>

Welcome to The Mattress Underground FORUM! :cheer:
The first place to start your research is the Mattress Shopping Tutorial
Select the Search Forum tab below to gain access to answers to many mattress related questions.
Select the Ask An Expert tab below to reach out to any of our Expert Members for guidance and advice.

Welcome to The Mattress Underground FORUM! :cheer:

TOPIC:

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 04 Mar 2013 20:13 #1

This forum has been very helpful in doing research for our upcoming mattress purchase. We dodged a bullet by not buying one of those national brand inner spring mattresses. I was hoping for some final advice before pulling the trigger no a King Latex mattress from Arizona Premium Mattress company. They seem to have the best mix of "value" for me. We decided to go with Latex because above all, we value durability. My current national brand inner spring mattress is no longer comfortable and didn't even last 6 years. I am a little worried about ordering online but the price premium for something similar locally (twin cities, MN) is too great.

Here's some more information about my wife and I. I am 6', 153 lbs and skinny. I start the night on my back but usually turn to my side. Both of these sleep positions feel natural to me. I don't have a big butt so when I am on my back, if the mattress is too soft, my hips sink too far pulling on my spine. I think for this reason, I prefer a firmer mattress. But since I have a skinny waist , if the mattress is not soft enough, my hips and shoulders don't sink in enough and my side collapses into the mattress. I tend to sleep cold. My wife is 5'6 around 123 lbs. She's has very wide hip bones, broad shoulders, and a narrow waist. She starts off the night on her side but she also sometimes turns onto her back. I'm not sure if the back and forth for both of us is due to an uncomfortable mattress. She has a bigger butt than I (good thing she is not going to read this), so she can tolerate a softer mattress when lying on her back. Her curvy shape and general preference is for a softer feel. She also sleeps hot.

We did try some local latex mattresses. Here's a summary.

Original Mattress Factory #1:
6" core of 60/40 blended talalay 4.1 density 30-34 ILD

We both felt this was nice while laying on our backs. My wife wanted maybe a slightly softer feel. On our sides, we thought the mattress was not soft enough.

Original Matterss Factory #2:
6" core of 60/40 blended talalay 4.1 density 30-34 ILD
2" convoluted topper 3.2 density 17-21 ILD
1.25" convoluted 1.5 density 15 ILD + 0.25" 1.2 density 36ILD quilted polyfoam

This mattress was way too soft for both side and back sleeping positions.


RoomandBoard made by Restwell
6" 5.5 densitiy 34 ILD 100% Dunlop
1.5" 5 density 20 ILD 100% Dunlop
1.7 oz Joma wool quilted to cotton cover on soft side
1 oz Joma wool quilted to cotton cover on firm side

We thought the soft and firm side were both too firm for side sleeping. We would have liked something a little bit softer than the soft side. On our sides, my waist sunk down and my alignment was not straight. For back sleeping on the firm side, the spine alignment was good but we didn't like the hard feel of the mattress.


Savvy Rest at Moss Envy
We both liked 3" Firm Dunlop + 3" Medium Dunlop + 3" Soft Talalay. My wife could have went softer (ST, SD, FD) on her side and I could have went firmer (MT, MD,FD) on my back. This isn't as reliable though since we didn't know much about what to look for when we tried it out.


I hope this is enough information to determine what the best fit mattress would be at Arizona Premium Mattress Factory. Currently leaning towards a medium 32 blended talalay core + a 2" 22 blended talalay topper. I don't know if it would be worthwhile to do the 3" 19 topper upgrade. If we do 3", does that mean we go to a firmer core?

I also don't know what mattress cover to get: bamboo or organic. They say the Bamboo is a free upgrade but what makes it better and more expensive? Is it more durable, sleeps cooler/warmer, etc? I never really understood why the feel of the cover material is important if you are putting sheets on top of it. I believe the bamboo cover feels firmer and the organic cover is thinner so you are closer to the feel of the latex? The bamboo cover will further compress as time goes on and become firmer, right?

I also wanted to confirm that the blended talalay latex is the best for price, durability, and for not sleeping on poisonous materials (chemical fire retardants and memory foam off gassing, etc).

I also wanted to know if there is a benefit to two sided flippable latex mattresses. Would it be worth the upgrade to do this?

