Hi ShivagosGirl,

The Jordans mattress you listed would be one I could consider with a little extra information about what is and isn't in the mattress.

It has a 6" talalay latex support core (which is a high quality and expensive material) and has an inch of HD polyfoam on each side to add to the pressure relief of the medium core (I would want to know the density but would assume it was either 1.5 or 1.8 and it doesn't seem to be convoluted which is a bonus). It then has an inch of supersoft (which is within the maximum I would normally consider) and then has the "pillowtop" layer with the fire barrier (and I would want to know if there was any extra foam or fiber and the thickness in the pillowtop)

If the layering was just the Talalay and the 2" of foam and an inherent viscose fire barrier, this would be well worth considering. It is also finished on both sides (two sided) which adds to the expense of production, longevity, and value. It would also be nice to know the ticking material. The price seems like good value if the answers to the questions come out well.

Phoenix

Apparently they are night owls because I did find some things out...

The HD foam is 1.5 and was told the supersoft is also 1.5 (which I find to be confusing frankly). The Latex has an ILD of 35 btw. She said "2" quilted knit cover." (Is that the ticking?) I did ask about fabric - it's a poly cotton blend. She did say they have an organic cotton they use on other mattresses that might could be substituted - she didn't know about pricing tho.

I think that's everything...

Hi ZhivagosGirl,

Well that's not what I was hoping to hear.

The softness and firmness of a foam has very little to do with density which is often confusing to people. Very low density and very high density foam can all be made in a range from very soft to very firm. It is one of the most misunderstood aspects of polyfoam. Density is the most important "spec" because it is the single biggest part of what determines durability. 35 is in the medium "range" but this has nothing to do with quality and testing the mattress would say more about the suitability of the ILD for a particular person (although it would be fairly typical for a suupport core).

There is also a wide range of what people call HD (high density) polyfoam. When some people call 1.5 lb density HD ... what they are really saying is that it is higher density than the 1.2 lb foam that is often used. While 1.5 is certainly better quality than 1.2 and in thinner layers can be suitable for use in a lower budget mattress (just like 1.2 lb is OK in a thin layer in a quilting) it's all relative to the price and the combination of materials and where in the mattress the foam is used.

For example ... there are some lower budget mattresses that use a couple of inches of 1.5 lb foam on each side of an innerspring (with an insulator in between) and sell for very reasonable prices and are much better quality than similar mattresses that use 1.2 (or even lower) polyfoam which are pretty much "throwaway" type mattresses. With thin two sided layers like this and if the polyfoam is attached to the innerspring rather than just laying loose or if it is tufted (which pre-compresses it and helps the mattress last longer) then it would be suitable for a mattress in a lower budget range. The higher the budget ... the more you would hope to see less lower density polyfoam and more higher density polyfoam (or other higher quality foam like latex). Any material can be suitable if it is in the budget range that justifies it.

When I am looking at a mattress ... I rarely go into the detail we have been going into but mostly just try to identify the thickness of the materials that could be a "weak link" and take into account where in the mattress they are (the closer to the top the more they are subject to mechanical compression and wear). Once you are past a couple of inches of "problematic" material ... then it's time to look elsewhere unless your budget requires that you consider a mattress that uses lower quality polyfoam and polyester fiber in larger quantities.

In this case there is 4" of lower quality foam or fiber on each side of the mattress. 2" of this is polyfoam (the 1.5 lb layers) and then there is two more inches of fiber in the quilting. Ticking is just another word for the cover fabric and this can either be just the fabric (which can be a more stretchy knit or a less stretchy woven fabric) or have various foams and fibers quilted to it (using various quiting or sewing patterns). The different quilting patterns will also have an effect on how the foam feels (looser or more widely spaced patterns will be softer and tighter quilting patterns will be firmer).

Fiber in a mattress can shift and develop thin spots (although the quilting will also help to hold it in place) and it can also compress which makes it firmer. Polyester fiber comes in several grades but even higher quality will break down more quickly than natural fibers or higher quality foams. This compression of fibers will affect the feel of the mattress (compressed fiber gets firmer). Low density poyfoam on the other hand gets softer faster than higher quality materials.

