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Thank you 05 Aug 2013 19:54 #1

Thank you to all those on the mattress underground for all the help.

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Last edit: by thebeerbaron83. Reason: Personal

Christeli much firmer than expected! 05 Aug 2013 20:39 #2

Hi thebeerbaron83,

I purchased a Christeli Tiffany mattress and have been sleeping on it for about five days now. When I first got the mattress I was very disappointed with the feel of it. It felt very firm and it did not seem to conform to my body much at all. The next night I tried the mattress without the waterproof protector on it (allegedly breathable and purchased from Christeli). It felt slightly better, but not much. I understand there is a break-in period for memory foam mattresses, but how much of a difference will there be?


There are two things that will happen concurrently when you buy a mattress ... both of which can have a small to significant effect on the feel and performance of a mattress depending on the materials themselves and on the person as well. One of these is the initial break in period where the materials in the mattress settle in, the cover stretches, and the foam softens and loses any "false loft" in its initial firmness. This will generally happen more quickly with lower density foams and a little slower with higher density foams. The other is the adjustment period where your body will adapt to the differences between a new sleeping surface and the one you are used to. Depending on how much difference there is between your old and new mattress ... this can also have a significant effect on how a mattress feels as your muscles "relearn" how to sleep and align themselves to a new sleeping surface. These both tend to happen over the first 90 days or so but in most cases the first 30 days are the most significant. The memory foam in the Tiffany is 5.3 lbs and may take a little longer to initially soften than say the 4 lb memory foams that are usually used as one of the memory foam layers in in most mattresses that are designed to "approximate" the Tempurpedic Cloud Luxe.

Post #2 here also has some information and suggestions that may be helpful with a new memory foam mattress (including the potential effect of a mattress protector that you mentioned).

I am a little skeptical buying online now, since the Tiffany was also supposed to be similar the cloud luxe. Is the Cirrus Luxe-ES 13" going to feel like the cloud luxe or is there another brand I should look at?


I would keep in mind that the "feel" of a mattress and the "softness" of a mattress are two different things because different types of memory foam use different chemical formulations that can change the feel and response of the memory foam even if they are the same softness or density. You can read more about the many differences in memory foams in post #9 here .

Having said that Dreamfoam has said and most of the members here that have purchased one seem to agree (in spite of softness being somewhat subjective) that their 13" gel memory foam mattress has a similar softness level to the Tempurpedic Cloud Luxe except it's just a bit firmer.

Post #12 here has a list of some of the better online memory foam manufacturers that I'm aware of and most of these would be quite knowledgeable about how their mattresses compared in terms of "feel", quality/density of materials, or design (or sometimes all three) to the various Tempurpedic models or in some cases some of the other more widespread or better known memory foam mattresses made by major manufacturers.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Christeli 06 Aug 2013 08:12 #3

Thank you to all those on the mattress underground for all the help.

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Last edit: by thebeerbaron83. Reason: personal

Christeli much firmer than expected! 06 Aug 2013 13:43 #4

Hi thebeerbaron83,

Christeli used to be called Luxepedic and their mattresses are made by Park Place which is an old and independent manufacturer that typically makes better quality and value mattresses compared to most of the larger mainstream choices. They are over 80 years old and still owned by the same family that founded them.

A forum search on Luxepedic or Christeli (you can just click these) will bring up more information about them that has evolved over time as they have continued to improve their mattresses and the information and service they provide to their customers.

The Christeli mattresses have an innovative modular design (topper and base mattress) that use good quality materials (5 and 8 lb memory foam, 2 lb polyfoam, and latex) and are good quality and value. In my conversations with them, especially recently, I also found them to be knowledgeable, transparent, and informative. They are certainly among some of the better online memory foam choices available. You can see some of the other online memory foam sources that I also consider to be among the better quality, value, and service choices in post #12 here .

