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Where to get clay-like hard long-lasting memory foam?

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10 Apr 2013 17:28 - 11 Dec 2018 04:14 #1 by brian.r.hamilton
Is Tempurpedic the only one that makes this stuff? We just got a 2" Sensus 5# density topper & it is soft like any other polyurethane foam. Very disappointed & it was expensive.

Ideally, we want to copy an all-in-one mattress we bought from Amazon. For about the middle third of it's pathetic 9 month lifespan it was perfect! Here's a link: www.amazon.com/Sleep-Innovations-SureTem..._dp_R0Azrb0KYRDW0_im

I don't know if what we got was the norm, but the top is 3" of very firm memory foam glued to 7" of very firm polyurethane foam. The memory foam was a bit too firm for the first few months but then perfect for the next 3. The last 3 were all downhill & we now sink to the hard base foam.

We've tried all sorts of foam bed layers over the years & have had the best longevity from latex for a base. We still have some & would like to use it but just cannot find a memory topper that is firm & lasts! The top off that Sleep Innovations mattress is NOT soft or springy at all. It only softens in areas with higher heat/pressure, I've heard "clay-like" used as a complaint but this is exactly what we want! The only mattresses we've tried that have a similar feeling memory foam are Tempurpedic. We've wasted more than enough to buy one or more of these already. Please help!
Last edit: 11 Dec 2018 04:14 by Administrator TMU. Reason: Updating link to https: status

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10 Apr 2013 21:43 - 10 Apr 2013 21:45 #2 by Phoenix
Hi brian.r.hamilton,

Is Tempurpedic the only one that makes this stuff? We just got a 2" Sensus 5# density topper & it is soft like any other polyurethane foam. Very disappointed & it was expensive.


You probably know this and it was most likely a typo but just to clarify ... memory foam is not the same thing as polyfoam ... even though it uses similar chemicals in its manufacturing. Memory foam is slow response and polyfoam is a fast response material.

Polyfoam comes in a huge range of firmness levels from ultra soft to ultra firm and responds to pressure. Memory foam is all "soft" (although some are in different parts of the soft range) and responds to pressure, temperature, humidity, and length of time it is compressed. there are also many other factors that affect how it feels and performs so its softness depends on many variables. Having said this ... while the density of memory foam is the primary factor in its quality and durability (how long it willkeep its original properties) ... it also comes in a very wide range of different types and each of them have been manufactured to have different characteristics, response, and properties. You can read more about this in post #9 here and post #8 here .

Because of the number of factors that can affect the feel and performance of memory foam ... different people will describe the same memory foam in different ways and the environment in the bedroom (and the layers over and under the memory foam as well) will also play a significant role in how each type of memory foam feels for each person.

Overall though ... the best way to approach buying memory foam is to talk with each supplier. If they are knowledgeable about thee memory foam they are selling and have experience with other types of memory foam ... they will be able to give you a sense of how the particular memory foam they supply compares to the "feel" and response of the Tempurpedic memory foam (because it is so well known). In these cases ... who you buy from and their knowledge and experience can be just as important as what you buy. Some of the better sources for memory foam I'm aware of are listed in post #4 here .

I don't know if what we got was the norm, but the top is 3" of very firm memory foam glued to 7" of very firm polyurethane foam. The memory foam was a bit too firm for the first few months but then perfect for the next 3. The last 3 were all downhill & we now sink to the hard base foam.


This is fairly typical of lower quality/density memory foam which will soften faster than higher quality/density memory foam. Higher density memory foam (or any foam for that matter) keeps it's original properties for longer once it is past the initial softening and break-in period (usually 90 days or less).

Phoenix

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Last edit: 10 Apr 2013 21:45 by Phoenix.