If there is too much of either (or both) then the compression of the fiber and the softening of the foam can change the feel and performance of the mattress significantly over time. I always think this is a shame to use thicker layers of materials like these over high quality materials like latex.

While the "value" of this mattress is fairly good and the fact that you can flip it will slow down and even out the compression of the fibers and the softening of the foam ... if I was ordering a latex mattress I would prefer to be sleeping closer to the latex to take advantage of it's properties and thicker layers of lower quality materials only detract from the latex IMO.

I would much rather pay a little more and have the same 6" core with a couple inches of softer latex on one or both sides and then perhaps a thin quilting layer to "finish" the mattress. If I was going to add fiber ... I would prefer to use wool (which again will add to the cost but it performs much better than synthetic fibers). I think constructions like this "miss the boat" somewhat although they are fairly common.

Phoenix

Again - thanks for all the work you put into this.

So - knee jerk reaction, circling back around. Is there anything worth while that is worth the drive to Dreamline to consider? It's 45 mins to an hour to where they are and if there's nothing worth the drive, then there's nothing worth the money.

I think one thing that may change the focus a little, life doesn't always present you with what's the best mattress you can find, it's what's the best mattress you can afford. So I'm really having to keep in mind the "ROI" (return on investment) more than just the bottom line. So it may have to be a polyblend cover or a little less dense foam that will last us 5-6 yrs because it's what we can pay cash for outright. At this end of its lifecycle maybe we can afford something on a higher tier.
I ceratinly don't want to press you into a position for bad feedback because I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't want good information, so if you really feel that sub $1,000 there isn't anything with latex I want to know. Is it better that I just move on to a national retailer like Bedding Mart or Denver Mattress Co? I think you had mentioned the Aspen - which is around $1200. That would be the drop dead top price.
Anyway - all that too say, I don't want to put anymore time into comparing and contrasting Dreamline beds if there's really nothing there worth looking at and I'm to the point I'm not sure what I'm looking at anymore. For sub 1,000 are the Latex Supreme and The Dream worth the drive? You said you liked the latex near the top to take advantage of its properties, well this is right under the cover on both.
Thanks again.
Lara

Hi ZhivagosGirl,

It can be difficult to answer these types of questions but I can tell you what I would normally do in cases like this where I am looking at a wholesale manufacturer and "going through" a retailer who is not used to giving out information that is that detailed.

I would normally call the manufacturer and if they are happy to deal with customers that have general questions I would ask some questions that have some "guidelines" attached to them.

The conversation would typically go along lines like this ...

I'm looking for a mattress in the $1000 range (king mattress only) that has 2-3" latex in the comfort layers and as little lower density polyfoam or fiber as possible in the upper layers or the quilting. Do you have anything like this?

If they say yes ... then I ask which model it is and then for the layer by layer specs. I make sure I am clear that outside of the support foam ... that I would prefer no more than 1" of lower density polyfoam in the upper layers/quilting.

It usually becomes clear fairly quickly whether they have something that resembles my "criteria" and/or how willing they are to provide the specs.

If they have something that may be a possibility ... then I would become more specific (and I would tell them that I wanted to try it but make sure first that it isn't something I would rule out based on materials before I take the drive).

I agree that this is very important and higher and lower quality exist in every budget range. Any material can be suitable for use in a mattress depending on what else is in the mix and on the budget range you are looking for. The goal is relative quality in the area for a specific price range. Online outlets can also provide a reference point for value pricing although local outlets that are brick and mortar will often be a little more which I take into account as part of the "premium" for being able to test the mattress.

There are certainly options available @ $1000 (king mattress only) that has latex in the comfort layers but in this range and for this size the search can be more time consuming and difficult.

Denver Mattress is actually a factory direct manufacturer not a "retailer" although they do carry mainstream brands as well (which I would ignore). As you mentioned the Aspen is a high quality "mostly latex" mattress that uses only latex and 1.8 lb polyfoam with only an inch of supersoft lower density polyfoam (within the "guidelines). It is a little over your budget but close (your drop dead price) and it also has more than just a comfort layer that uses latex. It is very good value if it fits your needs and preferences.

