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Tuft & Needle vs. eLuxury Supply (ExceptionalSheets) 10" Gel Memory Foam

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06 Apr 2016 17:48 - 06 Apr 2016 17:50 #1 by jerodw
Both are in my home. The Tuft (newer version, not 2014) is just a touch firm for me, perfect for my wife. The eLuxury seems perfect for me, and my wife also likes it (she's not picky). I know that both are imperfect generally—the eLuxury's 3" 3lb density gel memory foam is the weak link, and Tuft's proprietary polyfoam is not ideal either, plus it's comfort isn't ideal for me.

My question: Would you anticipate softening of the Tuft over 6 months (we've slept on it for 30 days with consistent firmness)? I could see it being perfect if it "breaks in" at all, but also don't want to wait until the trial period expires to realize it will always be too firm. The eLuxury feels great now, but if it degrades substantially over the year, it'll probably be too soft.

I've read Phoenix's thoughts on eLuxury: that they don't seem to know what's in their products, which gives a consumer a lack of confidence.

Overall, I'm looking to get maybe 5 good years out of the mattress. I would expect my financial limits to expand in five years, and this would likely become a secondary bed (or be donated or sold). If it lasts 7-10, amazing! but not heartbreaking. I paid $426 for the Queen eLuxury and $665 for the Queen T&N. I have about 65 days left on the T&N return policy, 115 on the eLuxury.

Would love to hear your thoughts based on the provided info. Thanks!
Last edit: 06 Apr 2016 17:50 by jerodw. Reason: needed more info

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06 Apr 2016 18:52 - 06 Apr 2016 18:55 #2 by Phoenix
Hi jerodw,

Both are in my home. The Tuft (newer version, not 2014) is just a touch firm for me, perfect for my wife. The eLuxury seems perfect for me, and my wife also likes it (she's not picky). I know that both are imperfect generally—the eLuxury's 3" 3lb density gel memory foam is the weak link, and Tuft's proprietary polyfoam is not ideal either, plus it's comfort isn't ideal for me.


You can see the minimum quality/durability guidelines I would generally suggest in post #4 here .

I'm not sure which eluxury mattress you have but if it contains more than "about an inch or so" of 3 lb memory foam in the comfort layers I would generally suggest avoiding it because 3 lb memory foam is a lower quality and less durable material than I would normally consider.

The Tuft & Needle uses 2.9 lb polyfoam in the comfort layers which is a high quality material and has a 1.8 lb polyfoam base layer so there are no lower quality materials or weak links in their mattress relative to more average weight ranges although I would add a slight caution for those that are in higher weight ranges (more than the lower 200's or so) because the 1.8 lb polyfoam base layer is lower density than I would normally suggest for higher weight ranges.

My question: Would you anticipate softening of the Tuft over 6 months (we've slept on it for 30 days with consistent firmness)? I could see it being perfect if it "breaks in" at all, but also don't want to wait until the trial period expires to realize it will always be too firm.


Yes it would be reasonable to expect that it will soften to some degree but this will happen more over the first 30 - 90 days or so while the mattress is breaking in and then more slowly after that so I would probably wait a little longer before returning it if the comfort level is "close". There is more about the break in and adjustment period for a new mattress in post # here.

I'm not sure whether you are using a mattress protector or a mattress pad but if you are then depending on the type and thickness it can also have some effect on the feel and firmness of the mattress (a thicker mattress pad or protector can reduce the ability of the foam layers to contour to the shape of your body and can "firm up" the mattress).

The eLuxury feels great now, but if it degrades substantially over the year, it'll probably be too soft.


It would be reasonable to expect that 3 lb memory foam will soften and break down faster than higher quality/density memory foam or other higher quality foam materials.

Overall, I'm looking to get maybe 5 good years out of the mattress. I would expect my financial limits to expand in five years, and this would likely become a secondary bed (or be donated or sold). If it lasts 7-10, amazing! but not heartbreaking. I paid $426 for the Queen eLuxury and $665 for the Queen T&N. I have about 65 days left on the T&N return policy, 115 on the eLuxury.


While there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for a specific person or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for you (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person ... if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn't close to the edge of being too soft when it is new (see post #2 here ) and you have confirmed that it meets the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the guidelines here then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with higher quality and more durable materials like latex or higher density memory foam or polyfoam (in the comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer and the chances that you would have additional "bonus time" would be higher as well.

