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12 Mar 2018 12:42 #11 by Phoenix

You are welcome. :)

I am looking forward to any updates you might have after your visit.

Phoenix.


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02 Apr 2018 20:16 - 02 Apr 2018 20:21 #12 by sleepydeepy

AnnaP wrote: Hi Phoenix,
Quick question...I see that DreamFoam Bedding are no longer a recommended member of your site. I was seriously considering their 13" Ultimate Dreams Memory Foam mattress. Can I ask if you no longer feel they use high quality materials in their memory foam mattresses?


Hi Phoenix,

First, I am so grateful that you made this site and continue to maintain it. I found you years ago and based on your recommendation at the time purchased a Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams Latex mattress, which my wife and I agreed was the most comfortable mattress we ever slept on. The mattress is getting a bit older now (4 years) and is noticeably sagging with two "valleys" or "trenches" where my wife and I sleep. I had assumed it was just past its useful life and it was time to buy another Dreamfoam. However, I see that now Chuck and Dreamfoam/Brooklyn Bedding is no longer a TMU member, per the comment above. I was considering Nest (I believe Chuck is part owner?) as well as SleepEZ and/or Arizona (or other companies on your list), but I thought I might come here for some advice before purchasing.

First some details:

Sleeper 1: 5'11", 205lbs, side to stomach sleeper, does not like overly firm mattresses, has some sciatica in lower back / legs due to spinal injury
Sleeper 2: 5'6", 135lbs, side to back sleeper, does not like overly firm mattresses

The last mattress we bought was Ultimate Dreams Latex $599 from Chuck. We would like to spend a similar amount if possible, while hopefully avoiding the sagging within 3-4 years (or is that normal?).

Can you advise?

Many thanks!

Last Edit: 02 Apr 2018 20:21 by sleepydeepy.

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03 Apr 2018 21:54 - 03 Apr 2018 21:55 #13 by Phoenix

Hi sleepydeepy.

Welcome to our forum! :)

I found you years ago and based on your recommendation at the time purchased a Dreamfoam Ultimate Dreams Latex mattress, which my wife and I agreed was the most comfortable mattress we ever slept on. The mattress is getting a bit older now (4 years) and is noticeably sagging with two "valleys" or "trenches" where my wife and I sleep. I had assumed it was just past its useful life and it was time to buy another Dreamfoam.


Whenever someone comments about a mattress having impressions or sagging, I always suggest a “ground up” assessment and checking your support system under the mattress since this can also be a common cause for sagging in a mattress (you can check this by putting the mattress on the floor for a few nights).

I was trying to find the “recommendation” we made on which you based your purchase at the time and I noticed that you registered on TMU just yesterday (perhaps you had a different account in 2014), in any case, back then the Ultimate Dreams Latex used to have 1.5” of quilted super soft hyperflex foam, and 3” of Talalay latex on top of 6” 1.5lb/ft3 Polyfoam. Latex, in general, is the most durable foam material in the industry so outside of any defects in the latex itself (which is very uncommon), if there is any sagging it would be in the quilting layers or the base layer or in many cases what people are calling "sagging" is really what I call "virtual impressions" which are the result of choosing a comfort level that is too soft.

Based on what you described, I suggest that before you consider purchasing a new product that you contact the manufacturer to see if your mattress qualifies for a warranty replacement. I would keep in mind that all foams will take a bit of a set over time, but if it is an actual impression that is over the 1”-1/2” then you may wish to check on their Warranty Coverage here or give them a call.

I see that now Chuck and Dreamfoam/Brooklyn Bedding is no longer a TMU member, per the comment above. I was considering Nest (I believe Chuck is part owner?)


You are correct that Dreamoam/Brooklyn Bedding are no longer members of The Mattress Underground, however, Chuck is on the operations side for Dreamfoam and not its CEO and he is also not involved with NestBedding.

I was considering Nest (I believe Chuck is part owner?) as well as SleepEZ and/or Arizona (or other companies on your list),


As you already know all the companies that you are considering are manufacturing Trusted Members of this site and like all the members here I think very highly of and consider them to be among the "best of the best" in the industry.

The last mattress we bought was Ultimate Dreams Latex $599 from Chuck. We would like to spend a similar amount if possible, while hopefully avoiding the sagging within 3-4 years (or is that normal?)