The return policy says they will pay for the return shipping, but I have to roll and repackage the mattress in the original box and drop it off at a Fedex location. They told me over the phone when I bought it, they roll it by hand and package it. I have read other post from you saying this is typically done by a machine. Is repackaging this going to be a difficult task?


They roll their own mattresses by hand without compression for shipping and they have told me that their customers that do end up returning their mattresses typically don't have any problems rolling it up, putting it in the box, and delivering it to the courier. They don't require the original box (you can purchase a new one if you need to) and for those few customers that do have any difficulties then a phone call will usually give you some suggestions that will help.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Christeli 06 Aug 2013 15:56 #5

Thank you to all those on the mattress underground for all the help.

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Last edit: by thebeerbaron83. Reason: personal

Christeli much firmer than expected! 06 Aug 2013 19:20 #6

Hi thebeerbaron,

8 lb memory foam can be softer and more conforming than 5 lb memory foam (depending on the formulation) so the order of the layers in a design and the mix of memory foam is to create the "feel" they are looking for. The characteristics of the upper layers will tend to have the biggest influence in how the two layers interact and "feel" together.

Latex has an unusual combination of surface softness and deeper firmness/support that comes from it's elasticity, it's point elasticity (ability to conform to the shape of a body) and it's compression modulus (the ability to get firmer faster with deeper compression than other types of foam). This means that it can enhance the pressure relieving layers above it because of its surface softness and point elasticity but it is also very supportive and can "stop" the heavier parts of the body from sinking in too deeply. It is also very resilient (it returns a high percentage of the energy of compression instead of absorbing it like memory foam which has very low resilience) so it can enhance the "feel" of the mattress by making it more responsive and more adaptable to different body profiles and sleeping positions rather than the less responsive feeling of memory foam or the stiffer and less adaptable characteristics of polyfoam. Latex is also a very durable material (it's the most durable of all the foam types) so it can add to the durability of a mattress compared to other materials but the deeper layers of a mattress have less effect on mattress durability (a mattress will soften and break down from the top down) and more of an effect on performance and support/alignment so this would be less of a factor in its use.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Christeli much firmer than expected! 07 Aug 2013 08:16 #7

Wow! This is a great site before one ventures into the purchase of a memory foam bed.

theBeerbaron, I too have been considering the Christeli and Dreamfoam models and was wondering if you noticed any difference in the softness when you switched/flipped the Ortho-Core support? Also wondering if you have noticed much difference between the Tiffany and brick and mortar models in regards to Christeli's "Better Edge" feature. Seems to make sense from an engineering standpoint, but was wondering how it actually felt. Good luck with your experimentation and hope all works out well for you.

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Last edit: by Fitz.

Christeli mattress 07 Aug 2013 14:09 #8

Thank you to all those on the mattress underground for all the help.

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Last edit: by thebeerbaron83. Reason: personal

Christeli much firmer than expected! 07 Aug 2013 14:19 #9

Hi thebeerbaron83,

I should have mentioned in my original reply that there are also other manufacturers that use their higher density memory foam in the top layer as well including Tempurpedic.

The Tempurpedic Allura for example does the same thing (and their 7 lb memory foam is softer than their 5.3 lb memory foam) and the Christelli Charleston is designed to approximate the Allura.

There are several ways that can be used to "approximate" or "match" one mattress to another in different ways.

One of these is by perceived softness/firmness or "equivalence". This means that even though the materials may be very different in terms of type or density, the overall softness/firmness of the combination of materials in terms of comfort/pressure relief and support/alignment can be close equivalents. In this case you could have two mattresses that had a very similar perceived softness level or alignment/support for most people initially but if one uses lower quality materials and one uses higher quality/density materials then the equivalence won't last as long because the mattress with lower quality materials will tend to soften and break down more quickly than the higher quality materials. As this happens, their similarities start to become less over time ... sometimes quite quickly ... because lower quality materials will soften and break down more rapidly than higher quality materials. You can test for this kind of similarity in side by side testing in real time because softness and firmness is relative to each person and can vary with different body types, sleeping positions, individual perceptions, and with how much time has passed in between testing two mattresses and with time, changing circumstances, and reference points (a mattress that you test in the morning for example can feel softer or firmer than the same mattress you test in the afternoon if you have tested other mattresses in between or if you are more or less tired or more or less tense).

