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normal Mattress comfort layers - latex

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09 Oct 2017 13:11 #11 by Phoenix

Hi Sageriverheart,

Welcome to the forum! :)

I haven't seen mentioned anywhere that latex can get harder/firmer over time.


Latex will soften gradually over time, not get harder. Compression set tests and impact tests will show loss of ILD and core height, not an increase in ILD.

If your mattress feels a bit firmer to you, it could be a result from other materials used within your sleep set. The changing of a foundation from one that flexes to one that if completely flat and firm could impact overall comfort. The mattress encasement fabric will soften over time, but if wool is used in the encasement it is possible that this could “firm up” a bit as time goes on. The addition of a mattress pad/protector and fitted sheet (or introduction of new versions of these items) will firm up the overall feel of a mattress. If the mattress was very old, or for some reason exposed to excessive UV or oxidation to the point of hardening the product (which would be rare but more likely in an uncovered state near a window and forced air heating), this could result in the materials actually aging prematurely and they could feel a bit harder. Also, if your mattress uses a very plush upper layer of latex and very firm layers directly beneath, as the upper layer over time begins to soften a bit, you could “feel through” this layer a bit more to the firmer layer beneath, and this could provide you the sensation that the mattress is getting harder, even though in effect it isn’t. But overall, “hardening” of latex over time through use isn’t something normally experienced.

Phoenix


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18 Jan 2018 11:22 #12 by cleangeorge007

First time using the forum...My wife is totally bedridden w/MS. Presently sleeping on latex 6"core 32 ild w/2" 28ild & 2" 22ild toppers. The two toppers will bottom out in about 6 months and need replacing, of course the top one is the worse. I have also tried different brands as well as memory foam. Is there a mattress/topper combo that would be better suited for someone that is always in bed??

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18 Jan 2018 13:21 #13 by MattressToGo

Hey cleangeorge007,

That's sad to hear about your wife. I'm sorry about that.

Regarding your comments about latex, has it been your experience previously that these comfort layers just lost their comfort in the area where you wife sleeps? Latex will tend to be the most durable of the foam materials, but it would be odd for the layers to "flatten out" in six months, even with continuous use. But if your wife stays in only one area of the mattress, the foam in that area will soften of course, and if she is quite sensitive then it may be that you are replacing comfort layers more frequently.

You are correct that the top layers will go through the most mechanical stress and tend to wear out the fastest, especially when softer. A slightly firmer latex will offer a bit longer comfort life in your situation, but it may not provide the feel your wife desires. Dense memory foam is a common material used in such a situation (I was just researching an article about this in a medical journal). A good 5 pound density can work well.

There are other topper-style comfort materials, including micro and nanocoils, that may help to provide a bit more of a consistent comfort life for your wife. Wool can also be an upper comfort material that actually compresses a bit over time and firms up, and is a popular choice with those who are very pressure point sensitive, such as those with fibromyalgia. Have you looked into some of the thinner air bladders that change pressure that are used in clinical settings for ulcer relief?

Those are just a few quick thoughts I had as I came across your post. I hope your wife is able to feel better.

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator
Beducation / Mattress To Go


Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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29 Jan 2018 05:59 #14 by Plgorman

I am trying to decide on a Nest Bed Hybrid mattress. Any thought? I have a herniated disc, back and neck pain. Nest Bed is trying to sell me a Q3 bed but I cannot afford it. Now they have suggested a Hybrid. Any thoughts

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29 Jan 2018 22:21 - 29 Jan 2018 22:23 #15 by Phoenix

Hi Plgorman.

Welcome to our forum! :)

I am sorry to hear about your medical condition and I understand that you are trying to make the best out of this situation within a limited budget. One thing to keep in mind is that because of your preexisting condition the cause(s) of your back and neck pains may be compounded and you will need to investigate if the pains you are experiencing are due to the herniated disk or due to support/comfort issues or a combination of both. You need to do more of an extended local or in-home testing to find the best sleep system for you and the construction that best matches your “sweet spot”. Nest has the advantage of a good 100 nights of return/exchange policy which should give you enough time with any of the trial and error that may be needed.

As far as choosing between the two mattresses, it is impossible for me to diagnose someone with a very specific medical condition and determine what may or may not work for you via an online forum… while I can certainly help with "how" to choose ... I cannot make specific suggestions or recommendations for either of the mattresses or the combinations of materials or components that would be suitable for you because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see post #2 here ).

