We just purchased a new sherwood lumina spirit plush (nonpillowtop). It has 800 individually pocketed coils and an undisclosed amount of polyfoam, probably at least 3 inches. (Some online specs available at sit n sleep.) My wife and I are both 5'7" and about 140-160lbs. We have had it for a little over two weeks now and it has softened up quite a bit. Our hips sink into the mattress more than our shoulders. I actually wish my shoulders sank in more. I like a very plush, cloudlike sleep surface but am wondering if we should have gotten the extra firm and added a rejuvenite plush topper. Urban mattress here in Austin offers a 30 day comfort exchange so we can still trade it. It feels very comfortable other than some shoulder pressure but when we get out of bed in the morning it seems like we are climbing out of a small hole. (Durability?) Im also wondering if the extra firm with a 3 inch topper wouldnt be plush enough since the coils possibly arent the same. Thanks for any suggestions and help!
-Stephen-

Hi bettinamonk,

While it's hard to make an assessment without knowing the specifics of the polyfoam in the mattress (density and ILD), it's pretty safe to assume that there is at least 5" of polyfoam in the mattress. This is based on the assumption that the coils are 8" and with 1/2" of latex ... that would leave about 5" to make up the 13.5" profile of the mattress.

The challenge of "stopping" the hips from sinking in and "allowing" the shoulders to sink in is one of the biggest challenges for side sleepers with any mattress even if the foam hasn't softened.

The extra firm is 2" thinner so it would still have about 3" of polyfoam but that is a lot better and could provide a much better base for a latex topper. If you were adding the 3" 19 ILD rejuvenite to this though ... you would stil have 6" of foam over the pocket coils which may still be an issue. This could turn some of the polyfoam comfort layer into a "support" layer and then the density and specs of the polyfoam would make an important difference in terms of how well the mattress/topper combination would work and the level of support you would have. My guess is that it would be an improvement over what you have now though and the difference in the firmness of the models is probably the thickness of the foam although a call to Sherwood Bedding might fill in the missing information.

Polyfoam and memory foam goes through an initial period of softening over the first few weeks followed by more gradual softening over time. If the initial softening has made it too soft under the hip area though ... then the more gradual softening that follows certainly won't make things any better. This would not be covered under a warranty until the final stages of foam breakdown when the impressions are more than the warranty exclusion (normally 1.5").

In my conversations with Urban Mattress ... they seem to be good people and have been very helpful so I would talk with them about your options. If it is possible to trade for a mattress that is closer to what you need and prefer and doesn't need an extra topper ... this may be a more economical way to go than buying a mattress and adding a topper to it.

I'm not sure what they currently have available because their website still lists IBC as one of their brands even though it has gone under. Their house brand was also being manufactured by IBC so that has probably changed as well.

If they do carry a latex/innerspring hybrid which is about the same as an extra firm with a topper ... it may be a better way to go and include less polyfoam in the mix.

Phoenix

Thanks for the quick reply phoenix! I will try and contact sherwood today and see if i can get the specs for the plush and the extra firm to compare the two. Urban mattress is about a 25 minute drive from my house so going there to check out the other options will be a problem. We tried a few other beds when we went there before which were the latex evo series i believe possibly from sherwood. They were nice but about double the price of the luminas and had polyfoam in the comfort layer which kind of turned me off to spending that kind of money. We also tried the dr. breuss beds which were awesome but they didnt have anymore of the one we liked. The tempurpedics were way out of our price range and ive never actually liked any that ive layed on. I know my wife wants me to just pick one and be done with it but I dont want to get a mattress that we will have to replace in a year or two like the previous pillowtop we had! Thanks again and I will post the specs as soon as I get them.

Hi bettinamonk,

I talked with Urban Mattress today and the Lumina plush uses mainly 1.2 and 1.5 lb polyfoam with a low ILD as I suspected. The extra firm uses 1.45 lb polyfoam but it is also much higher ILD (40 and 50) so would be much more suitable for a latex topper. The coils are 15 gauge so I would probably consider a 2" topper instead of 3" if you go in this direction.

Another option you may have is the Dr Breus lineup. They were made by IBC which is now bankrupt so they are selling the remaining stock at discounted prices. They have also made alternative arrangements to cover any warranty issues. Their lower end model has about 2" of Celsion latex on top (a type of talalay latex which is cooler than "regular" talalay) and may be on the firm side but it may be worth testing some of the lower end models because the discounted prices may be better value than buying the extra firm Lumina and adding a latex topper.

