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Shooting at a moving target? 11 Jun 2013 09:04 #1

So I've tried various configurations with my 100% blended talalay setup. I have 4 ea 3" layers. (see my SleepEZ 13000 review) and have been quite happy with the bed especially the quick reconfiguration capabilities.

I was a believer in Med over soft over firm, but in time started to get pain. I tried going the former route med over med over firm and this was the wrong direction so I went back to med over soft. This works pretty well, but in the morning when I wake up I have pain in my lower back (back sleeper) and need time to loosen it up.

Since the firmer route was clearly not the way I switched to soft over med and this was great the first couple of nights. Now I have minor pain that is causing difficulty sleeping. It's not the sharp low back pain like I get with the other configs, it's more of a nagging pain.

So do I give it a few more days (been almost a week now) and hope this is just muscle pain that I can work through?

Seems I'm almost out of options with the exception of trying soft/soft Med route and at 6'1 and 215# and a middle bias I have my doubts that I should even be directly on a soft ILD. Wondering about adding a 1/2" layer of some sort of semi stiff wool matting above the latex.

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Last edit: by TD-Max.

Shooting at a moving target? 11 Jun 2013 16:27 #2

Hi TD-Max,

I was a believer in Med over soft over firm, but in time started to get pain. I tried going the former route med over med over firm and this was the wrong direction so I went back to med over soft. This works pretty well, but in the morning when I wake up I have pain in my lower back (back sleeper) and need time to loosen it up.


Pain or discomfort that you feel more in the morning tends to be connected to alignment issues which usually points to relatively firmer support under the pelvic area (as you probably know).

Since the firmer route was clearly not the way I switched to soft over med and this was great the first couple of nights. Now I have minor pain that is causing difficulty sleeping. It's not the sharp low back pain like I get with the other configs, it's more of a nagging pain.


Where is this pain? It may also be worth considering soft over firm (The soft providing good pressure relief and the firm "stopping" your pelvis from sinking down too far past the comfort layer a little more quickly than the medium). The soft over medium seems to be "relatively" less (minor vs sharp) and may indicate you are heading in the right direction but need a little more firmness under the soft.

Seems I'm almost out of options with the exception of trying soft/soft Med route and at 6'1 and 215# and a middle bias I have my doubts that I should even be directly on a soft ILD. Wondering about adding a 1/2" layer of some sort of semi stiff wool matting above the latex.


I see no inherent problem in using soft ILD in the top layer. Sometimes the key with alignment issues is the thickness of the top layer (how far your heavier areas can "travel" before they "reach" the firmer support layers) and in the firmness of the layers below them (how quickly they apply the "brakes" to sinking down further in your pelvis).

The wool (probably thicker would be more suitable if you go in this direction) would certainly reduce the compression of the latex layers below it but would also reduce the "support" in the arch of your back (wool is less resilient than latex). The benefit of this would depend on whether you need to "stop" the pelvis faster (which it would do because it would increase the surface area that was compressing the latex) or if you need firmer support under the more recessed areas of your body to "compensate" for more weight in the middle.

As an experiment to see how it affects you it may be worthwhile trying a 1" layer of firmer polyfoam (which generally costs little) cut to a length of about 1/3 the length of your mattress and adding it in the middle in between the deeper layers (such as in between layer 2 and layer 3) to see if this form of "zoning" helps or provides a pointer to what may be happening.

I would also be curious about what you experienced with 2 medium layers on top over firm and why you thought it was "heading in the wrong direction" (this also seems like a potential solution that would reduce the amount your pelvis is sinking in).

I think the first one I would try is soft over firm.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Shooting at a moving target? 12 Jun 2013 15:04 #3

So I've tried various configurations with my 100% blended talalay setup. I have 4 ea 3" layers. (see my SleepEZ 13000 review) and have been quite happy with the bed especially the quick reconfiguration capabilities.

