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Scott Jordan vs. European Sleep Works (Berkeley Ergonomics)

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24 Oct 2013 14:31 #1 by campbellsa
My wife and I have been mattress shopping, we were about to pull the trigger on a Saatva and decided to visit Scott Jordan in NYC based on the advice on this website (thank you!).

We really liked their Oslo version, one side soft and one side firm, as well as their O2 pillow. Their retail price for the King is $2,310 (just the mattress, no slat system included). I came back last night and checked out the other retailers for Berkeley Ergonomics. Seems like they all charge about $2,100 for the same mattress, even though they have different names at each store. Finally, I came across European Sleep Works, and they only charge $1,400 for the Alpine Classic, which appears to be identical to the Oslo.

So I called ESW today to see about shipping, they said 6-8 weeks (vs. 14-21 days for SJ), but that the price was accurate and they would charge $300 for shipping. Basically, I'd be looking at $1,700 vs. $2,310 + $65 shipping + NY sales tax. All in-, about an $800 difference!

I called SJ back, since we had a great customer service experience there, to give them a chance to drop their price. They said they were sorry, but just don't discount. A couple hours later, the salesman from SJ called me back and left a voicemail saying he had done some research, and ESW no longer sells the Berkeley Ergonomics bed...that they are now selling a cheaper knockoff with inferior materials.

Can someone please help clear this up for me? We love the bed, just are trying to get the best deal and certainly don't want to buy a knockoff.

Thanks!!

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24 Oct 2013 15:10 #2 by campbellsa
And while I'm at it. Do you recommend any manufacturers other than BE (though similar mattress to their 2" latex/coil system) that may be more affordable? We're looking at over $3k by the time we add in the slat system.

Thanks!!

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24 Oct 2013 17:15 #3 by TMASC
Hello :)

I am pretty much 100% positive that European Sleepworks is selling the Berkeley Line, however the Oslo bed from Scott Jordan is a honeycomb nested German Spring and the Alpine bed that ESW sells is an inline nested swedish coil. The Oslo is a higher spec, ESW recently changed their website and they used to carry/show the equivalent to the Oslo and it was a little bit higher price to be sure. It likely was about $1800 or more if I recall correctly.

The Oslo bed *should* have a firmer feel than the Classic Alpine due to the honeycomb nesting of the springs, it is likely a more robust spring system in general. I hope that helps to clear up any of the confusion but please do not quote me on the price, it might have been even more than $1800 ;)

Cheers,
Daniel

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24 Oct 2013 17:46 - 24 Oct 2013 17:59 #4 by Phoenix
Hi campbellsa,

I just had a long (over 2 hours) conversation with Steven at Sleepworks who is another very knowledgeable "expert" in the industry that I think very highly of. I did confirm that they are are no longer carrying the Berkeley Ergonomics mattresses and are now manufacturing their own using different component sources for their springs and covers (although they both use Radium Talalay). They have similar types of components and overall designs but use different sources and the differences in their specific designs would create a different "feel" and response compared to the BE mattresses. Overall you could probably categorize them as being in a slightly softer range but of course this is like saying oranges and apples are both round and there are other differences between them as well so they wouldn't "match" a specific BE mattress that you have tried at Scott Jordan.

The change is quite recent and of course that means that I have a few forum posts to "edit" that shows them as carrying BE rather than their own designs :).

And while I'm at it. Do you recommend any manufacturers other than BE (though similar mattress to their 2" latex/coil system) that may be more affordable? We're looking at over $3k by the time we add in the slat system.


I would consider testing the mattress with and without the slat system to see if the difference between them justifies the additional cost.

Other than that though I don't recommend specific mattresses or have a database of the components that are used in the mattresses at each retailer or manufacturer I list (that would be impossible to keep up with) so if you are looking for specific types of components in a mattress then you would need to call the retailers or manufacturers on the NY list to see if they have mattresses that use those specific components and then of course your own testing could confirm if they were equivalent to any of the BE mattresses in terms of PPP. Just like the new line of mattresses at Sleepworks uses similar components but may not "feel" or perform the same as a mattress that uses different versions of the same components and materials. Every difference in design and materials can make a difference in how a mattress feels and performs. You may also find that there are other types of mattresses that also use high quality materials that are different at a lower cost that may be just as suitable for your specific needs and preferences even though they don't use the same components or materials in their mattresses. This is the part of research (testing for PPP) that only each person can do for themselves.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 24 Oct 2013 17:59 by Phoenix.