I understand that because your limited budget you may not wish to go with the recommendation that Nest had for a Q3 all latex but if you want the benefit of latex you can certainly could go with their hybrid line up mattress using spring and latex on top which can work just as well and meet all your needs. In fact many people prefer the feel of latex over sprigs, but again I wouldn’t know what you would respond best to and you would need to carefully select the right level of comfort/support for you because of your herniated disc condition.

As you may be aware Nest Bedding is using high quality and durable materials and they are one of our site members which means that I think very highly of them and that I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of quality or their products, value, service, knowledge, and transparency. I would certainly suggest to you to rely on Nest’s advice as they are much more familiar with their own mattress designs and materials than anyone else (including me) and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your local testing to make suggestions based on the "averages" of other customers that may be similar to you.

I would be interested to find out what you decide and how things progress for you.

Phoenix


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Last Edit: 29 Jan 2018 22:23 by Phoenix.

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21 Mar 2018 14:46 #16 by Jacqulyn

After researching on your site and many others, I purchased an Urban Green Mattress and Cover, and waterproof mattress pad a year ago from Foam Sweet Foam. I'm a cold-natured woman of 110 lbs. Most all sources say latex does not sleep hot, but my 100% latex mattress feels like it retains heat. It isn't hot when I go to bed, but quickly heats up and I'm continually turning over about every 20 minutes trying to cool off.
A few months ago I purchased a 100% bamboo mattress topper, hoping it would put enough space between my body and the mattress to help keep me cool. It helps some, but not enough. My sheets are 100% Egyptian Cotton 300 thread count Percale. My latex mattress is resting on plywood which is set on a bed frame. Making the room cooler just makes the top side of my body cold, while the mattress side of my body is still hot. Other than the temperature issue, I love the comfort of the latex mattress. I'm losing a lot of sleep and feeling desperate. Do you have any other suggestions on how to keep cool?

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23 Mar 2018 00:41 #17 by Phoenix

Hi Jacqulyn.

Welcome to our forum! :)

Other than the temperature issue, I love the comfort of the latex mattress. I'm losing a lot of sleep and feeling desperate. Do you have any other suggestions on how to keep cool?


Good to hear that although you have some temperature issues, the Urban Green Mattress meets your comfort and support needs. It is very likely that with a bit of detective work you’ll be able to track down the contributing factors and adjust your sleeping microclimate.

All foams are insulators (rather than heat conductors) so to some degree they will all be warmer than mattresses that contain no foam at all (such as mattresses that only have an innerspring and layers of natural fibers on top) but these tend to be premium or super premium mattresses and for the most part almost all mattresses have some type of foam in the comfort layers.

It is important to recognize that no two people are alike, and even with naturally derived materials such as latex that is known to be the most breathable and “temperature neutral” relative to all the different types of foam materials, how it feels to a particular individual is very personal and usually is the result of many interconnected variables including room temperature, humidity, sheets, bedding, and bedclothes, mattress protector or any mattress pads or toppers being used, and of course where you are in the "oven to iceberg" range. The firmness of the mattress and how much you sink into the mattress is also an important factor that can affect the sleeping temperature in addition to the fact that some people can sleep warmer on mattresses that most people are generally fine with.

There is more about tracking down a potential cause or causes for temperature regulation issues (at least to the degree possible for a specific mattress) in post #2 here .and the posts it links to that may be helpful, but generally speaking the materials, layers, and components of a sleeping system that are closer to your skin will have a bigger effect on airflow, moisture transport, and temperature regulation than materials, layers, and components that are further away from your skin.

My latex mattress is resting on plywood which is set on a bed frame.


A mattress breaths from all sides to different degrees and placing your mattress upon plywood would prevent the mattress ventilating from underneath which may be a large contributor to the heat buildup you are experiencing. You may wish to consider something like a coir bed rug under the mattress. or placing your mattress on firm breathable slated base that allows for sufficient air flow.

The waterproof mattress pad/protector you are using may have a significant effect on the temperature regulation because it can add to the insulating effect or to the moisture wicking effect of your mattress. You can see more about the effect of different mattress protectors in post #89 here.

The best way to track down where temperature issues are coming from would be to look at all the layers between your skin and the floor to see if any of them could be contributing to the temperature issue. Layers or materials that are closer to you and are more breathable and allow for more moisture wicking will help with temperature regulation issues while layers that allow for less airflow or moisture wicking that are closer to you can make them worse.