Second is perceived "feel". This is different from just softness and support because even though different materials or combinations may have a similar level of softness/firmness, they can also have different properties and response characteristics or interact together in different ways (things like resilience/springiness, temperature sensitivity, response time, ability to conform to a body shape, depth of cradling, ease of movement, and other more subjective qualities of a material beyond just softness/firmness itself). The perception of "feel" is much more subjective than softness/firmness and depends on how the combination of all the different layers and components interact together with each other combined with the preferences, perceptions, and sensitivities of each person. Because feel is so subjective, not all people will agree that two mattresses have a similar "feel" even though they have similar softness levels or support levels. Again you can test for this with real time side by side testing. The conditions of the sleeping environment can also play a role in how two memory foam mattresses compare because memory foam can change it's softness/firmness, response, and "feel" based on temperature and humidity and the length of time it is compressed.

The third is by material quality. A mattress may use the same quality of materials (such as the same density of memory foam or polyfoam or the same type and blend of latex) but have a different design, softness and support level, or feel so they may be roughly equivalent in terms of the quality and durability of the materials but may not have the same comfort, support, or feel. There are also qualitative differences between how two different foams are manufactured that can add to the desirable properties of a foam (such as using a foam formulation that makes the foam more supportive or adding more costly materials to a foam such as gel in higher proportions) that can also affect the cost of the materials even though the density or durability would be the same. This means that two materials that may have equal quality/durability may have a very different "feel" or performance. The only way to know how two mattresses compare in terms of quality and durability is by knowing the specifics of every layer and component in a mattress so you can identify any weak links in a mattress and compare the quality of the materials used in each of them. You can't "feel" the quality of the materials so testing won't tell you anything about the quality or durability of a mattress. While the main durability factor is the relative density of a foam ... there is more about some of the other factors that can affect the relative durability of a mattress in post #4 here .

Finally is by overall design. This means that the mattress not only uses the same type and quality of materials but also uses approximately the same layer thicknesses, order of the layers, and amount of each material and has a similar cover (which can also affect the feel and performance of a mattress). This means that a mattress that used say 2" of 4 lb memory foam over 3" of 5 lb memory foam over a firmer 2 lb polyfoam support core would have a very similar design to another mattress that used 2" of 4 lb memory foam over 3" of 5 lb memory foam over a firmer 2 lb polyfoam support core (or at least is very close in terms of the thickness of the layers, type and density of all the materials and components, and the order of layering) but they may still not have the same comfort, support or "feel" because the foams themselves may be different and have different firmness levels or other properties even though they are the same quality/density and the mattress has a very similar design. Once again ... you can only compare the overall design of a mattress by comparing the specifics of the materials inside the mattress including the order and thickness of all the layers and components. Knowing the design of mattress (the type, thickness, and quality of all the layers and components) is an important part of making meaningful comparisons in terms of its "material value" (comparing the type of components and materials and the the amount of each material used in two mattresses). For example 4" of 5 lb memory foam would generally be more costly than a mattress that used 2" of a similar 5 lb memory foam if all the other materials and components were the same.

Every difference between two mattresses either small or large (in terms of design or properties of the foam materials) can either add to the differences between them in terms of how they feel and perform or differences can also offset each other and make two mattresses that appear to be quite different feel similar or "equivalent". Again ... the only way to know this is with real time side by side testing or through more detailed conversations with a knowledgeable manufacturer or retailer.