Do you have any recommendations on pillows as well? Size, shredded vs contour vs standard solid? What about materials (latex, memory foam, polyester, down)?

Looking forward to hearing back before pulling the trigger. Thanks in advance.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by phoenix.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 04 Mar 2013 22:05 #2

I am also from the Twin Cities and have been endlessly researching a latex mattress purchase for weeks. I also tried the beds at O.M. Factory and Moss Envy but I found the best value going with the Natural Mattress Co. in Crystal. It is just a woman working out of her home, but you can try out different latex layers and see what combination works best. Her prices couldn't be beat, even compared to the recommended outlets online mentioned here all the time. She deals with 100 % dunlop and the covering is made locally with cotton/wool. I ordered a king in S/M/F layers just last week so I'm eagerly waiting for it now.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 05 Mar 2013 01:54 #3

Hi rapscalli0n,

You seem to be down to final choices between "good and good" which means there is nothing to "exclude" because it's a poor choice that any final decisions will be based on the objective, subjective, and intangible factors that are most important to you rather than the more typical "better worse" or in many cases "worse worse" choices that most consumers end up with.

Original Mattress Factory #1:
6" core of 60/40 blended talalay 4.1 density 30-34 ILD

We both felt this was nice while laying on our backs. My wife wanted maybe a slightly softer feel. On our sides, we thought the mattress was not soft enough.

Original Matterss Factory #2:
6" core of 60/40 blended talalay 4.1 density 30-34 ILD
2" convoluted topper 3.2 density 17-21 ILD
1.25" convoluted 1.5 density 15 ILD + 0.25" 1.2 density 36ILD quilted polyfoam

This mattress was way too soft for both side and back sleeping positions.


Just as "point of interest" ... OMF usually has their matresses on an "active" box spring which can change the feel and performance of the mattress compared to the same mattress on a solid non flexing foundation. When you test the latex mattresses here it's usually a good idea to test it on a solid foundation such as an adjustable bed to make sure you can feel the mattress itself and not the combination of mattress/box spring which will give you a more meaningful guideline about the type of layering they use.

RoomandBoard made by Restwell
6" 5.5 densitiy 34 ILD 100% Dunlop
1.5" 5 density 20 ILD 100% Dunlop
1.7 oz Joma wool quilted to cotton cover on soft side
1 oz Joma wool quilted to cotton cover on firm side


These are Dunlop latex which is typically firmer than Talalay in the same ILD but I would also question the accuracy of the ILD rating for the 1.5" comfort layer. 5 lb density Dunlop is typically much firmer than 20 ILD so I would think that either thedensity or the ILD was incorrect and it's not surprising that you found it firmer if the density was correct. The thickness of the comfort layer is also thinner so you would feel more of the even firmer Dunlop below it.

Savvy Rest at Moss Envy
We both liked 3" Firm Dunlop + 3" Medium Dunlop + 3" Soft Talalay. My wife could have went softer (ST, SD, FD) on her side and I could have went firmer (MT, MD,FD) on my back. This isn't as reliable though since we didn't know much about what to look for when we tried it out.


This could also provide a good guideline and when you are looking at a different design then I would put more weight on the top two layers than on the bottom layer in terms of 'approximating" it.

I would of course share your experiences with Ken when you talk with him about the design you plan to choose because they could be helpful when you are deciding on the specific design and layering that you prefer.

I hope this is enough information to determine what the best fit mattress would be at Arizona Premium Mattress Factory. Currently leaning towards a medium 32 blended talalay core + a 2" 22 blended talalay topper. I don't know if it would be worthwhile to do the 3" 19 topper upgrade. If we do 3", does that mean we go to a firmer core?


It may be worthwhile re-testing the OMF mattresses on a solid surface to see if you notice any difference because it has a similar design to one of the options they carry (6" base with a 3" top layer). Again ... these kinds of questions that relate to a specific mattress you plan to order are always better as part of a conversation with the manufacturer themselves who knows more about their designs than anyone else. There is much more generic information about body type, sleeping positions, and different types of layering in the mattresses section of the site which can give you some insights into the theory and ideas behind different designs but because of the many variables of different body types, sleeping styles, and preferences involved, these are not specific suggestions for any particular person but just information that can help you better understand some of the ideas behind the different types of choices. Rather than becoming the expert though ... I would work directly with them on the phone because they already know what you would otherwise need to learn and are the best source of guidance about their own mattresses and designs.