I was a believer in Med over soft over firm, but in time started to get pain. I tried going the former route med over med over firm and this was the wrong direction so I went back to med over soft. This works pretty well, but in the morning when I wake up I have pain in my lower back (back sleeper) and need time to loosen it up.

Since the firmer route was clearly not the way I switched to soft over med and this was great the first couple of nights. Now I have minor pain that is causing difficulty sleeping. It's not the sharp low back pain like I get with the other configs, it's more of a nagging pain.

So do I give it a few more days (been almost a week now) and hope this is just muscle pain that I can work through?

Seems I'm almost out of options with the exception of trying soft/soft Med route and at 6'1 and 215# and a middle bias I have my doubts that I should even be directly on a soft ILD. Wondering about adding a 1/2" layer of some sort of semi stiff wool matting above the latex.


Have you tried zoning the top?:

1. Make sure it's on a solid platform so that there is no sag; and with no head/foot boards so that layers can lay over the edge.
2. Pull the cover top off if it does not stretch or is otherwise too taut such that it interferes with contouring or sinking in.
3. Put the firmest layer on the bottom and the next firmest on top of that for a logically progressive support core layer.
4. Put the softest layer over the upper body zone from your navel up.
5. Put the next softest layer over the lower body zone.

This would give you a 3-layer build with soft comfort under your upper body and medium comfort under your lower body:

s:m
f
xf

If this *improves* the spinal alignment pain, you could consider going forward with 2-zoning the comfort and transition support layers for your height and weight to perfect the spinal alignment and maximize the pressure relief, particularly for the upper body zone. Something like this:

3" 19:28 ILD comfort layer (zone seam at navel)
3" 28:36 ILD transition support layer (zone seam offset 5" toward feet )
3" or 6" 40 ILD support layer

The height of the upper body zone: height head-to-navel + 2/3 (80" mattress - 73" height)" (round to nearest inch)

This should improve spinal alignment and related lower back pain IF the lower body zone is firm enough for your weight, and the upper body zone is relatively softer to enable sinking in to achieve neutral spinal alignment.

This will not improve pressure relief and related pain if your existing layers yield a comfort or transition support layer that is too firm for your weight.

As I see it, the typical semi-custom Latex mattress has got you covered for pressure relief i.e. don't bother shuffling firmness up and down. What's missing is shoulder-hip spinal balance which requires a relative difference in cradle firmness from upper body to lower body, not from top of mattress to bottom of mattress.

Hope this helps.

zzz

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Last edit: by sleeping.

Shooting at a moving target? 14 Jun 2013 07:21 #4

Good advice from both and I'm torn. I think I need to keep my hips supported just a bit more.

What I can say is this: All previous setups felt excellent and supportive, but had me hurting when I woke up. Hurting like inflamed/pinched disk hurt to a point where it was difficult if not impossible to bend in the morning. I ended up siting in her Lazyboy for a bit as it has a huge lumbar bulge and after a sit and things settled down I might be able to move decent without being "grabbed" by the lower back. On particularly bad days it was ibuprofen time.


With the soft layer on top, I can get up and function pretty well. I just have a bit of general discomfort that wakes me. It feels like more of a muscular or "sub surface type pain than a core pain. Definite huge improvement.

So the question now is do I shift the firm upwards or try zoning? When I set this latex unit up I went with a full layer of medium intending it to remain on top. I think I can move this full layer down without causing too much disruption as I think her layer 3 is a medium as well. I guess I already have the layers to swap so that's the place to start.

Background:

I tell ya when shopping the S brands I was continually drawn to the more deluxe Stearns models. Sealy never cut it for me, but the Stearns in the $2600 range (I think it was Jaclyn) was instantly AHHH. It had a lot of soft up top and I could feel the core supporting me. I told myself that soft was not the answer, but maybe it is?

In the end I knew the S brands would not hold up although I did get my warranty approved and have a brand new Stearns Felisha standing in the basement. This will become a guest bed sooner or later and an alternative for me if I need to change things up.

I am SO glad I went to a zip open model .

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Last edit: by TD-Max.

