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Advice needed for firm mattress 08 Dec 2012 13:58 #1

Hi Phoenix - I recently purchased a king size latex PureBliss Pamper mattress and a 2" natural topper. We have been sleeping on the mattress for about a five weeks now. The mattress we had before was one of the "S" brands and was very uncomfortable.

I prefer a firm mattress and have been enjoying this model very much. In the last week or so I find myself wanting to sleep on my side now instead of laying on my back as much as I used to and I would like a thicker comfort layer.

When we first put the topper on the mattress, I put the mattress protector over the topper, but i could not feel the topper at all under the protector. So, I now have the topper under the fittest sheet so I can feel the softness.

I understand that I need to make sure my hips don't sink down to far in the mattress, so I am wondering if I should get a 3" talalay topper in the 32 ild range. Would a topper of this ild help keep my hips from sinking but give me a more cushiony comfort layer? I have a swayed back and need a little more support in this area.

Thanks for your help.

Ginger

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Re: Advice needed for firm mattress 08 Dec 2012 21:56 #2

Hi Ginger,

Don't forget that support comes mostly from the deeper layers in your mattress rather than the top layers (and the Pamper has a very firm support layer).

I'm not sure which version of the Pamper you have. The old one has 1" of softer 19 ILD Talalay in the comfort layer and the new one has 2" of Active Fusion fast response Talalay (which would be close to the same softness).

If your topper is from PLB ... then it would be very soft (probably in the 14 - 15 ILD range) which means that you could be "going through" this and the 1" layer below it and feeling the firmness of the support layers. If you were to use the same thickness but a firmer topper it may be enough to stop you from going through as much but of course the surface feel would also be firmer or you may need a little extra thickness (side sleepers are typically in the 3" to 4" comfort layer range) but this would depend on body type and the other layers in the mattress). Some people who were lighter would even be OK with the 3" you have in the comfort layers (1' comfort layer if you have the old Pamper and the 2" topper).

Again your body type and weight will be a big factor in how firm a foam feels for you but for most people a 32 ILD layer would be firmer than they would prefer (and it most likely would be much less "cushiony" than the topper you have. It would be a significant change and quite an adjustment from your current topper (again assuming it's a PLB topper)

A more "average" topper would be in the 19 - 24 range with 28 - 32 being firmer for those who preferred a firmer comfort layer (vs better support) or who were heavier.

So the best choice would depend most of all on your weight and on how far away from your ideal you are with your current setup when you are sleeping on your side but given your feedback I would think that 32 ILD would be on the firm side for you and if I was to use a thicker layer I would use 3" in the range of 19 - 24. One other option you have ... depending on how much more thickness/softness you needed ... would be to add an extra inch of say 19 - 24 ILD latex with its own cover (which is important with latex) under your current topper or using a new 3" cover you could enclose both layers in the same cover. This may be less expensive than a whole new topper.

There are some sources in post #4 here for both toppers and covers.

So it really depends though on how close your current layering is to matching your ideal. If you need "just a touch" or "just a little" more thickness/softness than what you have then the extra inch would probably be fine (either as a new 3" topper or an extra inch) but I would make it closer to the layers you already have or probably no more than 24 ILD (again depending on your weight).

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Re: Advice needed for firm mattress 01 Jan 2013 16:33 #3

Happy New Year!!

I am still thinking about adding another layer of latex to my purebliss pamper mattress and I want to give you more information, hoping that I make the best inch and ild needed for better comfort, but also keeping alignment.
I weigh 158 lbs, I am 5'6". My husband weighs 188 lbs and is 6'2". He is not having any issues. We have the older pamper model with 1 inch 19 ild on top
and a 2" natural topper. No active fusion.. We bought this mattress in November. In our area we had very few latex options, so we had to travel further away to get this mattress. We found the best price in Greensboro. We drove there and picked it up ourselves. So it would be very difficult to try and change this mattress, even if this were an option. I like this mattress very much, but I feel that I maybe sinking down too far and feeling to much of the firmness.
When I get up in the morning about 4-5 inches down from my shoulders, I feel like this part of my back has been laying on a very hard surface and I feel discomfort. Also, when I lay on my side, I feel discomfort in my hips.
What do you suggest I add for better comfort?

Thank you so much.


Ginger

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Re: Advice needed for firm mattress 01 Jan 2013 18:47 #4

Hi Ginger,

I'm guessing that the topper you have is the PLB version?

If this is the case it is very soft and as you mentioned is probably allowing you to "go through" the top 3" with your hips when youare on your side and feel more of the very firm layer below than you are comfortable with.