I also wanted to confirm that the blended talalay latex is the best for price, durability, and for not sleeping on poisonous materials (chemical fire retardants and memory foam off gassing, etc).


there really is no "best for the price" because different people have different preferences for different reasons and this would depend on the individual preferences of each person. Both types of Talalay have the same Oeko-Tex certification (level 1 safe for babies) and in the lower ILD's blended would likely be more durable than 100% natural Talalay. You can see more about this in post #6 here but I think (and I know that Ken would probably agree) that for most people the blended would be better overall value.

I also wanted to know if there is a benefit to two sided flippable latex mattresses. Would it be worth the upgrade to do this?


Any two sided mattress would be more durable than the same mattress in a one sided version (if you flip it regularly) but it also changes the design possibilities because you now have a different material on the bottom (softer latex) so you can't use layers that are too thick in a two sided design or it may affect support. If the mattress matches your needs and preferences ... then a two sided mattress is a value bonus because of the extra cost of finishing or quilting the mattress on both sides and because it will improve durability even with an already very durable material like latex. One other consideration is that many one sided layered designs have removable layers which can be replaced without replacing the whole mattress so even if the top layers are a little less durable because they are softer and closer to the top of the mattress (more subject to stress) they provide flexibility to make comfort changes down the road and to replace a single layer which would also be much more cost effective than replacing a whole mattress which in its own way is a durability or at least a "value bonus" as well.

Do you have any recommendations on pillows as well? Size, shredded vs contour vs standard solid? What about materials (latex, memory foam, polyester, down)?


Pillows have some "needs" connected to them just like mattresses because different body types and sleeping positions need different types of pillows but personal preferences plays a much larger role with pillows than it does even with mattresses. There is lots more information and links and feedback about various pillows in the pillow thread here .

Looking forward to hearing back before pulling the trigger. Thanks in advance.


Hope this helps ... and I think the most important part of any final choices is to make sure you take all the things that are connected with any mattress purchase into account which of course includes the "raw value" of mattress and its design but also all the other options and benefits that come from dealing with a particular retailer or manufacturer which can be just as important a part of your personal value equation .

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by phoenix.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 05 Mar 2013 02:48 #4

Hi rapscalli0n,

I was also impressed in my conversation with Deborah (which is why they are in the Minneapolis list) and they are certainly making some good quality and value mattresses. They are actually a little more than some of the online members here but when you take into account the lower risk of actually being able to test a mattress before you buy it and use a 20% difference as being comparable local value compared to an online purchase (which is in the range that I would suggest using) then they are definitely good value as well and I would certainly include them in my research and give them strong consideration if I was in the Minneapolis area.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by phoenix.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 05 Mar 2013 04:39 #5

Thanks for all the replies.

I just spoke with Deborah at the Natural Mattress Co. They seem to be an interesting little company but I came away with some questions.

1) They supply the parts for the mattress but don't have the fire barrier certification to sell the mattresses whole. I assume the materials are pretty much the same as other manufacturers with the certification so that they should perform similarly. Is the difference only the paper that says they are fire test certified? Is it even important to have a special fire barrier in the mattress for the consumer if I don't plan on smoking in bed or using a heating pad?

2) There was a mention that 100% natural Talalay from Latex International had silica in it which dramatically shorten its lifespan. Is there truth to this? They seem to like Dunlop better than Talalay (especially the blended variety). It's hard to decide when everybody has contradicting opinions on matters depending on what they sell.

3) What are the merits of a 3" + 3" + 3" design versus a 6" + 3" design? Is it mainly patents or does one work better than the other. Each manufacturer of each type always touts that theirs is the best. For example, the 3+3+3 supposedly can be more configurable but proponents of the 6+3 design say that we shouldn't put a softer layer under a firmer layer. Again, it's always tough to know who to believe. So for our weights, only 6" of the mattress matter for either design since we won't be bottoming it out?

4) There seems to be even more choices with this company. How do I know how much wool I want in the cover? How do I choose whether I get a quilted (two sided fabric with wool in between) or raw batting+case? Do people usually wash their removable covers or will a mattress cover pretty much protect the case? What type of quilting pattern should I choose and how will each affect the feel of the mattress? I think sometimes more choices make the decision harder.