The phone at the Austin store for some reason isn't working this morning (at least from here) so I ended up talking with one of their outlets in Colorado who also couldn't reach them. I have talked with Shane in Austin though and he (like most of their outlets) is very helpful and open.

Hope this helps.

Phoenix

Thanks again for your time phoenix. I was able to get ahold of Shane at urban mattress here in Austin and asked about the specs of the two luminas. ( I previously called sherwood and thay said to call the retail store.) He said that they were basically the same besides a few inches of foam. He was more than happy to replace what we have if thats what we decide to do, but thought we should come in to try some other beds in the store. He thought the luxury firm would be the next step down but I'm leaning towards the extra firm since it contains the least foam. Since it still has 15 gauge coils I think it would hopefully be plush enough with a topper. The Dr. Breuss beds were very nice but still more than what we wanted to spend and they didnt seem to be offering very much of a discount. Im sure if we wanted to buy one that they had in stock they would discount it but it would still be over a 1,000 Im guessing. We only spent 750 on the lumina and the extra firm was 100 cheaper. With the rejuvinite topper it would be right at 1,000 since we found some on ebay for about 360 for a queen from daddys goodnight sleep gallery which seems legit from the reviews. Either me or both of us will make the trek up to urban mattress in the next few days to test out our other options. If there are really no other options within budget I will probaly go with the extra firm lumina. I realize the foam in it is of low quality but at least it wont break down as quickly as the plush that we have now. I've also read some negative reviews of the Dr. Breuss line. Any feedback on those beds before i possibly try to haggle on the price?
Thanks!

Hi bettinamonk,

When I talked with them earlier today ... he looked at the spec sheet and the extra firm not only had less polyfoam ... the layers were significantly firmer ... especially the top two thinner layers which were 40 and 50 ILD (which is very firm). There was a little softer foam under them (still firmer than the plush) and then the coils.

If I was going to stay with a Lumina version ... I would buy the one with the absolute least amount of lower density polyfoam in the firmest possible layers and then add a topper.

My thoughts about the Dr Breus is that it is an overpriced ... overmarketed mattress which basically has from about 20% to 50% latex in the different models so shouldn't really be called a "latex" mattress. They also refuse to release the details about the layering or the quality of their materials (the density of the polyfoam they use) and the claims they make about sleeping cool are because of the Celsion latex and the type of temperature regulating ticking they use which are both available to any manufacturer. At the prices they normally sell for ... they are way overpriced and poor value. At a significant discount from the normal sale prices ... they may be better value depending on the discount. "Celebrity" endorsements do nothing for the quality of a mattress but they are often the excuse to overcharge for them.

The lowest model probably has a couple of inches of latex (either all or partly Celsion). They don't say for sure but this is based on the 20% or so by weight that is latex in the lowest model. The rest is poly of unknown density/quality so a fair comparison would be to a mattress with similar construction. The polyfoam would likely be similar to the Sherwoods in the upper layers and it would also likely use a reasonable quality polyfoam in the support layers (they don't have an innerspring). I classify them in the same group as most of the mattresses made by major manufacturers who sell mattresses without disclosing information about the quality of their materials and then sell them based on a marketing story that is mostly misleading. I would tend to avoid them unless in your case one of the models is available for less than the mattress topper combination and your testing indicated that it was suitable for your needs and preferences without a topper.

Since the IBC bankruptcy ... Comfort Solutions has purchased the "Dr Breus" license and is now making the mattresses.

Knowing the "ingredients" of a mattress is the only way to know its quality and the likely "weak link" of the mattress. It's also the only way to make meaningful comparisons between mattresses.

Phoenix

From what I can remember all that UM had was the sherwood line, the latex beds that we also tried which i believe were sherwood, dr. breus, tempurpedic, and then a few beds we didnt try which i think were latex. I looked online to see if i could get any info on what those could be but since the UM site isnt up to date im not sure. Im wondering if some were the urban organics line. Does anyone have any info on that series like specs and price? Or any other mattresses that they could possibly have? We could spend a little more if necessary but dont really want to if all were going to get is a partial latex bed with cheap polyfoam in it. I would rather go with the extra firm innerspring lumina and add a nice latex topper instead.
Thanks

Hi bettinamonk,

Dr Breus isn't really what you could call a latex mattress (the most expensive model is only 50% or so latex). I'm not sure of all the specs on the Sherwood models but from their site it appears that they do make some part latex mattresses at least. Tempurpedic is of course memory foam which is a completely different type of mattress. They used to have the Urban Organics details on their site when they were being made by IBC and they were without a doubt the best value mattresses they carried IMO. They are now being made to the same specs by Sherwood. They are all latex with various different layerings and while they are more expensive than the price range you are looking at ... they use very high quality materials and are good value compared to anything similar you would find in a mass market outlet.