You could certainly expect the Tuft & Needle mattress to be in this range but IMO you would be very fortunate to get 5 good years from a mattress that uses 3 lb memory foam.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 06 Apr 2016 18:55 by Phoenix.

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06 Apr 2016 20:16 - 06 Apr 2016 20:17 #3 by jerodw
Thanks, Phoenix! Appreciate your expertise and you taking the time to help.

I've also read some of your thoughts about review sites that are paid for their thoughts or making something subjective like "firmness" a major factor. Derek, the guy who runs Sleepopolis, favors the eLuxury ( www.eluxurysupply.com/products/gel-memory-foam-mattress ) over the T&N in this price range, so I emailed him and asked if he thought one would have more longevity and why. His answer:

The durability of a mattress resides almost exclusively on one factor, foam density. The gel in fact has nothing to do with it, as Tuft & Needle could have easily made a more dense polyfoam. Density, which is measured by pounds per cubic feet, is simply the amount of material that a particular foam uses.

You can think of density in the same way you would think of thread count in sheets. It's very important up to a point and then begins to be less and less of a factor. In this manner, a foam with a PCF of 7 pounds really isn't that much better than a foam with a PCF of 4 pounds.

I consider any foam within the 3.0-4.0 range to be very good. You get less than this and you're starting to cut corners and that's where you get into trouble in terms of durability. At 2.9 PCF T&N isn't far off, but the fact they think they can cut the corner here is worrisome. For me, it brings into question the larger design of their mattress and I wonder where else they are cutting corners.

All things considered I would expect both T&N and eLuxury to last a similar amount of time. Both are very good mattresses for the money. Are they the very best? No, but they are also quite low priced vs. many of the competitors.

Last edit: 06 Apr 2016 20:17 by jerodw. Reason: added info

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06 Apr 2016 20:38 - 06 Apr 2016 20:39 #4 by Phoenix
Hi jerodw,

The reply from Sleepopolis is a good example of how little they know (or care) about mattress materials and that they will accept referral fees for any mattress regardless of the quality of the materials.

The comfort layer in the Tuft and Needle is a high performance polyfoam not memory foam and polyfoam and memory foam come in completely different density ranges. A 2.9 lb polyfoam layer is a high quality and durable material while the same density in a memory foam layer is a much lower quality and less durable material.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 06 Apr 2016 20:39 by Phoenix.

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07 Apr 2016 07:47 #5 by jerodw
Thanks again. As you might imagine, I mentioned your first response to Derek as I was trying to determine why your and his answers didn't line up, and it seemed like he didn't want to get into a back and forth. Short version: he doesn't agree.

However, it only took me a few internet searches to find many people saying the same thing you did: memory foam with a 3.0 lb density is not recommended. In fact, on Tuft & Needle's site in the FAQs, it says if you're looking at memory foam mattresses, they should be at least 4.0 lb density- just like you said.

"Maybe they are trying to differentiate their mattress from similarly priced memory foam options," I thought. But another internet search later, I found support for the quality and durability of polyfoam densities above 2.5 lbs.

Finally, Sleep Like The Dead gives memory foam with densities between 3.0 and 3.9 lbs an average lifespan of 6 years, and the eLuxury mattress is at the very bottom of that range.

But you know all this. I didn't before, and I'm really glad I found objective info and did my own digging. My REM cycle thanks you.

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07 Apr 2016 09:30 - 07 Apr 2016 11:09 #6 by Phoenix
Hi jerodw,

Thanks again. As you might imagine, I mentioned your first response to Derek as I was trying to determine why your and his answers didn't line up, and it seemed like he didn't want to get into a back and forth. Short version: he doesn't agree.


It's not surprising that he wouldn't agree (in spite of the fact that this contradicts many years of information and evidence that is well known by the more knowledgeable parts of the industry) because this would call into question the credibility of his recommendations and the mattresses he is earning referral fees from. These types of sites are really just marketing arms of the mattresses that they list on their site and they generally accept any mattress where there are referral fees available regardless of the quality of the materials. They are really more "revenue sites" than anything else.

To give them some credit they are great at SEO (search engine optimization) and search rankings and have learned to take advantage of the new "breed" of simplified choice mattresses for their own benefit. Most manufacturers that make "simplified choice" mattresses think of them as somewhat of a "necessary evil" or "poison pill".