Yes ... I think that both would be good value in the sub $1000 king range. If I was looking for a latex/polyfoam hybrid the Latex Supreme which has two latex layers that are just under 2" (they call it 1.5" but it's actually closer to 2") and this is over a 2.2 lb polyfoam (very high quality) base layer. It has a stretch knit cover to help conform to the latex. This seems to be in your budget and I would certainly consider it. The Dream would have a different feel and has a softer/thicker comfort layer which would have a combination of the latex/memory foam feel but this would also be a mattress well worth considering IMO and the low end of the price range seems good. Unless I was looking for a more traditional memory foam mattress (memory foam over polyfoam) ... these are the two that I would prefer in their lineup. This also indicates that Dreamline would tend to have good value in their range (at the lower end of the retail range at least).

I would start with testing the Aspen and see how you feel about it. If it was "perfect" then this would probably be the direction I would go. If not ... and the pricing of the Latex Supreme seemed to make it worth including in your testing or if you wanted to try a latex memory foam combination ... then I would take the drive so that you had the chance to make your best choice.

I talked with Twin City today and while Sleeptronic does make a latex/polyfoam hybrid, they don't carry it and mainly carry promotional (lower budget) polyfoam/innerspring mattresses and memory foam specialty mattresses. He is more than happy though to provide the foam density information to the best of his ability and agrees with the importance of doing so.

I also talked with the owner of Jordans today and as you mentioned he is less forthcoming than a typical local manufacturer. He confirmed that their latex two sided was 6" of talalay with 2" of 1.5 lb polyfoam on each side with a fire barrier and stretch knit cover. While this is on the low density polyfoam side ... it is also only 2" and two sided so again the price seems reasonable and if it met your needs and preferences I would consider it. He was not as open though about his memory foam (which comes from China) and also didn't know what CertiPur was (he thought it was a brand of foam) and instead of finding out if his source was certified be became a little aggressive and told me to phone his foam distributor. I replied that I thought it would be better if he did so as part of his customer service. His only comment was he has been using it for 10 years and has had "no problems". He was not quite as open and helpful as many local factory direct manufacturers that I have talked with and was more "curt" and "short" in his responses.

Bedding Mart carries PLB which are very nice all talalay latex mattresses but out of your budget.

Overall ...if I was looking at latex ... I would be looking at Denver mattress and Dreamline outlets.

This would also give you a good reference point for an online purchase if that was an option that seemed worthwhile for you although the local value that we have narrowed it down to seems good and my preference would be to buy something I had tested if the value warrants it.

So those are the options I would be looking at if I was in your shoes

Phoenix

As usual your patience and willingness to help is just exceptional. My husband is still ruminating on exactly what he's willing to spend - who knows he may surprise me in the end.

I thought the man at Twin City was very kind/approachable but really didn't seem to know much about the "mechanics" of the mattresses he had.

As for Jordan I have been corresponding via email exclusively with the wife of who you talked to. Apparently she's the social, friendly one of the pair.

I've emailed Sandy Findlay at Dreamline and asked about gaining access to their showroom to "test drive" the Latex Supreme and The Dream. I'm hoping to do that tomorrow. There is a Denver Mattress Co in the general direction of their location as well as a Bedding Mart.

I know you said to avoid the big name brands - but Bedding Mart has a Simmons Dalila for about $1,250 (pillow top/non pillow top or extra firm ) are you familiar with it? thebeddingmart.com/dalila-plush-k.html# thebeddingmart.com/dalila-ef-k.html. They also have a Serta Garrett thebeddingmart.com/garrett-spt-k-287.htmlanything of merit here? I don't know anything other than the word "latex" came up in a search on their website. And you are right - I'd say the PLB is REALLY too much.

Generally speaking we do a lot of online shopping - I just have a hard time seeing how test driving one mattress will tell the story of another. Unless they have the same content and if that is the case - why not just buy the mattress "in hand?" I thought the Ultimate Dream mattress looks really good but again so hard to pull the trigger on something like that - that is so intimate to your body without even touching it.

Hi ZhivagosGirl,

That's probably a good thing ... because at least one of them needs to be

Dreamline and Denver would both be good value if they "fit" what you need. It may be worthwhile going to Bedding Mart out of curiosity but not for any value they carry. The PLB's would be interesting to test but as you mention are out of budget because they are all talalay latex.