My tendency would be to have a "mattress materials" conversation with them on the phone to narrow down your choices before you go there. They would be the best source of information about the materials in the mattresses they carry and they tend to be quite open about them for those who ask.

My notes say that an 8" queen all talalay (no polyfoam I believe or springs) was in the range of $2000.

Phoenix

I looked at the quote sheet that UM gave me for the two beds we considered before buying the lumina and the other was a sherwood evo blossom plush which was 1299 for the set. I remember being turned off when they said that it has poly in the upper layers. It also seemed not to give as much as the innerspring mattresses. I checked on sitnsleeps site and they have some specs... 1.8 lb polyfoam and 1" talalay. This makes me believe it might not be all latex. I will definately try it again when we go back as well as the other latex beds. Do pocketed coils, like in the lumina, offer more give than a latex core?

Hi bettinamonk,

The 1.8 lb density foam they are mentioning at Sit n Sleep is the support foam in the Evo Blossom which is used instead of an innerspring (much like in a typical memory foam mattress). Polyfoam used in support layers usually starts at 1.8 lbs and then goes up from there. This would not usually be the weak link of the mattress which is almost always in the foam used in the comfort layers and all they say about this is that it's "soy based" (which is of course completely misleading because it's petrochemical based with some of the petrochemical polyols ... usually less than 20% ... replaced with plant based polyols). This is just another name for polyfoam and the density of the polyfoam used in the comfort layers is still the most important "spec".

It's hard to make a comparison between these two without knowing the layering and the density of the foams used (bearing in mind that density is completely separate from firmness/softness). With one inch of talalay and a 13.5" profile ... I would think that there is quiet a bit of softer polyfoam (since it's plush) on top but this is a guess and the quality of the polyfoam would be important to me

Without knowing the details of the layering ... it's not really possible to make comparisons or determine which may have better "value".

Pocket coils and a latex core can both have a wide range of "give" ... but they also give differently from each other. Pocket coils come in various different gauges of wire and coil counts and latex comes in a wide variety of firmness levels (even when used in a core). There are also other differences between them in terms of how they respond to pressure. Pocket coils respond in "areas" based on the surface area of the coil itself and the coil count but within this limitation the coils being compresses are more independent of the surrounding coils. Latex responds much more "point by point" (millions of cells which can compress along the surface area) but also affects and is affected by an area beside the area of compression (more like a valley than a canyon). Springs also are more resilient than latex meaning that they store more of the energy that is used to compress them and "rebound" more strongly while latex absorbs more of the energy used to compress it (around 20 - 30% depending on the type of latex). The differences lead to a different feel with pocket coils compressing more "discretely" in specific "areas" and latex compressing in smaller "nuances" but overall more generally and affecting and being affected by the material outside the area of compression more.

Having said all that ... a "typical" pocket coil would have more give than the "typical" firmer ILD's of latex used in a support core and is used to "add" pressure relief to the comfort layers in a similar way that a transition layer or softer ILD latex would "add" pressure relief to a thinner comfort layer. Springs that have a single spring rate (more cylindrical like a pocket spring) would be most similar (but still different) to either HR polyfoam or talalay latex with an ILD that was equivalent to the spring rate of a group of springs under a 50 sq in area of pressure and a compression modulus (progressive firmness) of about 2.6.

In other words ... thats a long winded way of saying that a pocket coil would "usually" have more give but not "always" and it would depend on the specs and construction or layering of both but even if they were similar ... the response and the feel would be "different".

Phoenix

Thanks for all of the great information Phoenix! My wife and I will be headed up to urban mattress on sunday to try out the other beds. I will post as soon as we return.
Thanks

Hi bettinamonk,

I'm looking forward to your report and finding out more about the details of what they are currently offering since they changed their manufacturer to Sherwood. The only thing that has stayed the same in terms of specs are their house brand which are being manufactured to the same specs.

Thanks again for your comments, questions, and feedback.