Your sheets are cotton so this shouldn't be an issue and a 300 thread count would not be high enough to trap the heat. Linen sheets are probably the coolest sleeping type of fabric but they can also be costly. There is more about how different types of mattress protectors can affect sleeping temperature in post #89 here . Finally the next layers down would normally be the mattress itself which includes the cover and the top layers of foam.

Your blankets and bedding and the temperature or humidity of the room can also make a difference if there are no layers underneath you that can be changed that are part of the underlying cause of the temperature issue.

Wool is among the best temperature regulating material but I would also keep in mind that it regulates temperature in both directions (it's used in the desert and also in cold climates because of this) so while it may not feel "cool" ... it generally doesn't feel "hot" either and it also helps to regulate moisture (which can trap heat) and reduce the perception of temperature that comes from higher humidity levels (similar to how temperatures feel cooler on less humid days than they do on more humid days).

In many cases changing the mattress protector, sheets, or bedding to cooler versions can make "enough" of a difference for many people who would otherwise sleep hot on a mattress. It would also be worth mentioning that your face and head is also a major part of how your body regulates temperature and a cooler pillow can sometimes make a surprising difference in how warm you sleep as well. Temperature issues are usually a combination of factors and can be a bit complex, but with a bit of experimenting and adjusting your sleeping microclimate, you’ll be able to get the cool and quality sleep and rest you are looking for.

I’ll be interested to learn about how you progress through your evaluation and any changes that you are able to make.

Phoenix


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07 May 2018 01:50 - 07 May 2018 01:55 #18 by Yodwinder

I've been looking at assembling a mattress using components from Mattresses.net, I actually emailed them and got a less than ideal response, only one question was answered in the response, a grand total of two lines. Hoping for a more informative answer.

" I've been considering a DIY mattress build and I have a few questions about the construction. I am 5' 11" and 155 lbs, my girlfriend is about 5' 7" and 140 lbs. We both prefer a very plush bed and are not worried about the "feel" being too soft; however, we are a bit worried about it not providing proper support and alignment if it is layered too soft.

The current build would be a 15" King mattress layered as follows:

1. 3" Talalay Copper Infused Topper - 15 ILD
2.

  • 3" Plush Rejuvenite Talalay Topper - 19 ILD
  • OR
  • 3" Talalay Copper Infused Topper - 21 ILD
3. 3" Puralux Slow Recovery Topper - 24 ILD
4. 6" Zoned Dunlop Core - 31/35 ILD
5. 15" Bamboo Wool Cover
6. Copper Infused Mattress Protector


I have read that a difference of more than ~5 ILD in comfort layers can lead to feeling like you are "bottoming out", which is exaggerated in the lower ILD offerings. The Rejuvenite or second Copper Infused topper would serve as an intermediate layer to counteract that feeling. Would there be any benefit to adding a second Copper Infused topper instead of the Rejuvenite, or vice versa?

The more important questions is would 9" of comfort layers at 15/19-21/24 ILD be inadequate for providing the necessary spinal alignment?



The second question is about the core. I like the theory behind the zoned core, but with 9" of comfort layers on top, would there be any appreciable difference in feeling or alignment/support between the different zones? As far as felt differences go, would one even feel a difference between Dunlop or Talalay at that point?

I would appreciate any advice you could give, thank you! "

The response I received was to omit the Puralux, and use the 15 ILD copper and the 19 ILD Rejuvenite and the rest of the build looked good. I assume this meant to completely omit the third comfort layer and do Copper-15|Rejuvenite-19|Core, for a total 6" of comfort layers, though it was not very clear. Nothing else was answered, so I am hoping for some more in depth answers. I would like to go with 15" just for future flexibility and fine tuning.


Thanks in advance![/color]

Last Edit: 07 May 2018 01:55 by Yodwinder.

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08 May 2018 00:21 #19 by Phoenix

Hi Yodwinder.

Welcome to our forum! :)

Designing and building your own mattress can be a lot of fun but can also be quite frustrating and involves a lot more knowledge of how different materials, layers, and components interact than many people suspect and I woulddo some more DIY research by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process.

The more important questions is would 9" of comfort layers at 15/19-21/24 ILD be inadequate for providing the necessary spinal alignment?