Because there are so many objective and subjective elements involved in matching one mattress to another and because different materials or components can have the same quality in terms of density and durability and even the same design in terms of layer thickness but still still have different performance properties or "subjective feel" ... matching one mattress to another from the perspective of a mattress designer and from the perspective of a consumer can be as much an art as a science. Even if say 8 out of 10 people agree that one mattress is a close approximation to another in one or more ways in terms of feel and performance ... there will always be those who don't agree because their perceptions, preferences, or sensitivities are different.

A mattress that has the same design (the type, quality, and thickness of all the layers and components including the cover) and also has the same "feel" and performance for most people would be a "close approximation" to another similar mattress. This means that you would need to test both mattresses for PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and also know the specifics of all the layers and components in the mattress. Outside of this you would be dependent on the knowledge and experience of a retailer or manufacturer you were dealing with that had your best interests at heart and their familiarity with both mattresses based on their own testing and the experiences of their customers to have a reasonable idea of how closely one of their specific mattresses compares to a mattress you have tested in terms of feel and performance. If they provide the specifics of all the layers and components then you can also make more meaningful quality and value comparisons.

In many cases a mattress may be a close approximation in one or more than one way but not in others (or in some cases in all the ways a mattress can be "matched") and because each of these may be more important to some people than others and because individual perceptions can be very different, it's important to know the different objective and subjective ways that a mattress can be "matched" to another so that consumers can have realistic expectations and make more meaningful comparisons.

You can make reasonable comparisons of the quality/durability of two mattresses by comparing the density of the foams and the other durability factors in the linked post about durability.

You can compare the design of two mattresses by comparing the order, type, thickness, and density of each layer.

Most good manufacturers or retailers that use another major brand mattress as a reference point would give you good information based on their knowledge and experience about the relative softness/firmness and support/alignment and comfort/pressure relief of their mattresses compared to the mattress they use as a reference.

The feel of the mattress is the part that is most subjective and can be relative to the perceptions of each person. Because two foams can have the same density/durability or a similar softness/firmness but be made with different formulations or made by different manufacturers, they may have a different "feel" or response and this is much more difficult to assess or describe and much more difficult to "match". This is especially true with memory foam because there can be so many differences between similar density memory foams in terms of temperature sensitivity, response time, and firmness/softness between different memory foam manufacturers that can affect how the memory foam feels and performs even if the memory foam is the same density. As I mentioned, each person may also have a different idea about how close one mattress is to another in terms of overall subjective "feel" based on differences in their body type, sleeping style, or individual perceptions.

If a manufacturer suggests that a mattress "matches" another one you can use these guidelines as a reference and ask which of these criteria they mean when they say they match (by feel, softness/firmness equivalence, quality or design). How closely one mattress matches another also depends on the sensitivity of the person to small differences in a mattress so for some people that are closer to the "I can sleep on anything" end of the scale mattresses that may be quite different will feel the same and for others that are closer to the "princess and the pea" end of the scale then two mattresses that would be close to identical for most people may feel very different.


I would also consider the options you have available after a purchase and any return or exchange policies as part of the "value" of a mattress purchase because depending on your confidence in your choice this may also be one of the parts of your personal value equation that are important to you and can provide some measure of assurance that if in spite of the best efforts of both you and the manufacturer or retailer your choice doesn't turn out the way you hoped that you would still have good options available after a purchase. I would also keep in mind that any return or exchange policy also adds to the cost of a mattress and is built into the price so for some people this may be less important if after their local testing and conversations with the manufacturer or retailer they are confident that the mattress is a good "match" for them.

If all of this seems rather complex that's because it can be and because "mattress matching" is partly a science and partly an art, especially when you are also dealing with the varying subjective perceptions of different people. There is also more about mattress matching in post #2 here (which would also be well worth reading) and post #2 here (with some duplication) for those who want to read more.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Christeli much firmer than expected! 07 Aug 2013 21:57 #10

Thank you to all those on the mattress underground for all the help.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by thebeerbaron83. Reason: personal
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