Shooting at a moving target? 14 Jun 2013 10:49 #5

Hi TD-Max,

With the soft layer on top, I can get up and function pretty well. I just have a bit of general discomfort that wakes me. It feels like more of a muscular or "sub surface type pain than a core pain. Definite huge improvement.

So the question now is do I shift the firm upwards or try zoning? When I set this latex unit up I went with a full layer of medium intending it to remain on top. I think I can move this full layer down without causing too much disruption as I think her layer 3 is a medium as well. I guess I already have the layers to swap so that's the place to start.


If it's possible with your setup I would start with the S/F top two layers (with the single medium layer under that) because based on your feedback it probably has the highest odds of success. This would provide you with the softer top layers that "fill in" the gaps the best but has firmer support directly underneath it as well to "stop" the pelvis faster than a softer second layer. Once you have tried this, then more complex zoning options are still a possibility if they are necessary. Zoning is needed less often with latex because of its high compression modulus where even softer layers get firmer more rapidly than other materials as you compress them more deeply but every body is different and as you know what works well for most may not work as well for any specific person.

I'm glad you went with a component system as well and the ability to re-arrange is certainly part of its value. ln effect you have the chance to sleep on the equivalent of many different mattresses all wrapped up into one :)

Let us know how it goes.

Phoenix
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Shooting at a moving target? 17 Jun 2013 15:08 #6

I think I need to keep my hips supported just a bit more.


If you lower your upper body zone by removing a cover/pad that does not stretch and/or by installing less firm comfort and transition support layer Latex in that zone, your hips will become relatively higher as if having a bit more support. And you will have only added softness where you need and want it most.

zzz

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Last edit: by sleeping. Reason: Typo

Shooting at a moving target? 23 Jun 2013 18:10 #7

Soft over firm helped with the hips, but still not there yet.

The cover is Sleepez's wool top and doesn't really stretch. It zips all the way open, but does not come off.

On the plus side, while I wake with a bit of discomfort, I have yet to wake with my lower back "caught"

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Shooting at a moving target? 23 Jun 2013 18:18 #8

Soft over firm helped with the hips, but still not there yet.

The cover is Sleepez's wool top and doesn't really stretch. It zips all the way open, but does not come off.

On the plus side, while I wake with a bit of discomfort, I have yet to wake with my lower back "caught"


Unzipping it can help the upper body settle a touch, if it's tight. You may then notice a small improvement at the hips.

zzz

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Shooting at a moving target? 23 Jun 2013 19:27 #9

Hi TD-Max,

Just to bring some of the past information up to date (to save me searching for it in past posts) ...

Your "vital statistics" are ...

I'm 6'1" and 220# I carry a good bit around the middle. I am a back sleeper and when things are going good I stay in one spot which may be part of why I am hard on mattresses.

The layering in your mattress is ...

Medium not split
soft-soft split
med-firm split
firm-ex firm split

And the last configuration you tried (and your current "best" configuration so far on your side after trying many including dominating layers with firmer over softer layers) from top to bottom is ...

Soft/Firm/Medium/X-Firm.

The current "issue" that you are trying to resolve is that your hips are still sinking down too deeply (is this correct?)

I should also clarify what you mean by "not quite there yet" and the specific type of discomfort you are having. Are there actual symptoms involved in specific areas of your body when you go to sleep, during the night, or when you wake up, or is it more of a "feeling" or subjective preference you are trying to correct that is more about your preferences than actual or specific symptoms (or a combination of both).

What I'm trying to determine is whether your pelvis needs to be "held up" a little more than it currently is or whether there are other areas that need more support (such as the small of your back) and/or the specific type of changes that may be helpful.

Before I make more suggestions (or share some other ideas) it would probably be a good idea to make sure we are on the same page :)

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Shooting at a moving target? 24 Jun 2013 12:12 #10

You are correct with the S/F/M/XF config.

This helped the sinking of my pelvis.

What I think I am getting is a pressure related nagging ache in the middle of my back. It's just so hard to say.

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