5) Since they just sell the parts, what stops the public from just buying latex directly from a wholesaler or from the manufacturer?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 05 Mar 2013 10:26 #6

Hi rapscalli0n,

1) They supply the parts for the mattress but don't have the fire barrier certification to sell the mattresses whole. I assume the materials are pretty much the same as other manufacturers with the certification so that they should perform similarly. Is the difference only the paper that says they are fire test certified? Is it even important to have a special fire barrier in the mattress for the consumer if I don't plan on smoking in bed or using a heating pad?


As you mention ... these are not mattresses but component parts that you put together yourself at home and they have not passed the 1632 or 1633 fire code.

As far as a fire barrier goes ... some people may consider a fire barrier to be important and some would be very happy not to have it and avoid the the chemicals that some of them contain (although some fire barriers such as wool that are used in more "natural" mattresses to pass the test this would not be a concern). The actual materials they are selling use the same latex as many other manufacturers yes. You can read more about fire barriers and the complex and controversial issues surrounding mattress "safety" and chemicals in a mattress in post #2 here . People who are sensitive to the chemicals used in some fire barriers can also get a prescription for a chemical free mattress which allows a manufacturer to sell a mattress without a fire barrier.

2) There was a mention that 100% natural Talalay from Latex International had silica in it which dramatically shorten its lifespan. Is there truth to this? They seem to like Dunlop better than Talalay (especially the blended variety). It's hard to decide when everybody has contradicting opinions on matters depending on what they sell.


I know the blended Talalay contains filler (a form of silicate material is used) but I've never asked them about their 100% natural formulation although I would imagine it contains them as well. Fillers can shorten the life of a foam or reduce its cost or they can add various desirable properties to the foam including durability as well. It's never as simple as just "fillers are bad" and it all depends on the specific formulation and chemistry of the foam and the type and amount of fillers used. There is more about the different types of latex in this article and post #6 here

3) What are the merits of a 3" + 3" + 3" design versus a 6" + 3" design? Is it mainly patents or does one work better than the other. Each manufacturer of each type always touts that theirs is the best. For example, the 3+3+3 supposedly can be more configurable but proponents of the 6+3 design say that we shouldn't put a softer layer under a firmer layer. Again, it's always tough to know who to believe. So for our weights, only 6" of the mattress matter for either design since we won't be bottoming it out?


I usually don't buy into any "best worst" arguments. Everything usually has a tradeoff of some kind and what is "best" is up to each person to decide based on their preferences. 3 layer mattresses have the advantage of being able to re-arrange or exchange more layers to adjust the feel and performance of the mattress in more ways than a 2 layer mattress. Even a 1 layer mattress that matches someone's needs and preferences would be fine for the person that prefers it and in that case there would be no reason for more. Sometimes simpler or less complex can be easier to predict in terms of changes and there can also be cost advantages to layers that don't need to be cut from the original 6" core.

There is nothing intrinsically "wrong" with putting softer latex under firmer latex to a point. I would tend to avoid thick layers of any soft material on the bottom of a mattress (although thinner layers such as those in a two sided mattress are usually fine as well) because it could affect alignment and support but other than that the sky is the limit and each person can decide for themselves which type of layering they prefer or best matches their needs and preferences.

A firmer layer over a softer layer in certain types of mattress designs is called a "dominant layer" and some people even prefer its feel and performance although it's typically done with relatively thinner layers of firmer foam over thicker layers of softer foam or in quilting layers. If 6" of latex matches your needs and preferences then there is nothing wrong with that either although thinner mattresses will tend to be firmer than thicker mattresses with the same layers on top of it and may not be as adaptable to different body types and sleeping positions as thicker layering. At your weight you certainly wouldn't bottom out on 6" of latex but only you can decide if it matches your needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences).

4) There seems to be even more choices with this company. How do I know how much wool I want in the cover? How do I choose whether I get a quilted (two sided fabric with wool in between) or raw batting+case? Do people usually wash their removable covers or will a mattress cover pretty much protect the case? What type of quilting pattern should I choose and how will each affect the feel of the mattress? I think sometimes more choices make the decision harder.