Assuming that you are considering a Queen size mattress, you would be hard-pressed to find a latex mattress at the price point you are looking at. While price is certainly important of course.. the "value" of a mattress purchase is what is most important and price is just one of many factors that can affect the "value" of a mattress purchase so you may wish to revisit the 3 most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

Outside of the suitability of a mattress ... the quality and durability of the materials and how long you sleep well on it over the years before you cross the subjective thresholds between "sleeping well" to "sleeping OK" to "tolerating it" and eventually deciding you need to replace it would be the next most important part of the "value" of a mattress purchase. There would also be little value in a mattress purchase where the materials in the mattress are likely to soften or break down too quickly relative to the price you paid. This would also not be covered by a warranty because they only cover defects and foam softening and the loss of comfort and support that goes with it isn't considered to be a defect unless it also has visible impressions that are deeper than the warranty exclusions (see post #174 here )

Phoenix


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Last Edit: 03 Apr 2018 21:55 by Phoenix.

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05 Apr 2018 10:05 #14 by AnnaP

Hi Phoenix,
I wanted to give you an update, as well as pick your brain about something.
I have seen my physical therapist twice now and am starting to feel better, although I need several more treatments. She found that an old injury to my ankle was throwing things out of alignment, causing problems with my hips, and contributing to my lower back pain. My lower back is feeling much better now.

I am continuing to sleep on the 13" gel memory foam mattress from dream foam. I am sleeping better on this mattress than the Nolah I had previously, but am still having some issues. I had been waking up with joint pain and swelling in my fingers, as well as my hand going numb on occasion (the side on am sleeping on) during the night. I also tend to feel a little foggy in the morning.

I decided to buy a wool mattress topper from Sugarloaf Mills (it is about 2" thick) because of the claimed health benefits. I really wanted to sleep on something more natural, as I believe I may be sensitive to the chemicals in memory foam. I realize the mattress in Certi-Pur certified, I just think I may be chemically sensitive.

I have had the wool topper for a little over a week now. Surprisingly, my fingers are no longer stiff and swollen upon waking! The problem is, it seems to take away from the contouring effects of the memory foam. I notice a little more pressure on my hips, but mostly my shoulders. It just isn't as comfortable as sleeping directly on the memory foam.

I am thinking that this mattress may not be the best match for me. I am worried about keeping something that I may be chemically sensitive to. At this point, I feel like I need to buy a mattress locally so I can test it out first.

I checked out a local Parklane Mattress store, told the sales associate about my situation, and he directed me to a few different mattresses. The one I liked the best was the the Pettygrove. I do feel like it may be a little too firm though, and not offer quite enough cushioning. Here is the construction: 2 layers of 3/4" quilt foam, 1" piece of 100% Natural Talalay Latex (ILD 20 - 24), Foam Encased Marshall Coil spring, 1 1/2" firm base foam.

I chatted with Debbie from Parklane on this site, and she said that they are coming out with some new mattress choices soon, and that they will be offering some softer mattresses. They will have a new 6" latex base (in either soft or firm) that you can add layers to, to create a kind of custom mattress. I am waiting for a call from my local store when the new choices are out, so that I can go try them.

My questions for you are: will using my wool topper tend to make all mattresses feel firmer? I really want to continue using it, and hope to find a mattress that it will work with. One of the main things of importance I have learned on this mattress journey, is that I need something with good pressure point relief that can allow my shoulder to sink in enough, as to not cause discomfort throughout the night. It does appear that the wool topper affects how deeply my shoulder sinks in on my current memory foam mattress. Do you think this would be the case with latex as well?

Also, do you think having a mattress with pocketed individual coils would help with contouring and pressure relief better than the all latex soft base? I am just so worried about buying the wrong mattress again.

As always, thank you for your time and knowledge!

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06 Apr 2018 03:21 #15 by Phoenix

Hi AnnaP.

…. My lower back is feeling much better now.


I am very glad that you’ve seen your physical therapist to find the root cause of your lumbar pain and that you now feel much better.

chatted with Debbie from Parklane on this site, and she said that they are coming out with some new mattress choices soon, and that they will be offering some softer mattresses. They will have a new 6" latex base (in either soft or firm) that you can add layers to, to create a kind of custom mattress. I am waiting for a call from my local store when the new choices are out, so that I can go try them.