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10 Apr 2013 22:27 #3 by g1981c
actually Phoenix technically speaking not all memory foam is soft. 5LB Foamex Energia Memory Foam is 35 ILD which is firm enough to be used as a core layer - and that's precisely why you will never find this foam for actual sale. people want memory foam for toppers to go on top of existing mattresses which only need a bit of plushness added - which is why the only memory foam one can actually find is all soft.

any firm memory foam however would probably have very little memory effect.

i think it basically works something like this: FIRMNESS = DENSITY / MEMORY EFFECT

so you can increase firmness by increasing denisity or by sacrificing memory effect. in practice anything over 5 LBS is too expensive to be profitable so you can just think of density as a constant at 5 LBS and firmness as being the inverse of memory effect.

my guess is that in tempurpedic they use a top layer of true memory foam, bottom layer of regular PU foam and a medium layer of SEMI-MEMORY foam. however i don't think you would be able to find such a foam for sale.

what i did is i ordered 24 ILD slow response Talalay GL latex - which should feel similar to the kind of firm memory foam you're looking for, but it's not technically a memory foam ( doesn't share the same chemistry, just similar characteristics ).

i have yet to receive it however so i can't comment on whether it is any good.

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11 Apr 2013 02:09 - 11 Apr 2013 02:10 #4 by Phoenix
Hi g1981c,

Energia is not memory foam.

Your formula is also not accurate. Density and firmness are not directly related (you can read the posts I linked in the reply to brian.r.hamilton previous to yours).

There is no such thing as "semi memory foam".

Phoenix

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Last edit: 11 Apr 2013 02:10 by Phoenix.

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11 Apr 2013 03:12 #5 by g1981c
rocky mountain lists Energia as Memory Foam - which doesn't mean anything of course. So if it's not memory foam - then what is it ?

I'm sorry if i implied that relationship between density and firmness is direct. If anything, based on what little physics i had in college, i would have to guess that firmness ( all else, such as cell size and chemistry, being equal ) is more closely correlated with the square of density.

anyway, i don't mean to argue. i just wanted to raise a point. the question hamilton asked is what i was meaning to ask myself - as i am also frustrated with the fact that virtually all memory foam out there falls into 10 to 15 ILD range which is almost a margin of error and not a range at all. i would have loved a memory foam in the 20 ILD range so i could put a thicker breathable topper on top of it.

the top of the line tempurpedic uses almost 10 inches of "tempur" which to me means at least some of it should have been 20 ILD or higher.

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11 Apr 2013 03:14 - 11 Apr 2013 03:21 #6 by brian.r.hamilton
It wasn't a typo - I meant it as written. The Sensus we received responds just like a medium density polyurethane foam. The "memory" effect lasts less than a second. The foam is MUCH softer & springier than any Tempurpedic mattress we've demoed. If I press my hand into the one-piece mattress, it takes many seconds for the print to disappear. It is also much firmer than the Sensus when pressed.

It just seems crazy to me that there isn't a uniform measurement system for memory foam. This is exactly why so many people feel scammed by the mattress industry.

I guess we must have received a "defective product." Wish me luck trying to return it.
Last edit: 11 Apr 2013 03:21 by brian.r.hamilton.

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11 Apr 2013 04:08 - 11 Apr 2013 19:04 #7 by Phoenix
Hi brian.r.hamilton,

Even with a 1 second memory effect (without being fully warmed up) it wouldn't be anything like most polyfoam ... unless of course you received a layer that wasn't Sensus. You can see a video that shows the relative return speeds (without being warmed up) of 6 different memory foams including 5 lb Sensus here .

I guess we must have received a "defective product." Wish me luck trying to return it.


Good luck ... I hope you are successful and that where you purchased allows returns :)

Phoenix

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Last edit: 11 Apr 2013 19:04 by Phoenix.

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11 Apr 2013 15:05 - 11 Apr 2013 15:11 #8 by brian.r.hamilton
I think you meant this URL: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgM38sisM-4 , but thanks, I found it & it is helpful. The Sensus that we have returns a little faster than the Sensus in this example, but similar enough that I don't think it would be reasonable to call it defective. I have no reason to believe it's not authentic either. Just definitely not what I'm after.

The memory foam on the Sleep Innovations mattress is initially much more supportive than the Sensus. There's just no comparison. When you first lie on the mattress, it still feels like when it was new, & is almost too firm. You wouldn't want to just fall back or certainly not face first onto this mattress! It would seriously be painful! It takes a few minutes for your body to warm the foam before it starts to obviously conform, truly feels like a melting sensation. The Sensus topper doesn't seem to change at all as it warms up. The Sleep Innovations, using the fist push method as in the video, takes at least twice as long to return to about 80% of it's height but probably 4 or 5 times longer for all impressions to disappear.