I'm also assuming you want to keep the current topper and add to it rather than replace it completely?

You may be facing a couple of issues here as well.

The pressure issue with your hips when you are lying on your side would probably be because you are "going through" the very soft top 3" and feeling too much of the firmer latex underneath. This seems like a fairly straightforward matter of adding some additional latex.

The discomfort 3-4" below your shoulders though may be a pillow issue rather than an issue of the comfort layer thickness/softness. It may be that your pillow is holding up your head too high (more suitable for side sleeping) when you are lying on your back (I'm assuming that you are a combination side/back sleeper?) which can create a kind of "hunched" position and stress the upper back muscles. It doesn't sound to me like there is an actual pressure issue with your shoulders or your arms going numb or falling asleep when you are on your side like there is with your hips. Are you prone to discomfort or tension in this area sometimes or is this a brand new issue with no "history" behind it.

If you can confirm that ...

1. You want to keep your current topper and add to it rather than replace it
2. That the topper is the PLB natural topper
3. That you are a back/side sleeper
4. That there doesn't seem to be any pressure issues on the shoulders themselves on your side
5. The thickness and/or type of pillow you have
6. Any history you may have with posture issues or discomfort issues in the same area of your back
7. The type of protector or any mattress pad you have on the mattress

Then it would be helpful to make a more meaningful suggestion.

With back issues in particular (as opposed to the pressure issue on your hips which is simpler) it can sometimes be quite difficult to identify the cause of pain or discomfort (as it relates to your sleeping system) because an issue in one area can sometimes produce symptoms in another area.

Phoenix
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Re: Advice needed for firm mattress 01 Jan 2013 20:47 #5

1. Yes I would like to keep my current 2" inch topper and add to it.
2. Yes the topper is the 2" purebliss latex natural topper. No active fusion.
3. Yes I am a back/side sleeper,
4. Unsure of this answer. Maybe the discomfort I feel in my back could actually be coming from laying on my side and the discomfort is coming from my shoulders instead of my back from pressure issues?
5. We have two latex pillows (king size) from pure latex bliss for side sleepers. My pillow caused head/neck discomfort, so I switched back to using a contour 100% urethane foam pillow, purchased from Belk that I had before we bought the new mattress and it seems to be better for me. Made by Carpenter Co. Elkhart, IN
6. No posture issues. I do have a sway in my lower back. I read somewhere (maybe this site) you should stand against a wall measure the distance of your lower back from the wall. My distance was 2".
7. The mattress pad is made by Beauty Rest. Looks similar to www.wayfair.com/Simmons-100%25-Pima-Cotton-Stripe-Five-Zone-Mattress-Pad-H43CN-SIN1753.html . Also, I currently have the 2" topper on top of the mattress pad because when I originally put the topper on top of the mattress and then put the mattress pad over both, I was unable to feel the mattress pad at all.

Thank you.
Ginger

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Re: Advice needed for firm mattress 02 Jan 2013 00:52 #6

Hi Ginger,

OK ... that helps.

4. Unsure of this answer. Maybe the discomfort I feel in my back could actually be coming from laying on my side and the discomfort is coming from my shoulders instead of my back from pressure issues?


This is a possibility because you could be twisting away from pressure issues on your side which could cause some back discomfort.

5. We have two latex pillows (king size) from pure latex bliss for side sleepers. My pillow caused head/neck discomfort, so I switched back to using a contour 100% urethane foam pillow, purchased from Belk that I had before we bought the new mattress and it seems to be better for me. Made by Carpenter Co. Elkhart, IN


Is this the one ? I would probably have someone look at your sleeping posture to see if your head and neck seemed to be in good alignment when you are on your back and on your side. It could still be a little too thick for your back but I will leave this to your judgement. How long has it been since you switched and how much difference did it make with your back? Is it still improving?

6. No posture issues. I do have a sway in my lower back. I read somewhere (maybe this site) you should stand against a wall measure the distance of your lower back from the wall. My distance was 2".


That's in a fairly "average" range.

7. The mattress pad is made by Beauty Rest. Looks similar to www.wayfair.com/Simmons-100%25-Pima-Cott...d-H43CN-SIN1753.html . Also, I currently have the 2" topper on top of the mattress pad because when I originally put the topper on top of the mattress and then put the mattress pad over both, I was unable to feel the mattress pad at all.


I'm glad I asked about a mattress pad/protector. This could be reducing the contouring ability of the latex and could be contributing to the firmness you are feeling or reducing the amount your shoulders in particular can sink in. The first thing I would do is remove this as a variable and sleep on the mattress for a few nights with this removed and just the topper on the mattress to see what difference this makes. I would base the choice of topper on how the mattress feels without the thicker mattress pad. Mattress pads are much easier to change than a topper and you may need a thinner stretchier protector without the thicker padding in it.