While someone at your BMI could do very well with Pettygrove, in your case because of your side sleeping and your wider shoulders, a thicker/softer comfort layer can be more assistive with relieving the pressure points and morning numbness. I think it is well worth waiting for a while longer to test their new customizable lines which will allow for more options in “fine tuning” the system to your needs and preferences . Even though you are looking at a different mattress type I think you are going in a good direction for all the right reasons.

My questions for you are: will using my wool topper tend to make all mattresses feel firmer? I really want to continue using it, and hope to find a mattress that it will work with. One of the main things of importance I have learned on this mattress journey, is that I need something with good pressure point relief that can allow my shoulder to sink in enough, as to not cause discomfort throughout the night. It does appear that the wool topper affects how deeply my shoulder sinks in on my current memory foam mattress. Do you think this would be the case with latex as well?


It’s important to remember that the best use of a topper is with a mattress where the comfort layers of the mattress are too thin or too firm. While it's fairly simple to add some surface softness and pressure relief to a mattress that is too firm... it's not really effective to “tailor” your future mattress around the topper that you own. To begin with, I would suggest that you come as close as you can to the most suitable mattress without adding the topper to the mix ... Wool can have many effects on the latex underneath it depending on how thick, compressed, and/or densified it is and how soft it is relative to the foam underneath it. Over time as the wool compresses ... it will have a greater effect on the foam underneath it as it becomes firmer. A wool mattress pad is also generally "softer" than a wool quilted mattress ticking because it isn't an integral part of the mattress and will conform more to the layer underneath it. How well a wool topper/pad on top of a quilted cover will conform to the latex underneath it also depends also on the material of the quilting. The more stretchable the material (stretch knits for example as opposed to a damask cover which is woven) the better the latex can take on the shape of the body and the more pressure relieving the latex can be.

Also, do you think having a mattress with pocketed individual coils would help with contouring and pressure relief better than the all latex soft base? I am just so worried about buying the wrong mattress again.


I can’t predict what type of mattress you might do best with via an online forum, as only you can feel what you feel on the mattress and there are entirely too many personal variables involved. Now that you gained some experience with your previous two mattresses (and also aliviated some of the health concerns) I think you are in a much better position to make the right choice … and ....above all, you are in very good hands. It is great that you decided to visit Parklane… Debbie (the owner) is very knowledgeable and passionate about doing things right on all levels (which includes the environmental footprint) and I would trust her recommendations which would be based on "averages" of customers similar to you. She and her skilled team would be much better than I am at recommending a comfort/firmness level for any of their specific mattress that would be appropriate to you.

I look forward to hearing about the results of your visit.

Phoenix


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15 May 2018 10:25 #16 by Hayden

> U Dreams would meet the quality/value criteria for a Memory Foam product and would and raise no “red flags” for someone in a more “normal” BMI range, but I would advise a slight caution for someone in a higher BMI range.

@Phoenix How about the Talalay Latex at sister site MattressTopper.com?

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16 May 2018 16:40 #17 by Phoenix

Hi Hayden.

Latex is a very durable material (it's the most durable of all the foam types) so it can add to the durability of a mattress compared to other materials, with the deeper layers of a mattress having less effect on mattress durability (a mattress will soften and break down from the top down) and more of an effect on performance and support/alignment. Keep in mind that the overall comfort will be determined by the topper along with the mattress upon which it is placed. Mattress Topper has 3” 19, 28, 36 ILD Talalay toppers which are a good quality/durable materials and if you are in a more "average" weight range then ILDs wouldn't make a significant difference in terms of durability (although it would make "some"), but if you are in a higher weight range then it would make more of a difference. A good rule of thumb is that softer foams, especially in the upper layers of the mattress, are less durable than firmer foams because they are subject to more mechanical compression which stresses the foam more. So if everything else was equal ... a 19 ILD Talalay would be a little less durable than a 36 ILD rating.

Phoenix


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18 May 2018 10:36 #18 by ComeAlongDoctor

Hello Phoenix, firstly thank you so much! You have been an invaluable resource in your search for a new mattress! There is so much information out there that can make a persons head spin and we wouldn’t have known about so many of these companies and other info without your help!