As an example ... their "revised" comments about Tuft & Needle since they eliminated their referral fees are very telling about the main motivations behind their site.

Out of 14 mattresses currently "reviewed" on the Sleepopolis site ... 2 are rated as 4.8, 3 are rated as 4.7, 5 are rated as 4.6, 1 is rated as 4.5, 1 is rated as 4.4, and then 1 (Tuft & Needle) is rated at 4.1 and 1 (Casper) is rated as 4.0 (probably because they earn less or no referral fees from the last two) ... all based on one person's subjective considerations and having little to nothing to do with the quality and durability of the materials or someone else's experience on the same mattress.

These types of ratings really have no meaning and I question whether the real reason that all their "ratings" are 4 point something are more to make sure that the mattresses they "review" are close enough" to each other that they don't lose the chance to earn commissions from any one of them or lose their affiliate status by "rating" some of them lower.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 07 Apr 2016 11:09 by Phoenix.

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07 Apr 2016 15:26 - 07 Apr 2016 15:28 #7 by MattressToGo
It's troubling that so much of what is out there passes for qualified educated advice. As Phoenix mentioned, so many of these sites are simply revenue, not review sites. I explain a bit about it here .

How can so many products of differing levels of quality receive such high ratings? Well, it's an opinion, and in the case you mentioned, driven by reasons other than objective analysis. Comments of a 3# visco-elastic foam being decent or not much difference between a 4#-7# visco-elastic foam would be hard sells with quality foam manufacturers or those who have produced mattresses using these different foams through the years. And those are the opinions that matter in the industry, or at least the ones that should matter.

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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Last edit: 07 Apr 2016 15:28 by MattressToGo. Reason: spelling

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08 Apr 2016 13:10 #8 by jerodw
Thanks guys! I'm not going to post more of my conversation with Derek, as I wasn't trying to pull the Palin "GOTCHA" on him. What I can say is that most of his responses were speculative and opinion-based, while all of the responses here have been informational and quantitative as they pertain to mattresses. And I do think it's impossible to be objective when you're getting paid.

I also found it odd that Casper and Tuft are the only mattresses to rank below 4.4 on Sleepopolis, and the rest are between 4.4 and 4.8. Sure enough, Tuft stopped offering a discount, so he's likely getting no referral cash. How could so many people enjoy their Tuft and Casper mattresses so much if they're really that much worse than every other online offering? He would argue the others are all different mixes of ratings (materials, edge support, bounce, etc.) and the aggregates end up being similar.

There's one thing that actually made me angry: he rated the edge support of the eLuxury as MORE supportive than the Tuft, and with both in my home, I can ABSOLUTELY say that is not the case. It's not even close—Tuft is far more supportive on the edge. So not only are his opinions not based on anything but his feelings, they're wrong—or worse, they're purchased.

I'm keeping the T&N. I realized that there may be an element of me being extremely inflexible and in the worst shape of my life, and maybe I shouldn't point to a "barely too firm" mattress as the issue.

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08 Apr 2016 13:59 #9 by Phoenix
Hi jerodw,

Thanks for your comments.

I certainly don't wish to "put you in the middle" but your comments make a great deal of sense :)

I'm keeping the T&N. I realized that there may be an element of me being extremely inflexible and in the worst shape of my life, and maybe I shouldn't point to a "barely too firm" mattress as the issue.


This makes sense as well although you of course also have the option of returning the mattress if it really isn't a "good enough" match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP and trying another mattress with a good return policy.

If your longer term experience also indicates that it's just a little too firm but this is just more of a preference and you aren't experiencing any actual "symptoms" when you sleep on the mattress then if it didn't soften "enough" for you over the course of the first few months then you would also have the option of adding a relatively thin and softer mattress pad or topper if you wanted a slightly softer "feel" or some additional softness and pressure relief on the mattress.

It's would certainly be a higher quality and more durable mattress than the eluxury.

Phoenix

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11 May 2018 11:09 #10 by peterp
Oh yah that is weird, when you said the rankings are below 4.4. I actually went there my self to check it out. His reviews are good but probably money talks ha! I compared with few other guys like this one here https://www.topmattress.com/tuft-and-needle-bed-review/ but still, it's hard to know who's actually doing a proper review since they all are getting paid. I guess the best option forms.

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