In addition to this ... there are a couple of other options available.

One of these is Overnight mattress which offers a polyfoam base with a 3" top layer of latex which can be chosen for any ILD (including 19 and 24). They offer a layer exchange for the top layer after purchase as well.

Dreamfoam Bedding also offers a polyfoam/latex mattress with a 3" comfort layer that can be chosen for ILD (including 19 and 24), has 1.5" of soft polyfoam quilting on top (similar to the dacron in your cousin's mattress) and has great value but there is no refund if you make a mistake (which is part of the reason it's so inexpensive).

I meant that IMO and based on your feedback ... I wouldn't choose a comfort layer firmer than 24 ILD in the top 3". A little softer than this would likely be fine IMO based on "averages" and your feedback but because I can't feel what you were feeling on the mattress ... your own "gut feel" is more important then any "theory at a distance". I don't know the layering of your cousin's mattress so while it may have included softer latex ... it's also possible that it didn't so I would tend to use your experiences on "known" layers as a reference point.

Phoenix

Hi Phoenix,

Are there people that have posted here that bought a mattress with no return policy? Is the majority happy with their decision or regret it? Just wondering.

I called mattresses.net and sleepez. Mattresses.net I was kind of confused with what the guy was telling me. He said I could either have 2" of 22 and 6" of 28 or 33, or 3" of 19 and 6" of 28. I think that's what he said. Wouldn't any of those be too firm? I don't think I like 3" of one ILD, I think it's too thick. So if I were to choose 2" of 22 wouldnt I feel the 28 more or is that even firm enough? I don't know, it sounds confusing compared to the 3 layers I was trying before.

Same with sleepez, he said he sells a lot of 2"of 20, 3" of 30, 3" of 40. Or if I wanted to go softer he said, 2" of 20, 3" of 20, 3" of 30. How is the support core of all those only 3"? I'm confused with the ILD's of those too compared to what I've tested so far. He also said he can get any ILD, but I'm not sure if that's still going to be a 3" core or not.

Both of those are much different than what I've tested so far, and I'm not saying what I tested is better, I guess those combinations make more sense to me than these do because I haven't seen them before.

I'm going to call a few more on that list tomorrow.