I noticed you said the following regarding the memory foam product that Dreamfoam puts out
" I understand your concern … U Dreams would meet the quality/value criteria for a Memory Foam product and would and raise no “red flags” for someone in a more “normal” BMI range, but I would advise a slight caution for someone in a higher BMI range." 

my question is about their total latex mattress. As they are no longer a recommended manufacturer, do you have concerns about the quality of their latex, or are your concerns specific to the memory foam (ie would they still be recommended for the total latex)

we will have 2 sleepers on a cal king mattress, for a total weight of about 350 - 450. we are customizing the mattress based on specs for 1 sleeper who has constant chronic pain issues. The other one can literally sleep on a wooden floor (no joke). 

Sleeper 1: 5'5", 215 lbs (has lost 55 pounds in past 6 months) , back sleeper only (due to shoulder surgery 1.5 years ago which does not allow for sleeping on either side). severe chronic pain especially in cervical neck region, also pain in sacroiliac joint, low back, shoulder pain, sciatica (all being managed with regular physical therapy and medications) 
 
we spoke to sleep on latex and found the following. they recommended the medium, but we were concerned with our higher BMIs, this would not be supportive enough. what are your thoughts on this? 
MEDIUM 
6 inch core - 34 ILD 100% natural dunlop 
3 inch comfort layer - 20 ILD 00% natural dunlop 
- worried that with 20ILD, we will sink and "feel" the support layer right away due to higher BMIs 

FIRM 
6 inch core 44 ILD 100% natural dunlop 
3 inch comfort 30 ILD 100% natural dunlop 

it seems that our ideal mattress would be somewhere between these 2 specifications (maybe 36 ILD core, with 28-32 comfort layer), which is the reason we are leaning away from SOL and towards the dreamfoam UD total latex. Because it can be customized whereas SOL would require an extra topper if one is too hard or too soft. The ability to swap out comfort layers that you get with Dreamfoam is appealing to us vs the pre- manufactured SOL.

Finally, should we be concerned that the dreamfoam is blended talalay (60% synthetic, 40% natural) and the optional dunlop core is 100% synthetic (vs 100% natural dunlop from SOL). Is the Dunlop that in SOL going to be firmer and so their medium option with their ILD’s going to feel firmer just based on the fact that it’s Dunlop and not talalay?

what are your thoughts on all of this based on BMI, health issues ect. We totally understand that it’s best to go lay on a bed and feel it out yourself but we wantd to get your opinion on these two beds based on your many years of experience and knowledge of these companies (we’re really concerned that the Dreamfoam isn’t concerned by you anymore but cannot find threads discussing the total latex mattress)

we have narrowed down to these 2 based out of all possible total latex mattresses based mostly on our limited budget (absolute max for mattress only around 1400). We know other options like sleepez and others might have more suitable customization but are slightly out of our price range for the moment, so trying to see if UD total latex is reasonable option. 

Thank you so much for reading this novel! There’s just so much information to take into consideration, especially when health and pain issues factor heavily into our decision.

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20 May 2018 00:14 #19 by Phoenix

Hi ComeAlongDoctor.

Welcome to our forum! :) and thank you for your kind words. I am glad the information here is useful to you.

As they are no longer a recommended manufacturer, do you have concerns about the quality of their latex, or are your concerns specific to the memory foam (ie would they still be recommended for the total latex)


DF has a good shop with many quality products. The slight caution that I added is for higher weight ranges for the models that have 4lb of memory foam in the comfort layer and does not apply to the Total Latex product. Latex in general is the most durable of all the foam materials (latex foam, memory foam, polyfoam) regardless of whether it is Dunlop or Talalay or is made from natural rubber, synthetic rubber, or a blend of both. The Total Latex would be a good quality/value product with no weak links in its design.

Finally, should we be concerned that the dreamfoam is blended talalay (60% synthetic, 40% natural) and the optional dunlop core is 100% synthetic (vs 100% natural dunlop from SOL).


While it can be good quality in either, synthetic, blend or all natural version ... an all-natural version is often preferred because the greater elasticity that can somewhat make up for the fact that Dunlop is more difficult to make as soft as Talalay and because the lower cost of production can make up for the higher cost of using more NR latex as a raw material. NR is more expensive than SBR. Blends are often used for reasons of cost, desirable combinations of certain latex qualities, and ease of working with the material. NR is often used for its natural qualities and because it is more elastic and resilient. With the Dunlop method ... NR would generally be more durable overall than a blend or synthetic (SBR) latex although there may be value in using a blend because it is less expensive and still a very durable material compared to other foams and in some cases a blend can improve the properties of the foam. In practical terms all of these differences are relatively small in the cured foam and many people would not feel significant differences between the two in side by side testing. You can see more about the differences between synthetic (SBR) and natural (NR) rubber in post #2 here .

