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normal I bought the Wrong Mattress - Please Help!

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21 Nov 2014 12:18 #1 by swesson

So here is my situation. I have been a lurker here for several months, reading the tutorials, learning about construction and layers, asking the manufacturer about foam density and materials, and overall just taking everything in. I believe I followed everything step-by-step, except for maybe the "best value" category, but ended up with the wrong mattress. I need help.

I ended up purchasing a Plush Beds Eco Bliss 12" Latex "Hybrid" Medium Firmness Mattress and a Simple Life (Legget & Platt) Mattress Box Foundation. I am miserable with this mattress. I wake up every single day with middle and upper back pain. I toss and turn throughout the night and can't seem to stay comfortable. I am a side and back sleeper who sleeps hot. I was coming from a Simmons Natural Care Euro Top mattress that although doesn't satisfy most of the requirements on this site, I slept very well on. It was only five years old, but my wife and I wanted to upgrade from a Queen to a King. I can't tell you how much I want that mattress back right now.

When originally shopping, I went to Jamestown Mattress, one of the highly regarded local manufacturers Phoenix seems to have respect for. I was determined to go with latex since that is what my Simmons Natural Care mattress had, if only in the comfort layer, but when I got to Jamestown Mattress I realized I couldn't afford their $3k asking price for their heavenly cloud line. I did enjoy laying on their Dynasty - Super Firm Euro Top - Phoenix, I would be curious about your thoughts on the construction and quality of this mattress.

Fortunately, I am within the Plush Beds 100 day return window, but I don't know where to go from here. I need help and guidance. I thought I was doing everything right, but so far this has been a disaster and feel like I am back at square one, but with desperate need to find something new fast since my sleep and body are suffering. Admittedly, I over analyze and research the holy bejesus out of things, it usually doesn't burn me, but somehow I made a mistake along the way. Can someone help?

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21 Nov 2014 16:55 - 10 Jul 2015 11:31 #2 by Phoenix

Hi swesson,

I'm sorry to hear your choice didn't work out as well as you hoped for :( .

While I can't offer you specific advice because there are too many unknowns and variables involved in knowing which mattress or mattress design would be best for you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance (see post #2 here ) ... I can hopefully provide some information that can help you make a more informed choice about what to do next and the risk involved with each option you have.

First of all I'll make some more general comments in this post about the different ways to choose a mattress or choose options that are the most suitable choice and the level of risk that is involved with each one. In the next post I'll "translate" some of this into some suggestions that may be helpful for your specific situation.

I ended up purchasing a Plush Beds Eco Bliss 12" Latex "Hybrid" Medium Firmness Mattress and a Simple Life (Legget & Platt) Mattress Box Foundation. I am miserable with this mattress. I wake up every single day with middle and upper back pain. I toss and turn throughout the night and can't seem to stay comfortable. I am a side and back sleeper who sleeps hot. I was coming from a Simmons Natural Care Euro Top mattress that although doesn't satisfy most of the requirements on this site, I slept very well on. It was only five years old, but my wife and I wanted to upgrade from a Queen to a King. I can't tell you how much I want that mattress back right now.


There are three main parts to the value of a mattress purchase which are (in order of importance) 1. Suitability and how well you will sleep on a mattress, 2. Durability and how long you will sleep well, and 3. Value which is a combination of #1 and #2 along with all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you. (see post #13 here )

In your case you did well based on #2 because your mattress uses high quality and durable materials and there are no weak links in its design but without #1 (suitability and PPP) there is little value to a mattress purchase regardless of its durability (#2) or its value (#3) based on price or any of the other parts of value that are important to you.

Since suitability and PPP is the most important part of any mattress purchase ... it's important to recognize that this is the part of "value" that only you can know based on your own actual sleeping experience and that every method you choose to predict this will have some level of risk involved and that the risks involved in some are higher than the risks involved in others.

The most effective way to predict whether a specific mattress will be a suitable "match" for you before a purchase is based on your own careful and objective testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the mattress shopping tutorial). If this is done carefully enough then in most cases it will be "close enough" to your actual sleeping experience that only relatively minor fine tuning will be necessary if any is necessary at all. These could include the type of mattress protector you use, adding a mattress pad, the type of sheets and bedding that you choose, or in some cases even exchanging a layer in the mattress (if your mattress is a component mattress) or adding a topper ... see post #4 here ).