This is a good question … your “design of 15” of latex would be much more than needed at your BMI and weight for your comfort/support needs and in this case excessive thickness in combination with the plushness of the top 3 Talalay layers may be totally counterproductive. . I am not sure what the reason is for going with a 15” thick mattress , but the comfort layers in your DIY come to a total of 9” of Talalay latex layers with ILDs between 15-24. This would be much too plush/soft and may compromise your posture and alignment. This renders

The compression of each layer (mainly controlled by thickness, firmness, compression modulus, hysteresis, and position along with a few other specs) are what creates the pressure relieving cradle of a mattress in the top layers which re-distributes weight and pressure on the bony prominences and pressure points of the body while the resistance to further compression of the deeper layers is what "stops" the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far and putting the spine and joints out of their natural alignment. The balance between the opposing needs of pressure relief and spinal alignment is the main factor behind all mattress design and theory and why different mattresses match the body types and sleeping positions and preferences of different people ... or don't.

So the key is to make your best choice in terms of the latex type and properties you are looking for (I would identify the qualities that are most important to you) and to choose the thickness that would solve the specific reasons you are looking for this material in the first place ... be most suitable for your body type, sleeping positions, preferences, and the layering of the mattress it is going on, ... and has the best combination of and tradeoff between cost and quality that you are comfortable with. A good starting point for a comfort layer is 2" (even less in some cases depending on what you are trying to achieve) and then add thickness if you have specific reasons to do so and if your mattress design has enough "room" to add extra thickness without compromising support and alignment.

For example a 6” of base/support system and a 4-6” comfort/transition layer system could give you all you need. It is very rare that anyone would need more than 12” thickness. The example below would be a more balanced design for an average person of your weight range that desires a thicker mattress.
6” of 35 ILD Support base
2-3” of 28 ILD transition
2” of Soft Latex (24 ILD)
1” of Plush Latex (19)
Optional 1” of 15 ILD (if you really think you want the top to be ultra-soft)

I have read that a difference of more than ~5 ILD in comfort layers can lead to feeling like you are "bottoming out", which is exaggerated in the lower ILD offerings. The Rejuvenite or second Copper Infused topper would serve as an intermediate layer to counteract that feeling. Would there be any benefit to adding a second Copper Infused topper instead of the Rejuvenite, or vice versa?


While I understand what you “mean” by “bottoming out”, I want to comment that you won’t be compressing the stacked foams to their minimum thickness. All of the foam layers of a mattress work together, not individually or sequentially, so you’re desiring something in the transition layer that matches better with the “compressed ILD” of the uppermost layer so that this transition from the comfort layers to the base foam isn’t so abrupt, if I understand this correctly.

with 9" of comfort layers on top, would there be any appreciable difference in feeling or alignment/support between the different zones? As far as felt differences go, would one even feel a difference between Dunlop or Talalay at that point?


While you wouldn’t have any reason to be concerned with “bottoming out” even for lower ILD ranges (especially for very small +_ 5 ILD variations in firmness), your intuition is correct in that generally speaking you will "feel" more of the upper layers than the deeper layers within the mattress.... Unless you are the “Princess and the Pea” type it is not very likely that you would feel much difference between the Dunlop and Talalay or the zoning all the way down through the 9” of top layers. Dunlop, of course, has a different "feel" and performance than Talalay and is less lively or springy. You can see a comparison between them in post #7 here . With thinner comfort layers some people would notice more of a difference than others with transition or support layers that used each material if the top layers were the same type of latex. I am not privy to your conversation with Arizona Premium, but I agree with their response to you… and it would make sense that they would advise you to skip the third comfort layer and go for a 12’ maximum.

Good luck and I’d be curious to know what you ended up deciding. Arizona is one of our Expert members here and you can always reach out directly to them thourh the Ask an Expert feature of our forum.

Phoenix


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09 May 2018 03:13 #20 by Yodwinder

Phoenix wrote: Designing and building your own mattress can be a lot of fun but can also be quite frustrating and involves a lot more knowledge of how different materials, layers, and components interact than many people suspect and I would do some more DIY research by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process.


I tend to DIY and over complicate everything I do so I know what I'm getting myself into here. I also don't have any illusion about this being cheaper than going pre-built, though if it was I wouldn't complain.

Phoenix wrote: I am not sure what the reason is for going with a 15” thick mattress , but the comfort layers in your DIY come to a total of 9” of Talalay latex layers with ILDs between 15-24. This would be much too plush/soft and may compromise your posture and alignment.