It can often take many hours of frustration to track down the component and layering information of a mainstream mattress in the confusion of dozens of names for the same mattress and because so few outlets give this information to you (some of the better online outlets such as US-Mattress and a few others will often have the layer thickness information at least but you still have to match the models with different names). Even if they do ... you are face to face with the near impossibility of finding out the quality of the materials or the density of the polyfoam they use. If you do manage to find this (with a lot of deeper searching or through talking with people inside the industry or manufacturers who have taken apart the mattresses) ... you will find one of two things. Either they have way too much low density polyfoam in their mattresses and are charging way too much (compared to local manufacturers or independents that use similar or better quality materials at lower prices) for a nice looking cover with much cheaper and lower quality material in it or in those cases where you are looking at their very top end mattresses that sometimes (and usually not even here) use high quality materials ... you will find they are still very low value and much higher in price than better options that use similar or usually better quality material at much lower prices.

There is not a single mainstream "S" brand mattress (Sealy, Simmons, Serta etc) I would consider and I have yet to find one I would buy based on materials and value. the stories can sound great until you find out the materials that are behind them. You could go through the exercise of spending the hours to "match" the names and track the information down but you will mostly reach brick walls ("we're sorry that's proprietary") and even if you are able to find the meaningful information you will need it will lead to the same outcome it always does ... low value.

In the case of Simmons ... airfeel is low density polyfoam that is open celled for breathability. Purfoam is low density conventional polyfoam usually anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 lb density. The latex would generally be in thin layers.

The Serta is the same except they use a very inexpensive continuous coil innerspring which is the lowest cost innerspring there is. If you look at the description thebeddingmart.com/garrett-spt-k-287.html you will see many inches of convoluted foam (polyfoam) and comfort foam (also polyfoam) which is also low density. I don't see any latex at all except in the title although it may be in there somewhere.

The largest companies in the industry are responsible to shareholders and investment groups ... not consumers ... and their "product" is profit margin for their main customers (which are larger chain stores and outlets) not mattresses. To achieve these profit margins they have to use lower quality materials that have marketing stories attached to them that consumers will buy in place of real information about the quality of materials in their mattresses.

In the absence of real information about layering and materials ... this is generally true. In the case of materials such as latex or memory foam ... materials information is much more available and meaningful and local testing can give you a good general sense of the overall type of layering you need and prefer and then this can be used with the help of a knowledgeable person as a guideline for an online purchase but it is not as simple as many seem to think. For example if you are laying on 3" of 24 ILD latex with a firm support layer ... this will perform in a similar way to other 24 ILD 3" layers with a firm support layer and you can get a sense that 3" of 24 ILD latex over firm support will give you the pressure relief you need. There are other variables as well (such as ticking materials and quilting layers) but these can be taken into account in a general "translated" sense if someone knows how different materials will perform.

Many of the online outlets will also have layer exchanges which make changes after the fact part of the process at a very reasonable cost which can reduce the risk as well. In general though ... local purchases that can actually be tested "as they are" is a much more accurate way to buy a mattress. An online purchase with the help of someone knowledgeable and with comparative local testing can also provide good value and can also end up being "accurate" (possibly with layer exchanges) but can also be a more difficult and "risky" process. In the end ... it's all part of the "value equation" of each person and each person needs to decide if the difference between a local purchase and a "similar" online purchase justifies any differences.

While you may or may not find exactly the same content locally as you can online ... you will often find something similar enough that it can provide a good blueprint. If the price difference is enough in these cases then an online purchase can be well worth while ... especially if the difference is a lot or if there are exchange options with the online purchase. In some cases even having a choice of comfort layer for an online purchase can be enough to make the risk worthwhile for some. If the difference is smaller (say 20% or less) ... then I would go local and purchase something I had actually tested and reduce the "risk". If this is from a local manufacturer ... then many of them will still make adjustments after the fact at a very reasonable charge if necessary without having to start all over again. In your case ... the value available to you is better than some other areas of the country who may have more to gain with an online purchase.

These are all the types of "tradeoffs" that we each need to weigh and measure based on our own risk tolerance and the different mix of what is most important for each person.