There are some people though that are much closer to the "princess and the pea" end of the sensitivity scale than they are to the "I can sleep on anything" end of the scale and because of this or because they have a more challenging physiology or health conditions that can make choosing a suitable mattress more difficult or because of a history of choosing a mattress that isn't the best match for them they may not be as confident that even careful testing will be able to predict whether they will sleep well on a mattress. In this case then the options you have after a purchase would become a more important part of your purchase decision so that you have the ability to make changes to your mattress either by changing individual layers or exchanging the mattress or even having the option to return the mattress for a refund after a purchase. While careful testing can do a very good job of predicting how well someone will sleep on a mattress for most people ... there will always be a minority that for various reasons have a more difficult time deciding on which mattress is best for them. I would also be aware that careful and objective testing is very different from the more limited or more "subjective" testing that most people do when they choose a mattress based on "showroom feel" which can have a lower chance of success than random chance alone (see this study )

When you aren't able to test a specific mattress in person before a purchase then there are only three remaining ways to predict whether a specific mattress would be a reasonable match for you in terms of PPP. They are ...

1. Basing your choice on a more detailed conversation on the phone with a knowledgeable and experienced online manufacturer or retailer that has your best interests at heart and can help "talk you through" the options they have available and help you choose the mattress that has the best chance of success based on the information you provide them and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you.

2. Basing your choice on reviews or other people's experience on a mattress. I would also be very cautious about using someone else's experience on any mattress or mattress reviews (either positive or negative) as a meaningful source of guidance about how a mattress will feel for you because firmness and softness is very subjective and relative to different people (a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel soft for someone else) and each person can be very different. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be more or less sensitive to (see post #15 here ) and a mattress that is a "perfect" match for one person in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, or Personal preferences) may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on ... even if they are in similar weight ranges. Using other people's mattress reviews or experiences as a meaningful source of research and information can often be more misleading than helpful (see post #13 here ).

3. Basing your choice on "theory" or on trying to match the specs of similar mattresses with similar designs and materials that you have either slept on in the past and done well with or that you have tested locally and believe would work well for you.

The difficulty with #3 is that you may not have access to all the information you need to be able to "match" one mattress to another one including the type and quality of all the layers and components, the thickness of all the layers, and all the other "quality specs" or "comfort specs" for every layer and component as well (such as the firmness/softness of every layer). While testing similar mattresses may give you a good sense of whether you tend to prefer certain types or categories of mattresses in general ... every mattress category can include many hundreds of different mattresses that can be very different from each other in terms of feel, pressure relief, and support, and you may sleep very well on one or even several and may not sleep nearly as well at all on many others that to a consumer would only seem to have minor differences in their design.

There is more about the different ways that one mattress can "match" another one in post #9 here but every difference between two mattresses can have a surprising effect that can either be cumulative or can offset each other. This means that a mattress that has say a slightly different cover or quilting material may feel very similar to another mattress that outside of the small difference in the cover is exactly the same. If the difference is more than just minor though or if there are more differences between them than just a small difference in the cover (or some other very small difference) then how they compare can be much more difficult to predict. For example one mattress may have an extra inch in the comfort layers which are otherwise the same which could make it noticeably softer and may also have a quilted cover that makes it feel firmer so these two differences may offset each other and for some people the two mattresses may feel very similar (although to others they may still feel different). In another case one mattress may have a softer or more stretchy cover and also have an extra inch in the comfort layer and while neither one of these by itself may be enough for a particular person to notice a significant difference in how well they would sleep on either mattress ... the two together may make enough of a cumulative difference that one mattress may be a good match or them and the other one wouldn't. All of this is as much an art as a science.

While you usually won't find an mattress that is "equivalent" to a mattress you have tested locally made by a different manufacturer that is available online ... in some cases the "art and science" of approximating a mattress has already been done to a large extent and an online manufacturer or retailer may have already "matched" their mattresses to a specific mattress that is available locally and included which mattress it "approximates" in their description. In other cases they may be aware that one of their mattresses is a close approximation to another mattress based on their own personal experience even if it isn't in the mattress description so if the mattress it approximates is available locally then this would give you a chance to test a specific local mattress that was a reasonably close approximation to a mattress you are considering online. This is different from trying to match a local mattress that they may not be familiar with or where all the layers and materials aren't the same as a specific mattress that they offer because once again, every difference between two mattresses can either have a cumulative effect or an offsetting effect that is very difficult for even a knowledgeable and experienced online manufacturer or retailer to predict without personal experience on both mattresses, especially with only limited or incomplete information about all the specs of a local mattress you have tested.

