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tuft and needle - new top layer foam

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25 Nov 2014 18:18 - 15 Jan 2019 19:33 #1 by benzinojamin
In a message to explain their increase in costs recently, Tuft and Needle mentions work done over the past year to create a new proprietary foam. Their message can be read here.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: tuftandneedle.com/n/pricing-update-november-2014

On the Specs page, it's listed as: "Triple-layer blended foam designed by and proprietary to Tuft & Needle."

Based on your knowledge, is it really possible for this foam to accomplish what it says it does: make it more comfortable for more people?

Thanks.
Last edit: 15 Jan 2019 19:33 by Administrator TMU. Reason: Removed Page Not Found Link (404 Error)

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25 Nov 2014 19:20 - 15 Jan 2019 19:39 #2 by Phoenix
Hi benzinojamin,

First of all I should be clear that I don't have any specific insights about what they are calling their "proprietary" foam so what follows is "educated speculation" (NOTE: see post #6 here later in this topic which has more information and confirms the materials they are now using).

The pricing message that you linked to says (or at least implies) that they have created a new foam type other than memory foam, polyfoam, or latex ... and this is doubtful.

There have been many innovations in foam over the last few years including various types of gel memory foams and there have also been innovations in polyfoam that have produced versions of polyfoam that are a higher density (typically in the 2.5 - 5 lb range) and are formulated to have different and more desirable properties than more conventional polyfoam and can approximate some of the more desirable properties of latex or memory foam (depending on the specific formulation). With their higher densities they are all durable products as well.

Some of these properties include greater point elasticity that contour to the shape of the body very well (similar to latex or memory foam) and have different response times or levels of resilience that have a faster recovery than memory foam but often slower than latex or traditional polyfoam. They also aren't typically temperature sensitive like traditional memory foam. Some of these more specialized types of polyfoam include products like Energex and Activus and Spring-tex and Avena and Futuratex and some of the Fom products along with others as well.
ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint 1: pacurethanes.net/technology/energex/| Archived Footprint 2: fomfoam.com/neu.html

All of these are what I call "high performance polyfoams" and are more costly than conventional polyfoam so they would certainly justify a price increase but they are also not as costly as many more premium foam materials such as higher quality memory foam or latex.

While they may have a specific variation of one of these foams that was formulated or "fine tuned" for them in terms of it's specific properties, response or firmness ... they certainly don't have a new type of foam technology and these are all higher density versions of polyfoam.

While specialty foams such as these (or latex or memory foam) that formulate more attractive properties into the foam would likely be suitable to a larger percentage of people than more conventional polyfoams ... like all mattress designs, any "one size fits all" design will be the "best" match for a relatively small percentage of people, a "good" match for a larger percentage, and an "OK" match for a larger percentage yet. With a manufacturer like Tuft & Needle that has a good return policy though ... then if it's not a "good enough" match then there is no cost involved with returning it.

It will be interesting to see the feedback from some of the members that try it.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 15 Jan 2019 19:39 by Administrator TMU. Reason: Updating link to https: status and Removed Page Not Found Link (404 Error)

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25 Nov 2014 20:40 #3 by benzinojamin
Thanks so much for your detailed reply Phoenix.

I'm on the verge of pulling the trigger for one of their mattresses. However, I've just found this site tonight, so I think I take a few days and browse the discussions before making the decision.

If I do end up getting one, I'll be sure to share my thoughts.

Cheers

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25 Nov 2014 21:34 - 25 Nov 2014 21:34 #4 by Phoenix
Hi benzinojamin,

I'm looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding :)

Phoenix

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Last edit: 25 Nov 2014 21:34 by Phoenix.

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26 Nov 2014 01:56 #5 by brass
That's a shame, this seems shady to some extent. I hate to form ideas based on speculation but Phoenix is right - it's either poly, latex (sbr included) or viscous (memory). I'd be curious to see a sample and find out what it really is. Also I have to say that while I thought they began with a good business model their current comparisons are pretty biased.

"Universal comfort" - that supposedly memory foam and latex don't offer. Since comfort is subjective, so is this statement and shouldn't even appear on a 'fact' check list. Universal comfort - to who? How do they quantify that?

