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Latex over pocket coil mattress question 02 Jun 2012 16:57 #1

I am in the market for a king sized hybrid mattress (latex over pocket coil) w/minimal poly foam. Not much in my area but I did travel to a place that had a Green Sleep Saluna Mattress. It has a 3 " latex topper on a firmish pocket spring mattress. It was a great feeling bed. Unfortunately the price was way out of my range. However, I am toying with the idea of creating a bed that is close to that feel. A local company Jamestown mattress will make me a custom mattress. I am toying with the idea of quoting me it 2 ways. One with the latex top / pocket coil and one with just a barebones pocket coil mattress and I purchase the top separately. Will see which way is more cost effective.

I am, however, having a hard time finding the specs on the Green Sleep Saluna bed. If anyone knows where I could find these or how to find them, that would be great. One web site did mention the 3" topper was all natural dunlop and judging by the feel of the topper I would say it was in the soft to medium range though I would bet soft. The pocket springs were pretty firm and resulted in a medium firm feel overall. Could not locate specs on the spring system either.

Anyone have any other options for me? Maybe a competitor that is less expensive? Latex over pocket coil.

Thanks!

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Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 02 Jun 2012 17:58 #2

Hi zen4life,

The Green Sleep is a beautiful mattress and uses very high quality materials but as you mention, with the mattress and the recommended S200 foundation, you are looking at upwards of $5000 in a King. The best descriptions of the mattress (although there are no specific specs) are on their own website here and at one of their Canadian retailers here and as you can see the ingredients are great ... but the price is not as great.

If I was in your shoes I would have Jamestown build you the exact mattress you wanted including the latex rather than a mattress designed to add a topper. I'm not sure they build a finished mattress with just the pocket coils and no polyfoam to add the topper and if it was me I wouldn't want to add and pay for extra polyfoam if I didn't have to (although you could certainly ask them). I do think highly of the value of the mattresses there though.

The other option I would strongly consider is to talk with one of our members, Dan at www.baybed.com/ , who just happens to specialize in modular mattresses that use zoned pocket coils and latex and where the components can be individually chosen and even exchanged. :)

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 03 Jun 2012 19:13 #3

Thanks Phoenix,

I took your advice and talked to Jamestown. They have a mattress called the Majestic Dream that is close to what I am looking for minus ALL the Poly Foam. Link to that bed :

www.jamestownmattress.com/best/best_03a.html

We actually replaced the poly foam which is on the top layer with 2" of talalay latex. Ending up from top to bottom with this :

The nice quality cotton fabric cover from the Majestic mattress but with a zipper (bonus).
I am going to have them replace the cotton batting in the cover with joma wool.
2" Natural Talalay Latex (Soft) ILD 16-19
2" Natural Dunlop Latex (Med-Firm) ILD 24-27
1/4" Nova Pad
Some non-poly padding to separate coil from latex (he needs to ask about that)
720 Luraflex 14 Gauge Pocket Coil System

Its not 100% organic but thats ok, the cotton fabric (in cover and around springs) is not and the nova pad and whatever other pad they use may not be. He was not sure where the latex is made only that they get it from Sri Lanka and the cores and comfort layers are made in Connecticut. Perhaps thats enough infor for you to know?

This mattress custom made for me is approximately $2300

Now, compared to the Green Sleep which has :

Separate velour topper w/wool lining includes 3" soft dunlop (best guess based on some info I found ILD 20-24)
Really high-end pocket coil system w/organic cotton wrapped coils. In fact, everything in it is organic.

That mattress alone is $3500.

Seems like a no brainer to me. Do you think by replacing the poly with the latex, the end result will feel similar. He seemed to think so and I would think it would feel at least as good. What do you think?

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Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 03 Jun 2012 22:35 #4

Hi zen4life,

Your potential design sounds like it will certainly do the job at a much better value ... and of course there is always the satisfaction of knowing that a mattress was custom built just for you.