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24 Oct 2013 17:56 #5 by campbellsa
Well now this becomes more complicated! I was excited about the idea of saving so much on the SAME mattress, but without being able to try the different ESW mattress, I'm not so sure. I realize the materials may be different, but in your expert opinion are they $800 different? All else equal, we would actually probably prefer a bit softer anyway. What would you do? :)

Any other retailers in the NY area who may offer similar quality to the Oslo at a better price?

Thanks!

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24 Oct 2013 18:19 - 24 Oct 2013 18:20 #6 by Phoenix
Hi campbellsa,

I realize the materials may be different, but in your expert opinion are they $800 different? All else equal, we would actually probably prefer a bit softer anyway. What would you do? :)


I would consider all the different factors in my own " personal value equation " including your own personal testing and the suitability of each mattress, any difference in prices and materials, the exchange or adjustment options available after a purchase if you make the wrong choice and the costs involved in making exchanges, the risk of each purchase, your confidence that any mattress is a "match" for your specific needs and preferences, and any of the other objective, subjective, and intangible factors that are involved in each purchase that are most important to you.

My choice may be very different to yours or someone else's but any difference in price would certainly not be the only thing I considered. While the price and components of a mattress is of course an important part of value ... when you look back on a mattress purchase a decade from now you will remember much more about how well you slept (or didn't) and how long the mattress lasted you than you will about the price you paid.

A mattress that doesn't match your specific needs and preferences in terms of PPP would have little value to you no matter what you paid for it so when you are considering a mattress that you haven't tested in person it's a good idea to attach a "value" to the extra risk involved.

I can tell you that neither one has any obvious weak links in heir design and both could make good choices if they are a good "match" for you in terms of PPP and the other parts of your personal value equation.

Any other retailers in the NY area who may offer similar quality to the Oslo at a better price?


I added a paragraph in my last reply at the end that answered this (I didn't notice the question until after I posted the original reply so I edited it afterwards).

Phoenix

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Last edit: 24 Oct 2013 18:20 by Phoenix.

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24 Oct 2013 18:42 #7 by campbellsa
What an amazing forum. I really appreciate the thoughtful response.

I didn't see anyone on the membership list in NY. Is the NY list somewhere else?

Similar to my other question, is there a manufacturer similar to BE that I should look at? We were trying to stay under $2k. The Oslo has 2" talalay latex on top of the coils.

Thanks!

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24 Oct 2013 21:06 - 03 Oct 2014 15:52 #8 by Phoenix
Hi campbellsa,

I didn't see anyone on the membership list in NY. Is the NY list somewhere else?


None of the members of the site are in NY but the better possibilities I'm aware of in the area are listed in post #2 here and there is also a more categorized list with more detailed descriptions of some of them in post #7 here . NOTE ADDED: Scott Jordan is now a member of this site as well

Similar to my other question, is there a manufacturer similar to BE that I should look at? We were trying to stay under $2k. The Oslo has 2" talalay latex on top of the coils.


I don't know of any off the top of my head that sell mattresses with similar components (a combination of microcoils, latex, and innersprings) to BE but there are certainly other good options in the area.

Phoenix

Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last edit: 03 Oct 2014 15:52 by Phoenix.

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27 Oct 2013 18:55 #9 by TMASC
So I should probably just redact my original post in this thread to try to avoid misinformation. I can confirm what Phoenix has said regarding ESW changing their line of products; they used to be buying product from Berkeley Ergonomics and are now producing their own line in house.

There are still some qualitive differences that I would take into consideration.

ESW is still using cotton and wool covers however they are no longer organic; now that being said compared to a normal run of the mill mattress just to use natural wool and cotton is still a major advantage but it should be said that since they are no longer getting their fabric from Germany that is likely the single largest cost difference between the mattresses on a comparison basis.

They are not sourcing all of their springs from the same supplier, not to say that what the are using is any better or worse however I think it is now really difficult to directly compare coil counts.

I believe both companies to have excellent value but ESW is focusing more on making the mattress thicker and having higher spring counts for the price, where as Berkeley Ergonomics is taking a little bit more of a simpler less is more approach and using likely better quality components in general. Although the latex as Phoenix pointed out is still from the same source.

Cheers,
Daniel

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