My goal is to help people get to a place where their choices are between "good and good"

Phoenix

Hello (again),

So you feel the "entry point" at Bedding Mar is the PLB and really won't consider anything below that? Serta Natural Start Caledonia for $1650? (Apparently I'm a little thick headed and a glutton for punishment) LOL - see how that number keeps creeping? My husband will be home in a bit and I'll see what his "number" really is. Maybe I'll have some good news... I still am pretty sure it won't be the PLB - but hopefully we could try the snowmass at Denver.

Is there anything at a brick and mortar store you can suggest that might approximate the Ultimate Dream we could go try today?

Hi ZhivagosGirl,

I wouldn't consider the PLB an entry point but more of a premium specialty mattress. They are the only mattresses I would consider there because anything they carry that is either lower or higher I just wouldn't buy because they don't have good value. In other words ... if someone was looking for anything else but a premium latex mattress ... I wouldn't be looking there.

The Ultimate Dream has a variety of choices that go with it because people can choose the ILD (firmness level) of the comfort layer. If I was looking in this direction I would be more focused on getting to know what I needed and preferred in terms of softer or firmer comfort layers and then make a choice based on my testing and preferences. To know this ... you would need to know the ILD and thickness of any latex you were laying on. Other than that ... you would need to know where you fit in terms of "averages" in terms of your soft/medium/firm preferences in any material.

Some general guidelines about sleeping positions are here and about different weights/heights/ and body shapes are here. These in combination with knowing where you "fit" in terms of averages and with the help of someone who can help you translate that into a different type of construction can help to lower the risk of an online purchase.

For example ... if you tested the Aspen ... you would have an idea of what sleeping on 2" of 24 ILD talalay latex and an inch of supersoft polyfoam over 4" of 32 ILD talalay latex over firmer 1.8 lb polyfoam would feel like. This could give you somewhat of a reference point. This would be "softer" for most people compared to the Snowmass (which has the same 24 ILD talalay latex in the comfort layer but has an inch of firmer polyfoam on top). Testing these types of mattresses for pressure rerlief and alignment can give you an idea of what may work best for you and what choice would give you the best odds of working for you.

If you know the ILD of the Latex supreme ... then this could also provide an indication of what worked. It would also give you an idea of the general "feel" of latex over polyfoam (but not the specifics of pressure relief and alignment because the layering is different)

The closer to a specific construction you have tested ... the more accurate you can be. If a particular construction you are testing is very different ... then making comparisons would introduce many more variables and would be less accurate and involve more "translations" from one thickness and layer combination to another.

In most cases ... without specific testing that indicates otherwise ... online purchases are based on what an "average" person of similar height/weight/body shape and sleeping positions would prefer in a specific type of mattress.

Phoenix

Couple quick things - the initial graphic for the Dreamline "The Dream" was incorrect - the memory foam is actually on top of the latex. I've updated that graphic. Sandy was very nice, helpful went asked - but generally just hung back. Nice when they have no vested interest in which mattress we like or don't like.

We went to Dreamline and Denver. Think we are leaning toward getting "The Dream" it was comparable in feel to the Snowmass and Latex Supreme was similar to the Aspen. I probably liked the Aspen the least - it was the most "jiggly." Latex Supreme also seemed to have a fair amount of motion transfer. I liked the Snowmass - but I don't think enough to justify about $450 in price more than The Dream. (just for the mattress).

We're still mulling whether we want to go see the Talalay by Jordan brothers. I'm not sure if they are just a manufacturer/wholesaler. I've emailed (the wife of course) to find out if there is a retailer in the LR area hoping to save a trip to Hot Springs.

Guess that's more than a couple quick things. That's pretty much everything unless you have any questions. I posted about whether we really need the new flex steel foundation or not - what are your thoughts?

Lara

Hi ZhivagosGirl,

From this point ... I would go by your testing for pressure relief and alignment and your preferences (such as motion transfer) between different mattresses and of course include the comparative "value" between different mattresses that would both seem to do the job. Thanks too for the updated specs on the Dream.

As far as I know they are factory direct but I didn't ask them this specifically. Outside of their "style" of communication and their reluctance to answer questions in more detail ... they fit the profile of better local manufacturers with better value ... even if the details are more difficult to find out. I guess this would depend (for me) on how close the mattresses you have tried were to your "ideal" in terms of both performance, feel, and budget.

There's a fairly lengthy reply (not so unusual for me it seems ) in the other thread with my thoughts about the different types of foundations.