My guess as to the firmness of the Green Sleep would be similar but being Dunlop it would probably be a little firmer (more along the lines of mid 20's).

Seems like a no brainer to me. Do you think by replacing the poly with the latex, the end result will feel similar. He seemed to think so and I would think it would feel at least as good. What do you think?


While they would be in the best position to know the similarity of the poly being replaced with the latex (because they would know the complete specs of the poly that is being replaced) ... I would think that with the soft Talalay it would be similar yes (given that latex will feel different than lower density polyfoam even in a similar ILD). While "feel" is individual and subjective ... by my personal preferences your custom version would feel better than the "standard" version and uses higher quality materials.

Its not 100% organic but thats ok, the cotton fabric (in cover and around springs) is not and the nova pad and whatever other pad they use may not be. He was not sure where the latex is made only that they get it from Sri Lanka and the cores and comfort layers are made in Connecticut. Perhaps thats enough infor for you to know?


There are two main suppliers of Dunlop latex from Sri Lanka which are Latex Green and Arpico and both make good quality Dunlop latex. The Talalay made in Connecticut would be from Latex International which is one of the two main producers of high quality Talalay latex so overall the materials look good.

While of course this isn't an exact duplicate of Green Sleep ... the value is certainly better and I think you have made a very good choice. To me this is another "plus" for local manufacturing that can do a custom build when the "regular" models they make aren't quite the way you want them :)

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 03 Jun 2012 23:17 #5

I agree, it seems like a great value. The only other option that is less expensive carries with it lots of risk. For example, Pure Rest makes an Organic Innerspring mattress that is very reasonably priced :

www.purerest.com/Mattresses/Apollo-Mattresses/King-Apollo-Mattress

And that mattress is sold at several web sites for under 1600 dollars. Adding a couple toppers from a place like FoamByMail for maybe 500 dollars total. Of course, there is a huge risk of what the end result feel would be like. Also, no way to tell what the quality of the coil system is. What do you think?

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Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 04 Jun 2012 01:50 #6

Hi zen4life,

While the PureRest is certainly less ... it has no latex in it and with just the cotton and wool would be very firm ... and would get firmer as the cotton and wool compressed.

Even their innerspring/latex hybrid ... while it is two sided (which adds to value) ... only has 2" of Dunlop latex on each side which would also be very firm.

One of our members also sells a similar firm one sided innerspring with wool and cotton over the springs and a 2" Dunlop comfort layer which is here .

I would never buy latex ... or pretty much anything else either ... from Foambymail (FBM). More about that in post #2 here (and the posts it links to). For me ... getting what I want and expect is too important in a mattress to play around with "luck of the draw" materials. They are one of those cases where "cheap" can be very expensive. As you mentioned ... they would be way too big a risk for me to consider as a reasonable option.

I would personally either work with a local manufacturer like you are or talk with Bay Bed to see what their equivalent modular mattress would be.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 04 Jun 2012 11:32 #7

I got this from a member of another forum and wondered what you might think of it? It seems the specs told to me are not correct for the Jamestown Bed :

I couldn't find specs on the GreenSleep mattress, either -- I think you'll need to call the manufacturer to get them. (Can't fathom why they don't just publish the specs. For something that expensive, I'd want to know every single detail.)

A custom mattress made by Jamestown might be fine, but be aware that the pocket coils they use are a lightweight gauge: the Leggett & Platt Body Print system uses 15 and 15.5 gauge steel for the pocket coils. Jamestown Mattress uses the second system on this L&P page: www.lpbodyprint.com/tri-zone.asp. (The Jamestown website lists their Majestic Dream as having 14 gauge coils, but that is incorrect. They know it is incorrect -- I had an email exchange with them months ago -- but they haven't fixed the site yet and probably haven't fixed the in-store flyers.)

I'm not trying to discourage you from getting a custom mattress. They might build you something wonderful. I just want you to be aware that the GreenSleep -- with the heavier-gauge steel (not sure what height the coils are) -- will feel different from the Majestic Dream, which has a 6" pocket coil base of light-gauge steel.