The reasoning behind 15" is really just for the aspect of fine tuning and was actually inspired by the 16" offering from Foam Sweet Foam, though they include the wool in the cover in their measurement. I am not dead set on a 15", it just seemed like the option with the most flexibility for customization now and in the future. The misalignment and lack of support, however, is exactly what I was worried about. I had a feeling that would be the case, but I wanted to be sure before I purchased anything.


Phoenix wrote: So the key is to make your best choice in terms of the latex type and properties you are looking for (I would identify the qualities that are most important to you) and to choose the thickness that would solve the specific reasons you are looking for this material in the first place ... be most suitable for your body type, sleeping positions, preferences, and the layering of the mattress it is going on, ... and has the best combination of and tradeoff between cost and quality that you are comfortable with. A good starting point for a comfort layer is 2" (even less in some cases depending on what you are trying to achieve) and then add thickness if you have specific reasons to do so and if your mattress design has enough "room" to add extra thickness without compromising support and alignment.


The most important qualities would be as much plushness as I could reasonably get while maintaining proper support and alignment. We are both side sleepers, and occasionally back, though I feel that has more to do with how "hammocked" the current mattress is. Typically we are almost strictly side sleepers.


Phoenix wrote: While I understand what you “mean” by “bottoming out”, I want to comment that you won’t be compressing the stacked foams to their minimum thickness. All of the foam layers of a mattress work together, not individually or sequentially, so you’re desiring something in the transition layer that matches better with the “compressed ILD” of the uppermost layer so that this transition from the comfort layers to the base foam isn’t so abrupt, if I understand this correctly.


You are correct, the perception of an abrupt transition, or lack thereof, between layers is what I was looking to avoid.


Phoenix wrote: While you wouldn’t have any reason to be concerned with “bottoming out” even for lower ILD ranges (especially for very small +/-5 ILD variations in firmness), your intuition is correct in that generally speaking you will "feel" more of the upper layers than the deeper layers within the mattress.... Unless you are the “Princess and the Pea” type it is not very likely that you would feel much difference between the Dunlop and Talalay or the zoning all the way down through the 9” of top layers. Dunlop, of course, has a different "feel" and performance than Talalay and is less lively or springy. You can see a comparison between them in post #7 here . With thinner comfort layers some people would notice more of a difference than others with transition or support layers that used each material if the top layers were the same type of latex. I am not privy to your conversation with Arizona Premium, but I agree with their response to you… and it would make sense that they would advise you to skip the third comfort layer and go for a 12’ maximum.

For example a 6” of base/support system and a 4-6” comfort/transition layer system could give you all you need. It is very rare that anyone would need more than 12” thickness. The example below would be a more balanced design for an average person of your weight range that desires a thicker mattress.
6” of 35 ILD Support base
2-3” of 28 ILD transition
2” of Soft Latex (24 ILD)
1” of Plush Latex (19)
Optional 1” of 15 ILD (if you really think you want the top to be ultra-soft)


This is where the advice differs and the waters get kind of murky. Arizona suggested simply removing the #3 layer which would have been the Puralux topper, and opting for the Rejuvenite topper for layer #2. That would have left the layers at 15/19/31-35. That is greatly different from your suggestion and would seem like it may run into the aforementioned issue of lack of alignment and support due to the 19 ILD essentially amounting to the "transition" layer, instead of your suggestion of a 28 ILD foam.

I also wanted to use the 3" copper topper because of the heat conductance/dispersion effects, though I don't know how much of an impact it would truly make as I was unable to find much in the way of feedback on that particular product. With your suggestion of using 1" of 15 ILD on top of 2" of 19 ILD, I am afraid that 3" of 15 ILD may cause the same "hammock" feeling that I am dealing with now. At the same time, if I went for the 19 ILD copper and put a 1" 15 ILD topper on it, it entirely defeats the purpose of the copper.

This is currently my revised build:

1. 3" Copper Topper - 15 ILD
2. 2" Blended Talalay - 22 ILD
3. 2" Blended Talalay - 28 ILD
4. 6" Blended Talalay Core - 36 ILD
5. Bamboo/Wool cover - 14"
6. Copper Mattress Protector

That brings it down to 13" and the layers are more balanced while still retaining the copper topper as the uppermost layer. Again, if you feel that 3" of 15 ILD would be truly detrimental, please let me know and I'll explore other options in lieu of that. Also, due to the lack of a 13" cover, I chose the 14" as not to "pre-load" the layers with the 12", though I do worry about the layers sliding. Would be interested in your opinion on that as well, don't really care to straighten layers every night before bed.

Thanks!

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