Because of the uncertainty involved in "mattress matching" ... unless a mattress you have tested or slept on is exactly the same in every way as a mattress that you are considering online (in effect it is the same mattress) ... it can be surprising to many people how different they can feel (especially when most people only pay attention only to the ILD numbers of the foam layers and not to all the other specs or components that can make a significant difference in how a mattress feels and performs). In this case where the risk or the level of uncertainty is higher ... the options you have after a purchase to make changes to the mattress (either by rearranging or exchanging layers, exchanging the mattress itself, or returning the mattress for a refund and starting all over again with the insights you have gained from the "wrong" choices) can be a much more important part of a purchase. Again ... this is especially true for those that are more sensitive and have a narrower "range" for a mattress that will work well or them.

If you don't have a "target" mattress that you are trying to approximate that a manufacturer or retailer is specifically familiar with or without a specific mattress that a manufacturer is using as a reference point that you can test locally ... then the only way to choose is based on a more detailed conversation with an online manufacturer or retailer who can help to guide you and choose which of the options they have available that they believe (based on their knowledge and experience and "best judgement") would have the most likely chance of success in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on the information you provide them and the "averages" of others that seem to be similar to you. Again though ... there are always people who don't fit the averages of other people and where their choice doesn't work out as well as both you and the retailer/manufacturer hoped for so in these cases as well the options you have after a purchase to either rearrange or exchange layers, exchange the mattress, or return the mattress for a refund are the only way to offset the risk that you will be in the minority that chooses a mattress that isn't as suitable for you as you and the retailer/manufacturer hoped for.

In very general terms ... while there are no "guarantees" of success with any of these methods ... I would rate the effectiveness and risk of each method in the following order ...

1. The most reliable and "accurate" method is generally your own careful and objective personal testing on a specific mattress you are considering as a purchase.

2. The next most reliable method would be local testing on a reference mattress that a manufacturer or retailer is confident is a close approximation of a mattress they offer based on their own experience and the feedback from a wide range of customers.

3. The next most reliable method would be a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced online retailer or manufacturer that includes good information about your body type, sleeping style, general preferences and history, some general information about local mattresses you have tested and done well with, and any other specific information or circumstances that could affect your choice of a mattress. The better the information you can provide them the more you can help them to help you make the best possible choice based on "averages". The "target" for these types of choices is your own specific needs and preferences rather than a particular mattress.

4. A much less reliable method would be a consumer that is trying to "match" a mattress with another mattress that is available online based on "specs" without the specific guidance of an online manufacturer or retailer that is familiar with your reference mattress. The reason this is less reliable than #3 is because in most cases what a consumer "thinks they need" is often different from "what they really need" and the guidance of a knowledgeable and experienced online retailer or manufacturer will usually be more focused on "what they really need". In addition to this ... most consumers don't have access to all the information they would need about either the mattress they are using as a reference point or the online mattress they are considering to make a meaningful comparison and even if they did (which would be rare) most consumers wouldn't have the knowledge or experience to be able to "translate" how the many seemingly small differences between two mattresses may either accumulate or offset each other and "feel" in real life. Most consumers tend to rely only on the ILD of the layers or other more basic specs which by themselves can be very misleading and inaccurate. The "target" with these types of choices is generally how closely a consumer believes one mattress will match another one which is often very inaccurate.

5. Another much less reliable method of choosing a mattress is using other peoples experiences or reviews on a mattress as an indication of how the same mattress will feel or perform for you.

6. Finally the least reliable method would be local testing in a showroom that only spends a few minutes testing for the more subjective or "showroom feel" of a mattress (or in some cases doesn't even lie down on the mattress at all) which can have lower odds of success than random chance alone.

Again ... all of these have a different probability of success and a different level of risk based on the method of choosing and on the sensitivity of the person so the "insurance" of having good options after a purchase becomes more important as the risk rises with each method or for people whose history or sensitivity indicates that they may have a narrower range of mattresses that would be suitable for them and are more likely to make a "mistake".

More to come in the next post :)

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last Edit: 10 Jul 2015 11:31 by Phoenix.

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21 Nov 2014 19:19 - 21 Nov 2014 20:05 #3 by Phoenix

Hi swesson,

I need help and guidance. I thought I was doing everything right, but so far this has been a disaster and feel like I am back at square one


Unlike you ... I think you actually did most things right. Hopefully you chose a mattress based on a more detailed conversation with Plushbeds where both of you agreed that your choice had a good chance of success based on "averages", you chose a mattress that uses good quality materials and doesn't have any weak links in the materials inside it, I would imagine that you had a list of similar finalists that you compared for "value" based on the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you, and you had the foresight to choose a mattress where you still have good options available to you after your purchase just in case your choice didn't turn out as well as you hoped. If you took all of these steps then IMO you did everything "right" in terms of the process you followed and "risk management" which is the best you can do with any online mattress purchase.