You re down to the place where your choices are between "good and good" and suitability for your needs and preferences balanced against the importance of the different price ranges would be the tradeoff you are facing. The "value" of all your remaining choices are certainly better than most.

Phoenix

Hi,

We went to Jordan Brothers today. We liked the Talalay mattress very much, it was on the firm end of the spectrum for my preference however. I can't help but find myself thinking it's better to buy a firmer mattress because they'll all start to "give" after a while. I also can't help but think I'm subconsciously swayed toward this mattress because a) it's double sided and we get twice the mattress for not much more price b) liberal full 10 year waranty.

In terms of the specific "test drive" - it was comfortable and I did lay on it for quite a while on my side and I did feel support all long my ribcage - so I didn't just feel mattress under my hip and shoulder.

I forgot to ask the full thickness of the mattress. Is it as simple as adding the various layers together? In that case it would be 10 inches - it looked thicker than that. Not that bigger (thicker) necessarily is better - just trying to gather info about all the variables.

In terms of the tally on all the mattresses we've tried we both like "The Dream" by Dreamline. We were split on the Denver Mattress options. My husband liked the Aspen, I liked the Snowmass. We both liked the Jordan Bedding one.

I also have to wonder if we liked the Jordan one because it's the one we tried most recently. Although that didn't ring true the other day when we looked. We tried "The Dream" first and even tho we were split on the Denver Mattress offerings we still both liked "The Dream" better. Again - being $300 less than the Snowmass may have had something to do with it. But I can't help but take the financial piece into consideration when making this decision. Although the Jordan Bedding one is at the top of our price range and we are heavily considering it.

With my husband being mostly a back sleeper he's pretty much said "I can sleep on any of them." So ultimately I think this is falling to me. Unfortuntately Jordan Bedding and Dreamline are about an hour and a half a part so there's not really a way to compare the two of them in any direct fashion. I'm also waiting to hear back from Sandy my contact at Dreamline because apparently she's the only person in the ENTIRE place that can give me the ILD rating on their Latex and she's been traveling this week.

Alrighty - so that's where we stand. Or lay as the case may be.

Lara

Hi ZhivagosGirl,

This is certainly true and all foam will soften over time ... it is also less true for latex than for memory foam or polyfoam. Polyurethane foams (and memory foam is a type of these) will go through an initial softening followed by a more gradual softening followed by breakdown which leads to impressions. Latex will do the same but to a lesser degree and over a longer period of time.

Warranties are not nearly as important a factor in the purchase of a mattress or in determining value as knowing the materials that are in it. Warranties don't cover the change in comfort of a mattress over time ... only the last stage of foam breakdown which leads to impressions (and they also have exclusions where the most common amounts of impressions are considered "normal" and not covered anyway). In other words ... they have nothing to do with how long a mattress will last or remain suitable for your needs and preferences. They only cover "defects" in manufacturing which will usually show up early in the life of a mattress.

Comparing the overall thickness of a mattress to the layers that you know about is just a way to tell if there are any "missing" layers that may be a "weak link" in a mattress you are considering. Other than that ... the overall thickness of a mattress has little to do with quality or suitability for any individual. In many cases ... thickness can be a disadvantage if it is because of innersprings that are taller than normal or because of low density foam that has been added to a mattress to cater to the common idea in the minds of consumers that "thicker is better". Your own testing will tell you more about the suitability of a mattress than "specs" like total thickness.

The Snowmass uses thicker layers of latex which is a more expensive material than either polyfoam or memory foam so the fact that it is more expensive would be "normal" and not indicative of the comparative value of each mattress. The Dreamline uses 5" of "premium" foam and 3" of this is high quality memory foam and 2" of it are the more expensive latex. The rest is polyfoam which is less than both. The Snowmass has 8" of the more costly Talalay latex. This doesn't mean of course that the Snowmass is "better" for you because this is always about how well a mattress meets your needs and preferences but it does indicate that the Snowmass uses more expensive and durable materials and would be "worth" paying more if this was the direction you decided to go. Bear in mind that durability means little if the mattress doesn't "work" as well for you (and your husband).