If you like the feel of Jamestown's mattress, you might be all set. Hope so.

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Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 04 Jun 2012 15:29 #8

Hi zen4life,

Before I developed this site I was the most frequent poster at "whatsthebest-mattress" forum and came to know that there are some good people there who are knowledgeable and give good advice and many who are not so knowledgeable and give questionable advice. The quality of the advice there can be very "mixed" to say the least. There are many there who mistake opinions for fact. In this case ... it comes from someone who has had some difficult issues with an ongoing mattress saga (which are outlined in many posts there and in this forum as well) and has made many mistakes of judgement along the way that came from a lack of understanding about how mattresses are constructed and the function of various specs, layers, and components.

Jamestown of course is the best source of finding out the specs of their own mattresses and as I have mentioned ... personal testing is the way to find out about the suitability of a mattress for each person. Innersprings come in many different gauges and each different design, gauge, coil count, and other innerspring specs are just one piece of the puzzle in an overall mattress design. As a single example ... the insulator plays a significant role in the function of an innerspring even though this can easily be seen as an "insignificant" layer.

I personally think highly of the two "Jims" (father and son) who own Jamestown mattress and I believe they use good quality and value materials in the price ranges of their mattresses.

The support layers are certainly an important part of the puzzle but they are not usually the "weak link" of a mattress. In this case ... I believe the "negative" or "cautionary tone" of this post is more about the disappointment of this particular member with her many "less than good" choices along the way (including the purchase of several toppers and the purchase of a mattress from Jamestown which she then quickly decided to take apart and try to "rebuild") and not so much about the suitability of your choices.

Her comments about the difference between Green Sleep and the custom mattress are of course valid (they are not the same and will feel different as you already know from your personal testing) and her comments about the "specs" of a particular mattress (the listed specs vs the specs listed on the website) may also be true (and Jamestown would confirm this) but the spec difference is part of an overall design that you have tested as "working" for you and not so much about "better or worse". Lower gauge coils will be firmer and higher gauge coils will be softer. Both have a place ... along with many other pieces of the puzzle ... in making a quality mattress that works for a particular individual.

Unfortunately, there are many people (and online mattress review sites that talk about "too hard" or "too soft" or "this mattress gave me a back ache" are filled with them) who believe that their personal choices about the suitability of a mattress for their needs and preferences also reflects on the quality of the mattress or components. Something that "doesn't work" for one can be "perfect" for another and is not so much about the mattress but about the wisdom of their choices.

Phoenix
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Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 04 Jun 2012 17:23 #9

Yes, I agree with your comments and I actually talked to a Jim today from the Jamestown plant. Perhaps it was either the father or the son? Great guy. He did confirm that spring system in that bed was the L&P 3 zone 15/15.5 system.

However, he mentioned another spring system option they have that is relatively new. It uses a 7 zone system called Combi-Zone from L&P. Zones are created by alternating sections of 13.75-gauge Bolsa™ coils and 17-gauge Quantum™ coils. They are also 8" as opposed to 6". Would have little to no affect on the cost to me.

I also emailed green sleep. The 3" topper is Dunlop. I asked for the ILD but he gave me back 65 which must be the density. Do you know what that converts to for an ILD? Also, they use 13 gauge 6 turn coils. 768 coils in a queen.

The Jamestown Majestic Dream bed did "work" for me. I would rank it high just behind the Green Mile bed. My hesitation was only that 15/15.5 gauge steel is pretty thin steel and tends to feel soft. Knowing the Green Mile is 13, I think the newer spring system might work better for me since I do prefer firm. Granted I am risking the overall feel of the bed by using a different spring system.