The next thing to decide is what you believe is "wrong" with your mattress and the types of changes that can "make it right" so you can decide whether to exchange a layer or whether you believe you would be in a better position by returning the mattress and starting all over again. Either way there will still be some risks involved because once again ... until you actually sleep on a mattress ... you won't know for certain whether it's the best choice for you in terms of PPP.

I was coming from a Simmons Natural Care Euro Top mattress that although doesn't satisfy most of the requirements on this site, I slept very well on. It was only five years old, but my wife and I wanted to upgrade from a Queen to a King. I can't tell you how much I want that mattress back right now.


The Simmons Natural Care at least gives you a reference point for a mattress that is a good match for you in terms of PPP and while for all the reasons that I outlined in the last reply this may not be helpful in any specific way because it's not likely that you will know all the materials and specs for the Simmons Natural Care Eurotop and it may not be possible to match them to some version of the Plushbeds mattress even if you did ... it will at least be "somewhat helpful" in assessing how the Natural Care is different from the mattress you currently have in more general ways so you can use the comparison as a "pointer" to help you decide whether making a layer exchange will be a reasonable or "less risky" option or whether you believe you would be better off choosing another mattress completely and starting all over again.

Outside of comparing your mattress to the Simmons Natural care ... you can also use your specific symptoms on your mattress as a pointer to the types of changes that would have a good chance of success.

The two main functions of a mattress are support/alignment (so that your joints and spine are in good alignment in all your sleeping positions over the course of the night) and comfort/pressure relief (so that you don't experience pressure points that can restrict circulation or cause you to toss and turn at night in an effort to avoid pressure points) and each of these tends to produce different types of "symptoms". Primary support comes from the deeper layers of a mattress and secondary support and pressure relief comes from the upper layers of a mattress. There is more about primary and secondary support and their relationship to pressure relief in post #4 here and in post #2 here that can help you in assess "how" your mattress may be different from the Natural Care (either firmer or softer comfort layers and/or firmer or softer support layers).

In addition to this ... there is also more about the different types of symptoms that people may experience on a mattress and some of the most common causes for each of them in post #2 here that can help you use your specific symptoms as a reference point and as part of the detective work that may be necessary in deciding on the type of changes (either in your current mattress or in a different mattress) that you would likely do best with.

Finally ... I would also make sure that you include a more detailed conversation with Plushbeds as part of the process so you can describe your experience and "symptoms" to them so that they can also make suggestions based on their experience with other customers that have experienced similar symptoms to yours and make some suggestions about the types of changes that may be helpful.

Outside of these three suggestions (comparing your mattress to your memory of the Natural Care, using your symptoms and sleeping experience as a pointer to the types of changes that may be helpful, and a more detailed conversation with Plushbeds) ... I would also make sure that you consider the options you still have available after your next step as well as part of the same "risk management" process so that you still have good options remaining in case your next choice also doesn't work out as well as you hoped for.

Since Pushbeds allows you to exchange the comfort layer for a softer or firmer version ... if your experience seems to indicate that a change in comfort/pressure relief or in secondary support would have a reasonable chance of success then this would seem to be the next "logical" step because it would allow you to sleep on a different firmness level comfort layer to see if this solves the issues you are having. If you do decide to do this and exchange your comfort layer for a different firmness and it still doesn't work out as well as you hoped for then you would still have the option of returning the mattress for a refund and starting again.

When originally shopping, I went to Jamestown Mattress, one of the highly regarded local manufacturers Phoenix seems to have respect for. I was determined to go with latex since that is what my Simmons Natural Care mattress had, if only in the comfort layer, but when I got to Jamestown Mattress I realized I couldn't afford their $3k asking price for their heavenly cloud line. I did enjoy laying on their Dynasty - Super Firm Euro Top - Phoenix, I would be curious about your thoughts on the construction and quality of this mattress.


While I can't speak to whether this mattress would be a good match for you in terms of PPP because as you know from the last reply only your own experience can tell you this (and see post #2 here as well) ... I'm happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials inside it and whether there are any obvious weak links in the mattress that I can see. To do this I would need to know all the information listed here because it isn't included in the online description of the mattress .

If you can find out this information and list the "quality specs" on the forum I'd be happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials inside it and help you compare the materials to the guidelines here so you can identify whether there are any weak links in the mattress and make more meaningful comparisons to other mattresses.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last Edit: 21 Nov 2014 20:05 by Phoenix.

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22 Nov 2014 05:23 #4 by swesson

Phoenix - you are a Rock Start. Thank you.