Sleeper 1: 5'5", 215 lbs (has lost 55 pounds in past 6 months) , back sleeper only (due to shoulder surgery 1.5 years ago which does not allow for sleeping on either side). severe chronic pain especially in cervical neck region, also pain in sacroiliac joint, low back, shoulder pain, sciatica (all being managed with regular physical therapy and medications)


Congratulation to Sleeper 1 on the weight loss , but I am sorry to hear that he/she is experiencing an entire range of severe chronic pains. Weight loss changes your needs and preferences in a mattress quite significantly so I am glad you are considering a component style system. 2” to 3" of latex over a 6" or 7" of support core would certainly be 'in the range" of a design or potential layering combination that could be used for a back sleeper of 215 lbs . but the type of latex and the specific ILD's of each layer are what you will need to either sleep on or test in person to know for sure. More specific than this would depend on what your body tells you with testing on specific combinations or failing that the suggestions of the manufacturer based on their "averages" for customers that were similar to you and any other input that you could provide them to help them help you more effectively.

I know it's one of the most common questions asked on the forum ... but it's also the question that is the least possible for anyone to know or predict for someone else. If local testing is not an option, the next best way is a more in depth conversation with each of the manufactures who have much more detailed knowledge of their specific materials and designs and would be in the best position to make suggestions that "fit the average" for their mattresses. In this case you will know how closely you come to their averages once you receive it and how much if any fine tuning needs to be done.

I am not very sure if the chronic pains Sleeper 1 is experiencing are health or mattress related, or both, bu tthis makes that much more difficult to find a best fit and you would need to identify and isolate the causes of your pains, which is not very easy. You may find helpful some of the information about the many different symptoms that people may experience on a mattress and some of the most common causes behind them in post #2 here .

I would also closely look into the pillow issue The pillow that works best can vary with different mattresses depending on how much you are sinking into the mattress and the distance between your head and neck and the mattress surface. Upper back issues can also point to a pillow that is either too high or too low for your body type or sleeping position and doesn't maintain the gap between your head and the mattress and keep your head and neck if good alignment over the course of the night which can affect the upper back as well.

it seems that our ideal mattress would be somewhere between these 2 specifications (maybe 36 ILD core, with 28-32 comfort layer), Because it can be customized whereas SOL would require an extra topper if one is too hard or too soft. The ability to swap out comfort layers that you get with Dreamfoam is appealing to us vs the pre- manufactured SOL. which is the reason we are leaning away from SOL and towards the dreamfoam UD total latex. Because it can be customized whereas SOL would require an extra topper if one is too hard or too soft. The ability to swap out comfort layers that you get with Dreamfoam is appealing to us vs the pre- manufactured SOL.


The SOL mattress also has the ability to be opened and customized... Its cover has a heavy-duty zipper that allows for layer exchanges. The zipper is hidden underneath the bottom edge of the mattress and can unzipped to access the latex foam inside the mattress and can also be completely removed and dry cleaned. You may wish to contact SOL and see if based on their experience a 6” of 34 ILD and a 3” of 30 could be better in your circumstance. I understand your concern wiht bottoming out. I would keep in mind that generally higher BMI sleepers require firmer materials (in the support layers especially). This combined with a need for a firmer surface for back sleeping indicates that you can certainly could use firmer latex. Both your finalists could be a good match depending on your needs, preferences, and both have the option to be customized before and after purchase.

Hope this helps ... and I know the feeling around making the decisions about all the final details. There's a lot to be said for gut feel once you know that all your choices are between "good" and "good".Sometimes that's the hardest part of all but I think that regardless of how you choose you will do well as all your options seem to be good ones and if your purchase does not turn out as well as you have hoped for you at least have a good return/exchange fail safe.

I’ll be interested in learning about your final decision and answer any other specific questions you might have.

Phoenix


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29 May 2018 12:25 #20 by rackin

How do I search for small mattress manufacturing companies in my area?

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