Because of your husbands back sleeping ... slightly firmer in the support layers and thinner in the comfort layers (between him and the support of the mattress) would tend to be better. I would take into account the thickness of any "soft" foam in the top layers as part of your considerations. If you have a choice between two "seemingly equal" options ... then slightly firmer in the support layers and thinner in the support layers is generally "safer" for the long term. This is particularly true if the upper layers includes foam that is more likely to soften over time.

I would also not pay any attention to ILD specs (what I call "comfort" specs) because you have already tested the mattresses and ILD is not connected to quality or value. It will only introduce a variable that is meaningless at this stage. ILD is important if you are buying something you haven't tested online or using a local mattress as a guideline for an online purchase but if you are making a local purchase ... then ILD "specs" are not important or really worth any effort to track down. This is why most local outlets don't put much focus on them because they know that your own personal experience is much more important and ILD can often do more to distract and confuse than help.

As I mentioned in the last post ... you are at the "best" place you could be where your choices are all good ones and even though the final smaller details of either "feel" or materials and the tradeoffs between your choices can be the most difficult of all ... at least there are no "bad" choices in the mix and hopefully some of this post will help you make the "best" decision possible for your short and long term satisfaction.

Phoenix

Ok - so in the further whittling down process - I would say that the Snowmass is out. Our original goal was to be in the thousand dollar range with $1,500 being the max - well it's still $200 above that without tax.

I'm leaning toward saying "The Dream" is out because it really only has 2 inches of latex in the entirety of the mattress. While it is nearly $400 less than the other 2 mattresses left in the running - that was one of our goals - a latex mattress. But it is more in line with our price range... Caveat question - is the 4.5" 2.2 lb poly foam base a quality enough product to leverage the price break of that size without compromising the integrity of the mattress?

As for tracking down the Dreamline Talalay Latex ILD - it was in the interest of trying to compare "apples to apples" in the sense of I know what the numbers are for the other mattresses already.

Also - as a general, overall question is there a point where a layer is automatically considered a comfort layer vs. a support (core?) layer? Like top 2 comfort, anything lower than that support - unless specified by the manufacturer?

SO now the 2 remaining mattresses would be the Aspen and the Jordan Talalay. While they both contain a total of 6 inches of latex, by comparison I don't see that they could be any different. The Aspen looks and to me feels like a big slab of foam and the Jordan Talalay looks and feels like a traditional mattress with a pillow top type cover.

I wanted to ask you about what you wrote here... "If you have a choice between two "seemingly equal" options ... then slightly firmer in the support layers and thinner in the support layers is generally "safer" for the long term. This is particularly true if the upper layers includes foam that is more likely to soften over time. The bolded part I'm particularly confused by - but that whole passage is confusing to me.

Thanks,
Lara

PS - LOL, I just went back and read my entry from right after we came home from our outing to Dreamline and Denver Mattress Co.

Here's a quote... "I probably liked the Aspen the least." So even before I tried the Jordan Talalay - when the physical "data" was still fresh, I felt like that mattress was not really in the running. Which is frankly a relief. I feel better about trusting my evaluation then than I do just looking at the information I've gathered.

So - here's the boiled down bottom line question. 2 pronged tho it may be....
1) Is the quality of the 2 side Jordan Talalay worth $400 or...
2) Would you be comfortable with the price break vs. R.O.I. on the Dreamline single sided?

Hi ZhivagosGirl,

Well ... at least the final choices are getting smaller

This would be a high quality poly and would be very durable when it is used as the support layer of a mattress. This would be the rough equivalent for example of the support foam used in a Tempurpedic which is in the same "range". While polyurethane doesn't have the same performance as latex in terms of how adaptable it is to changes in position or point elasticity and other factors ... polyfoam of this density used in a support layer would not be a "weak link" in a mattress.

No ... there is no "boundary" between the two primary functions of the mattress. In most cases ... layers that are added near the top are added more for their pressure relief qualities (such as memory foam) and layers that are used in the lower layers are used for their support qualities (and middle or transition layers are a combination of both) but every layer of a mattress will have an effect on both. Not only that but what would be a support layer for one person (where they stop sinking down) may be more of a comfort layer for another person that is much heavier ... even in the same mattress.