Admittedly, I never called Plush Beds, but instead I used their Online Customer Service chat quite frequently prior to making my purchase. The drawback with attempting to work with them from this point forward is that with the mattress I bought, the only other comfort option is "Medium-Firm"(29-31 ILD), I currently have the Medium (24-26 ILD) which I believe may be too firm based on the pain/soreness I am experiencing in my middle and upper back. According to Plush Beds, these are the only two options in their Eco Bliss line.

I am desperate. I haven't slept right it weeks and am physically paying for it. I don't think I have any other option than to return at this point. My new search will start today. I am going to visit Jamestown Mattress here in the Western New York area. In my previous post I mentioned the Dynasty Super Firm Euro Top which I actually liked when I was in the store, although was hell bent on buying something with latex. Here are the specs for the Dynasty:

Quilt - Top of Mattress:

Stretch Circular Knit Fabric
"Paladin" Fire Retardant Barrier
1 ½” Plush Polyurethane Foam

Comfort Layer:

Thick Polyester Pad
¾” Firm Convoluted Polyurethane Foam
2” Firm Polyurethane Foam in the Euro Top

Back Support System:
Coil Unit: Symetrics 660 Offset Technology
Coil Gauge 14 ½
Limits Motion Transfer
High Density Polyurethane Foam Encasement
Foam Encasement Coil Count:
King: 891

Now, I know I am about to compare apples to oranges, but I am also going to take a look at their Majestic Dream - Euro Top "hybrid" mattress. I noticed you have addressed this mattress in other posts and I couldn't really tell what your opinion was, other than there may be a little too much foam in the comfort layer. As a refresher, here are the specs on the Majestic Dream - Euro Top:

Quilt - Top of Mattress
"Paladin" Fire Retardant Barrier
2” Plush Polyurethane Foam
Stretch Circular Knit Fabric

Comfort - Padding Layer
Thick Polyester Pad
1” Plush Polyurethane Foam
2” 100% Natural Medium Firmness (ILD 24-26) Latex

Back Support System
Coil Unit: BodyPrint® Support System
Coil Gauge 15 & 15 ½
High Density Polyurethane Foam Encasement
Foam Encasement Coil Count:
King: 1056

They do not provide the density of any of the foams used on their website, although I am inclined to believe they are of high quality, I will still be checking with them before possibly moving forward with a purchase. I also do not know if any of their foams are Certi Pur, which I will also be checking on. I would be curious about your opinion on these two mattresses and their construction.

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22 Nov 2014 08:54 #5 by gme109

I know this advice isn't going to help you now, because you already gave away your old mattress. But for others, or for you in the future, DO NOT give away your old mattress until you're positive the new one is going to work out! I know it seems convenient to have the company that delivers your new mattress, haul the old one away, but as you know this can have painful consequences. I've seen this scenario you're going through play out with countless people, including myself. I had a 7 year old Simmons Beautyrest mattress years ago, that needed to be replaced ASAP. I picked out a mattress that I thought would be a suitable replacement, had it delivered and the old one hauled away, and that was the last semi-decent nights sleep I had, until I finally found the perfect mattress, 3 hellish months later. Same thing happened to my girlfriend, even though I cautioned her to hang on to her old mattress. As broken down as your old mattress may be, it still may provide a better nights sleep, than your next new mattress purchase.

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22 Nov 2014 10:26 - 22 Nov 2014 10:26 #6 by Phoenix

Hi gme109,

Admittedly, I never called Plush Beds, but instead I used their Online Customer Service chat quite frequently prior to making my purchase. The drawback with attempting to work with them from this point forward is that with the mattress I bought, the only other comfort option is "Medium-Firm"(29-31 ILD), I currently have the Medium (24-26 ILD) which I believe may be too firm based on the pain/soreness I am experiencing in my middle and upper back. According to Plush Beds, these are the only two options in their Eco Bliss line.


One of the most common causes or tossing and turning is comfort layers that are too firm and if their only two firmness options are the medium and the medium firm and you need something softer then a layer exchange wouldn't be useful.

Some of their other mattresses also offer a soft option so it may be worthwhile calling them to see if this would also be available with your mattress.

They do not provide the density of any of the foams used on their website, although I am inclined to believe they are of high quality, I will still be checking with them before possibly moving forward with a purchase. I also do not know if any of their foams are Certi Pur, which I will also be checking on. I would be curious about your opinion on these two mattresses and their construction.


I would need to know the densities of all the foam layers to make any meaningful comments about this mattress (or any mattress) or the quality of the materials inside it (see this article ). Their foam is all made in the US and almost all US foam manufacturers are CertiPUR certified so I would have no issues with their "safety". If you can find out the foam densities and list them on the forum I'd be happy to share my thoughts about the mattress and the quality of the materials inside it.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last Edit: 22 Nov 2014 10:26 by Phoenix.

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