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Re: Latex over pocket coil mattress question 04 Jun 2012 21:36 #10

Hi zen4life,

Innersprings can be very "technical" and there are many things that affect how they perform. Things like coil count, number of turns, coil density, coil geometry, types of helicals (if any which are not used in pocket coils), methods of securing the coils, coil height, foam borders or "tubs" and many other factors all lead to the end result which can be measured by two questions which are "how well does this mattress relieve pressure?" and "how well does this mattress keep me in alignment in all my sleeping positions?". Coil counting or using the gauge of coils alone as a measure of the durability or performance of a mattress can be very misleading. They are a piece of the puzzle but there are many others as well.

In addition to the types and specs of the coils themselves ... the layers in between the coils and you will also have a big effect on the suitability and performance (and firmness and durability) of any particular coil unit and the mattress itself. To say for example that 13 gauge coils creates a more durable mattress than 15 gauge coils is not necessarily accurate unless all the other factors also support this. Even the amount of "working steel" in a mattress (or the weight of the innerspring) ... while more accurate perhaps than other measures or specs .... does not tell the whole story and these are specs that aren't generally provided by the manufacturer. As a single example ... coils that are joined by helicals are not as independent as pocket coils but they will also spread pressure between more coils and so can be more durable ... at the cost of motion separation and the ability to conform as well to different body shapes. This would also be affected by the type and amount of materials over the coils. The equivalent in foam would be "point elasticity" which is the ability of small areas to compress without affecting the areas next to them.

There is more about the different types of innersprings in this article .

Both Quantum coils and Bolsa coils are pocket coils which act independently and are used in different combinations to help create the desired performance characteristics of a mattress within the budget restrictions of the design and target price. The Combi-zone uses these two types of coils together to create different response zones in different areas of the mattress. The heavier parts use the firmer coils while the lighter parts use the softer coils to give more "gentle response" in these areas. As you can see as well from the Combi-zone description ... coil height is more of a money saving measure which can lead to the use of less (more expensive) foams to create similar mattress heights which consumers "translate" into higher quality. I also question the value of a seven zoned system which IMO is more about marketing than actual benefit.

Basing a decision on a mattress based on coil specs alone would be somewhat like saying that larger wheels on a car have less rolling resistance and so the car can go faster without taking the engine, type of rubber, gear ratios, car weight, or many other factors into account.

None of this is to say either that the Green Sleep is not a high quality mattress (which of course it is). They use a high quality innerspring which is very strong, add 3" Dunlop latex (65 is a density measure based on kg/cu. meter which is in the soft range of Dunlop and would typically be a range in the low 20's or even high teens but would also be firmer than the equivalent ILD talalay because it gets firmer faster as you compress it more) and add thick layers of organic wool and organic cotton both of which are expensive materials in a mattress. The quality is undeniable .... but the "value" is open to question. There are many other manufacturers that use similar materials that are in lower price ranges but of course each person's personal value equation is also subjective and depends on the many parts of a mattress purchase that are most important to each person.

The Jamestown Majestic Dream bed did "work" for me. I would rank it high just behind the Green Mile bed. My hesitation was only that 15/15.5 gauge steel is pretty thin steel and tends to feel soft. Knowing the Green Mile is 13, I think the newer spring system might work better for me since I do prefer firm. Granted I am risking the overall feel of the bed by using a different spring system.


If this mattress "worked" for you then I'm not sure of the value of changing it. Did it actually "feel" too soft (in the sense that you were out of alignment) or is it more a matter of thinking that a combination of 13.75 gauge with 17 gauge would be "better" (regardless of what was used over the coils to create the actual firmness of the mattress rather than just the coils themselves).

These are the types of things that I would discuss with the manufacturer but personal experience ... with the guidance of the manufacturer themselves ... would always "trump" theory. As I mentioned ... the upper layers are usually the "weak link" of a mattress. Thinner upper layers will bring the lower layers (such as an innerspring) more into play and may change what works best and is most durable (such as in mattresses where the coils themselves are a big part of pressure relief") but it is the balance and interaction between all the layers that results in the end product and creates the overall durability of the mattress.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.
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