"Fair price" - again subjective. Compared to what? Even if you took them at their word that they have developed magic mystery foam, if they're the only ones with this material then what's "fair" mean? Prices for memory foam or latex can be fair for the material also. So if plain iron is $.15/oz and gold is $400/oz does that mean gold is unfairly priced? Makes little sense.

"No gimmick features" - typically the warning sign that there's a gimmick involved. How is latex a gimmick? Or memory foam? Memory foam does what they say it does, has slow recovery - and latex is either man made, natural or a mixture. If rubber bands exist, how can they be a gimmick? They serve a purpose (unless they weren't stretchy and didn't hold a rolled up newspaper as advertised).

"Extended durability and lifespan" - high quality memory foam and latex are both durable materials, latex probably more so. I've seen couches from the 60's last into the 2000's and still had "cushion" to them and held their shape - using standard poly foam. 40 years isn't durable?

This comparison list is pure bunk if you ask me and shoots any credibility they once had right in the foot. It serves no purpose. No more informative or relevant than me posting a picture on the web saying "chocolate is 84% more yummy than vanilla" with no proof to back up a statement and figures I pulled out of thin air. It truly is disappointing. More so than raising prices right before the holidays when most everyone else is lowering theirs. I suppose it's a different approach of nothing else.

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26 Nov 2014 18:29 - 15 Jan 2019 19:44 #6 by Phoenix
Hello all,

I talked with Tuft & Needle today and confirmed that the latest iteration of their mattress uses two layers vs three in their previous design. The top layer which replaces the previous two top layers they were using is a much higher density ( about 3 lbs ) and higher performance polyfoam similar to what I was describing in post #2 earlier in this topic. The foam itself is being formulated specifically for their criteria in consultation with their foam pourer/manufacturer.

It is a more point elastic and conforming material that is more pressure relieving and softer than their previous mattress and with only a single layer (and eliminating the glue between the previous top two layers) the transition and response curve between layers would be "smoother" as well. Because of the higher density and higher compression modulus of the foam (compression modulus is the rate that a material becomes firmer as you compress it more deeply) it is also more supportive than their previous version. It also has a higher airflow and is more breathable and would be more temperature regulating than their previous comfort layers as well. It would make sense that with the properties of this higher quality and higher performance polyfoam that it would be a better match in terms of PPP for a higher percentage of people than their previous mattress design.

Post #234 here also has some additional information about their new comfort layer and the fire barrier they are using as well.

They also changed the density of the deeper layers to a polyfoam support core that is about 1.8 lbs.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 15 Jan 2019 19:44 by Administrator TMU. Reason: Updating link to https: status

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06 Dec 2014 13:35 #7 by benzinojamin
I'm just seeing the post below about confirmation and further information of the new foam design by Tuft and Needle. Thanks for digging that up!

I was on the tipping point, but with my budget and the wealth of information here, I decided to give DreamFoam's 12-in-1 model a crack.

I initially wanted to stay under $500 (for a queen) but was considering flexibility if warranted. When I found the 12-in-1, it seemed to hit all the check marks, plus they were running a 10% off Black Friday sale. At $359, shipped, plus the free pillow, I could not pass it up!

The mattress arrived today. It's all set up and waiting for night to arrive.

My wife and I will give it a go the next couple weeks and I'll check back in with our experience.

Thanks for your work here Phoenix.

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06 Dec 2014 22:44 #8 by Phoenix
Hi benzinoamin,

Thanks for letting us know what you ended up deciding and congratulations on your new mattress :)

I think you made a great choice and I'm looking forward to your feedback when you've had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix

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01 Jan 2015 11:04 #9 by DennisP
Has anyone tried both the old and the new Tuft and Needle? What are the benefits of the new material?

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01 Jan 2015 12:32 - 15 Jan 2019 19:45 #10 by Phoenix
Hi DennisP,

There is more information about the new materials in posts #2 and #6 here .

I also switched your question to the same topic as the information about the new layers as well.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 15 Jan 2019 19:45 by Administrator TMU. Reason: Updating link to https: status

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