I don't see any similarity between the Foamex products in that video & anything we've tested by Tempurpedic or our Sleep Innovations mattress. The Sleep Innovations & Tempurpedic are very similar. The Foamex products just seem like plain old foam with a little bit of "memory" effect.

Our "good" bed, from FloBeds.com, has latex cores that we are in the process of updating. We had 2 replaced via warranty that failed after about 7 or 8 years & are in the process of replacing the remaining 2, likely with firmer versions this time around. However, we want to find a topper, or some combination no more than about 2-3" think, that give us this "molded-clay hard" feel!

FloBeds.com offers a Sensus topper which obviously isn't what we want. When we bought the bed, it had a 2" memory foam topper from Carpenter, I think, but I'm not positive on the manufacturer. It was very white & felt pretty similar to the Sensus. It lasted about 5 years (FloBeds said to expect 3-5 years) before we started our quest to find a better replacement. We have literally tried at least a dozen toppers over the past 10 years with zero success. We have never returned any because it's just a total pain in the butt! We have supported the construction of MANY very nice pet beds for us & our friends!

What specification do you think best describes this profound difference (as we see it)? How, other than by having a sample or video in hand, describe/find the foam that we want? It really shouldn't be as difficult as it has been to find what we want (as I've described above). Very frustrating.
Last edit: 11 Apr 2013 15:11 by brian.r.hamilton.

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11 Apr 2013 15:31 #9 by brian.r.hamilton
The memory foam toppers at memoryfoam.com (from one of your links) are even more expensive than Sensus & the specs that are posted are pretty much the same. I've been to that site & many others like it over the last 10 years. There is no obvious reason I would choose to try that foam other than perhaps your recommendation. There are probably a thousand sites just like this selling memory foam that claim to be like (or better) than Tempurpedic. Of course searching for rock hard memory foam is useless because who would want that? Do you see the frustration?

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11 Apr 2013 19:58 #10 by Phoenix
Hi G1981c,

rocky mountain lists Energia as Memory Foam - which doesn't mean anything of course. So if it's not memory foam - then what is it ?


You can see FXI's description here . It's a high resiliency high density polyfoam meant to have some of the shape conforming (point elastic) properties of memory foam and the higher resiliency and support of latex. Memory foam is a low resilience material (meaning it has high hysteresis or the ability to absorb energy which is the opposite of resiliency).

I'm sorry if i implied that relationship between density and firmness is direct. If anything, based on what little physics i had in college, i would have to guess that firmness ( all else, such as cell size and chemistry, being equal ) is more closely correlated with the square of density.


Density and firmness are not related with polyfoam. You could have a 1.5 lb polyfoam that had an ILD of 40 (very firm) and you could also have a 3 lb polyfoam which had an ILD of 12 (very soft). The opposite could also be true (1.5 lb polyfoam that was very soft and 3 lb polyfoam that was ultra firm). Density and firmness are not related with polyfoam and any density can be made in a very wide range of firmness levels. With memory foam density and perceived firmness (which is different from tested firmness) are more closely related because there are many factors involved in the perception of firmness. Honey (or water) for example can be firm if you slap it and soft if you compress it slowly because of the response time connected with viscous materials. With latex this is different again and density and firmness are very closely connected.

Density in polyfoam and memory foam is more closely connected with compression modulus (another major factor in perceived firmness) than it is with firmness.

anyway, i don't mean to argue. i just wanted to raise a point. the question hamilton asked is what i was meaning to ask myself - as i am also frustrated with the fact that virtually all memory foam out there falls into 10 to 15 ILD range which is almost a margin of error and not a range at all. i would have loved a memory foam in the 20 ILD range so i could put a thicker breathable topper on top of it.


I don't see this as an argument at all ... just helping you understand how foam works and correcting some of your assumptions.

ILD is also very misleading when you are testing a slow response material because of the testing methods used and the hysteresis of the material and because the ILD changes according to environmental and other factors (such as heat, humidity, and time compressed). Visco elastic materials also exhibit a phenomenon called "creep" which means they internally relax with constant pressure over time so if you start off with a memory foam of a certain ILD and sleep on it for a period of time the ILD will become lower ... even if the temperature and humidity remain constant ... just because of foam creep.

There is some memory foam in the range of 18 - 20 ILD (and some slow response latex as well) but it may not have the slow response or temperature response that goes with many first generation memory foams.

Phoenix

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