Phoenix

Well we went up to urban mattress today and it was kind of a dissapointment. We tried all of the luminas again and the luxury plush and luxury firm felt about the same im guessing due to about a half inch more or less of soft poly. The extra firm was like a rock. You could see the top layer of super dense poly shift when you touched it. We tried laying on it with a plb 2 inch topper they had which was super soft and just bottomed out on the hard poly. We also tested the evo series of partial latex mattresses they have but im not willing to buy a partial latex. The dr. breus beds are on their way out and are going to be replaced with something similar. The urban organics are wonderful but 2,000+ which seems high considering so many online manufacturers have nice all talalay under 2k and we cant get a refund on what we bought.

So that brings us back to the luminas. The difference between the two plush and firm models is so slight im not sure if trading the plush for the firm would make a big difference. I wanted to like the firm enough so i could add the rejuvenite topper but im afraid it wouldnt be plush enough transitioning from soft latex to hard poly. So the decision now is between the three luminas. Keep the plush and accept what it is? Trade for the luxury firm and hope its soft enough and doesnt break down as quickly as the plush? Or trade for the extra firm and buy a rejuvenite topper and hope its enough? Maybe even buy an inch or two of memory foam to place under the latex? Mattress buying is tough!!!

Hi bettinamonk,

You have some "tough" choices!

My understanding of the Lumina models is that the difference between them is in both the firmness and the density of the foam in addition to the thickness. I didn't ask about the Luxury plush although I would imagine it is in between on all counts.

The way I see it ... you have a few choices.

Re: The Luminas.

First would be to decide on a Lumina model by itself. If I was going in this direction I would look carefully at the density of the polyfoam in the luxury plush before deciding on this one. Bear in mind that all polyfoam and memory foam will soften more quickly in the first few weeks and this is followed by a more gradual softening so it would be better if the luxury plush was a little on the firm side.

Second would be choosing a mattress with the intent of adding a topper. In this case ... there is no doubt I would choose the extra firm. It too will soften in the first few weeks. A 2" topper is almost certainly too thin and soft to isolate you from the very firm top layers of the mattress and you would likely need either a higher ILD in 2" or a thicker 3" latex topper and an ILD only slightly higher. In either case I would avoid 14 ILD in only 2" for the reason you mentioned (you will go through to the firm layer). The PLB topper is also not the most cost effective talalay latex topper although it does have a very nice cover.

Re: The Dr Breus.

If the price is right ... this may be a good choice because of the top layer of latex. The price really would have to be right though. They have apparently made arrangements for another company to honor the warranty so this would not be an issue and other than that the demise of IBC would not affect you.

Re: The Evo Blossom

I would consider the Evo Blossom plush as an option as well by comparing the quality of the foam in it to the Lumina. It has an inch of latex and if the polyfoam in the upper layers are also higher quality ... this may be a choice worth considering without a topper.

Re: Urban Organics

The Urban organics latex models are "in the range" of a good value choice. While it's true that you could buy online for a bit less (depending on the type of latex, the thickness of the layers, and the ticking/quilting used) ... I believe it is worth paying a premium to a degree to purchase a known quantity locally. If the premium is too much ... then it makes sense to add online outlets to your choices and factor in the cost of a possible layer exchange to the purchase price. There are many online latex outlets that sell high quality latex mattresses for much more than $2000 and because of the durability of latex ... it is still good value ... but budgets have to be part of every decision unfortunately. We all know this only too well

Re: Toppers.

Don't forget that the extra firm will soften to a degree and that the Rejuvenite topper is much different from the PLB. It is an inch thicker and is also firmer at 19 ILD. You would also have the choice to buy a talalay topper that was one step firmer yet in the low 20's in 3" as well which would improve your odds even more that is would comfortably cushion you from the extra firm surface.

If you do go in the topper direction ... I would use memory foam on top not underneath and in a very thin layer depending on what I wanted to accomplish. I would also take one step at a time and only add it if it was necessary after ordering a topper.

I hope I've covered all your options. The key for me would be to get an exact description of the layers in each of your options which will make deciding which option is best much easier.

Phoenix

Ive sent email to UM asking for the exact specs of the lumina line as well as specs and prices of the all talalay line. I will either go with one of the luminas or spend the extra $$$ on an all talalay since i think they use latex international in these. Hope to hear back from them soon. Thanks again for the help and will post whenever i have more info.