It will be interesting to see if this makes things worse or better and this will provide some insights into what may be happening.

Either way though ... it needs to be removed for a bit so you can test the mattress/topper combination by itself.

Phoenix
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Re: Advice needed for firm mattress 09 Feb 2013 13:48 #7

I just want to report back and let you know that I removed the mattress pad on my bed and it did help. I was amazed that a soft mattress pad could make a mattress feel firm! I am still feeling that the mattress is a little too firm. I feel in my upper back like I've slept on the floor. The left side of my back when I get up feels stiff like it may be been strained, like it has had no support.

I have looked around online for some toppers. I emailed this company. www.myorganicsleep.com/collections/natural-latex-toppers-mattress-pads/products/02in-latex-mattress-topper . I gave him my age, 51, weight, 158 lbs, I am 5'6". My husband weighs 188 lbs and is 6'2". Our sleeping positions, back and side. Mattress - King size Purebliss Pamper model. Not the latest model but the one prior. All latex no fast or slow response in the mattress. we also have a natural two inch 14 ild topper. He stated I should try the 2" firm topper. I can try it for 30 days, if I don't like it I can send it back for a 100% full refund.

Do you know anything about organic sleep?

Thank you.

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Re: Advice needed for firm mattress 09 Feb 2013 18:52 #8

Hi ginger,

I just want to report back and let you know that I removed the mattress pad on my bed and it did help. I was amazed that a soft mattress pad could make a mattress feel firm! I am still feeling that the mattress is a little too firm. I feel in my upper back like I've slept on the floor. The left side of my back when I get up feels stiff like it may be been strained, like it has had no support.


There are different "versions" of softness/firmness including surface softness/firmness or "hand feel", pressure relieving softness/firmness, and support softness/firmness. Each of these is different and different people are more sensitive to one or the other. The mattress pad you had provides more 'surface softness" but it also interferes with "pressure relief" softness ... especially with very soft latex. Your mattress certainly has good support (a 6" layer of 40 ILD latex which is a very firm and supportive material) but the key is in the comfort layer thickness and softness. What you are looking for is the best "alignment" which means a combination of "allowing" your shoulders to sink in enough to the upper layers and at the same time "stopping" your heavier pelvis from sinking down too deeply.

Seeing that the pain is on the left side of your upper body ... this could be a result of twisting or if you sleep on the side that has the pain that you could be "scrunching" your shoulders a little bit when you sleep on your side because of the combination of the softness of your current topper (which is very soft) and the thickness of your comfort layer which may be allowing you to go through the top layers a little too much and "hitting" the firmer layer below it a little too quickly. A little extra thickness of softer latex or a slightly thicker layer of a little firmer latex (but still softer than the 40 ILD base layer you have) would seem to be "in the range".

Of course without actually testing a specific topper/mattress combination you are really making an educated guess whether any particular topper would work ... but at least it seems to be "in the area" of what you may need.

www.myorganicsleep.com/ is the same as www.organictextiles.com/ and myorganictextiles.com/index.html and possibly welllivingshop.com/index.php/ as well

They also sell on Amazon www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html?ie=UTF8&marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&me=A3AOOF1AY54IGR

Based on the description here ... I would guess that their latex comes either from either Turkey or from India (most likely).

I have only talked with them very briefly but they appear to sell good quality products with good value. Other than this I don't have any detailed information about them or the people behind them other than they are an online only company based in Santa Ana, CA.

I would also be aware that their return policy excludes shipping both ways and has a 15% restocking fee as well ( see here because it isn't listed on their myorganicsleep site).

ADDED: While they seem to be 100% natural Dunlop rubber, there are a few things that would make me a little cautious or at least I would want to clarify about their descriptions. Their density numbers (they range from 4.9 lbs/ft3 to 6.5 lbs/ft3) are higher than a typical density range for Dunlop and don't appear to match the typical ILD numbers for their density either. The density numbers also don't appear to match their shipping weights on Amazon (which are significantly less than they should be) but it's quite likely that the shipping weights are incorrect. Their prices are also a little different between each of their sites and Amazon. myorganictextiles.com/ appears to be the lowest cost for their 2" and 3" toppers while the price for the 6" core appears to be less on Amazon.

I would also make sure that any raw latex topper has a good quality cover (not just sheets or a mattress protector) to prevent premature aging and degradation.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.
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