Again ... I would avoid the type of thinking or assessment that thinks in terms of "better or worse" and find out where in the range you may be with any choice you have. The best way to answer these types of questions is to talk with them so they can explain the advantages and disadvantages of the different options they offer and then make a choice based on the benefits and tradeoffs that are most important to you. The more wool you have on top of the latex the more it will affect the feel of the latex and its ability to compress and take your shape under your weight and the more you would feel the properties of the wool. Wool is also very good at controlling temperature and humidity in a mattress. Some people even have a thick wool topper on top of their mattress because they love the feel of sleeping on thicker layers of wool and others have as little wool as possible or no wool at all so that they can feel more of the latex comfort layers. All of this is personal preference.

Your questions and uncertainty also reinforces the argument mentioned in the two or 3 latex layer question that sometimes less options are "better" because they can help alleviate uncertainty and make choices easier :)

Some covers are washable and some aren't. Again these are questions that should go to the retailer or manufacturer themselves so they can give you the answers that apply to the materials and components they sell.

5) Since they just sell the parts, what stops the public from just buying latex directly from a wholesaler or from the manufacturer?


Nothing stops it. In general manufacturers and wholesalers don't sell to the public in small quantities but many people buy component parts to make their own DIY mattresses. You can see some examples of where you can buy these in post #4 here . If you go in this direction and decide to work outside the guidance of a mattress manufacturer, most people will find that mattress layering and design and the selection of components can be more complex and takes more skill and knowledge than they were prepared for and often end up spending more than they would have if they had worked with a mattress manufacturer who sells mattresses with exchangeable layering that could have helped them avoid all the mistakes they made.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by phoenix.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 05 Mar 2013 20:52 #7

Your responses are very helpful although I feel as I get more information, I continue to torment myself with all the variables. I agree there is no universal "best" for everybody but given the info on our needs/preferences, we I almost need an authority to vindicate the final decisions or I'll continually second guess myself. I almost want to become an expert in the foam layer and quilting interactions since I always find it hard to trust the opinions of someone trying to sell me something. Even two salesmen from the same company can try to push me towards two different directions. That's why I respect your opinion so much since you have nothing to gain/lose from what you tell me.

I would tend to avoid thick layers of any soft material on the bottom of a mattress


How thick is too thick? Is 3" too thick? If I were to upgrade to a 3" topper and it was too soft for me, would it be a viable option to put a 6" 32 ILD talalay core on top of the 3" 19 ILD topper?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 05 Mar 2013 20:55 #8

Also, with all the stories of latex mattresses from the 50's/60's lasting until now, what were those made of? Talalay or Dunlop? Blended or 100% Natural?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 05 Mar 2013 23:53 #9

Hi rapscalli0n,

The Dunlop process was invented in 1929 and the Sears mattresses sold in the 40's, 50's and later were natural Dunlop often in firmer layers that were often only 4" thick. The Talalay process was invented in the late 1930's and was refined and made commercially viable in the late 1940's. It gained in market share and by the late 1960's it had captured about 40% of the US latex market share. At that time the Talalay being produced was blended so when you hear stories about latex from that time lasting decades it would typically be either a single layer of natural Dunlop like the Sears mattresses or blended Talalay. The focus on natural products didn't really exist at the time and many of the stories you hear don't differentiate the type of latex. Latex International introduced their 100% natural Talalay in North America less than 10 years ago mainly to attract the growing market for natural products.

I would think that there are more Dunlop stories about latex mattresses lasting decades that are documented than there are Talalay (you can see one example here ) but I have talked with manufacturers that have worked with and have personal experience with both types lasting decades.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by phoenix.

Final advice before purchasing Latex Mattress 06 Mar 2013 15:54 #10

Thanks Phoenix. It's good to know that Dunlop and blended Talalay have such a good track record. Maybe my next mattress in 30 years will be natural Talalay depending on how it proves itself in the field. It makes me more comfortable going with the blended Talalay as long as the SBR in the blend doesn't cause health concerns. Can't be as bad as memory foam, right?

I can't remember if I read it on this site, but is there truth to the claim that the Dunlop cellular structure is like a snowflake and the Talalay cellular structure is more spherical? Therefore, when forces apply, the snowflake structure tends to crush and break while spheres are more resilient?

Also, any thoughts on post #7?

I appreciate all the help!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Moderators: NikkiTMU
The Mattress UndergroundCopyright © 2021 The Mattress Underground.
TheMattressUndergounf
TMU
TheMattressUndergounf