In general though ... the closer to the top a layer is the more it will affect pressure relief and "comfort" and the less effect it will have on support. The deeper the layer is the more it will affect support and the less it will affect pressure relief. There are other factors involved here that are more complex such as using a flexible or active base or box spriing with materials that will "bend" into the compression of deeper softer layers (and this would happen more with a more elastic and flexible foam like latex than polyfoam which is stiffer) and this will affect both pressure relief and support. In the same way, in some cases certain materials that are at the very top of a mattress such as a wool topper can prevent thick comfort layers from compressing as much (especially memory foam but other softer foams as well) so this will affect both support/alignment and comfort/pressure relief. In general though, these guidelines (deeper = support and upper = pressure relief/comfort) hold true.

Bearing in mind that your testing would be more important than specs or what I am about to say ... with the Dream ... my concern would be that there is quite a bit of softer materials in the upper part of the mattress. 3" of memory foam (which may be firm at first but will soften with heat and time over the course of the night) and then there is 2" of latex (which is probably firmer although I don't know the ILD) and then a layer of convoluted polyfoam (the convoluted part would be softer and then get firmer when you were past the convoluting in the layer). I don't know the density of this layer and convoluted also has less material than a full layer so is less durable but it is also deeper in the mattress which would mean that it is not as subject to mechanical compression as the upper layers. How it affected durability would depend on how deeply you sank into the mattress in addition to the specs of the layer itself. As you can see, this is sometimes a combination of technical specs and intuition. In any case ... my caution is that this may be a fair bit of softer materials for the best alignment for a back sleeper. It may allow the pelvis to rotate (sink deeper) than it should, particularly for a heavier person. This combination of materials would be more risky IMO for a heavier back sleeper.

The "weak link" of the Denver is the 1" of polyfoam in the upper layer but this is within the amount that is normally fine because even if it softens it is a thin enough layer that it will have much less effect on the overall performance of the mattress. The polyfoam in the lower layers is 1.8 lbs which is normally fine for a support layer in terms of durability although it is on the bottom end of the "OK" range.

With the Jordan talalay, it has 2" of 1.5 lb polyfoam on each side which would be the "weak link" here. While it is only 2" (and how it performed would also depend on how it was quilted or tufted etc) and everything below that is latex ... when it softened it would affect the overall performance of the mattress more than just an inch of softer polyfoam. This is also offset by the fact that the mattress is two sided and can be flipped which will add to the durability of the polyfoam. Finishing a mattress on two sides is also a more expensive construction. Even though you are not sleeping directly on the latex with this one (which you would be with the Aspen) ... there is also the advantage that the entire support layer would be latex which will somewhat make up for the weakness of having 2" of polyfoam on top. This is because when the polyfoam softens ... you would tend to sink in more to the latex which will get firmer faster than other foams and "make up" for the extra compression faster so it would stay supportive.

Of course the prices will play a role in all of this and most important of all would be how well they each relieve pressure and keep you in alignment in all your sleeping positions. If I was in your shoes ... my testing would play a significant role in my choice. The different looks of each mattress (ie pillowtop vs a "slab" of foam") would not play a role in my decision because no matter how a mattress is constructed ... the two main functions of every mattress (pressure relief and alignment) and how well if meets your preferences with things like how it feels when you are still or with movement, how well each isolates movement, how much "in" or "on" each mattress you are, the "springiness" or liveliness of each, and how important it is for you to sleep directly on the latex (which is more breathable and cooler than polyfoam with all else being equal) would be much more important to me.

What I mean by this is that if everything else between two mattresses seems equal and both relieved pressure well, I would tend to go with the one that was a little firmer ... especially in the support layers (or had thinner comfort layers which puts you closer to the support). Youu can always make a mattress softer and more pressure relieving but you can't firm it up as easily and make it more supportive. The most important part .. especially with heavier weights ... is that alignment is good in all your sleeping positions.

I would be quite comfortable with either of these in terms of "value" (although to save me scanning through many posts it may be worthwhile to post the prices of each again fr "mattress only"). Don't forget that both of these are better value than what you would likely have purchased in a chain store or in a major brand.

This may also be a case of choosing "firmer" and "less risky" over softer and "more risky" (in other words less soft foam like polyfoam and memory foam on top that can soften and affect alignment over time).

Hope this helps ... and trust your body and your intuition more than the specs and you will be fine.

Phoenix