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normal Mattress comfort layers - latex

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10 May 2018 13:08 - 10 May 2018 16:01 #21 by Phoenix

Hi Yodwinder.

It looks like you are making good progress and are on the right track. :)

The reasoning behind 15" is really just for the aspect of fine tuning and was actually inspired by the 16" offering from Foam Sweet Foam, though they include the wool in the cover in their measurement. I am not dead set on a 15", it just seemed like the option with the most flexibility for customization now and in the future. The misalignment and lack of support, however, is exactly what I was worried about. I had a feeling that would be the case, but I wanted to be sure before I purchased anything.


Aside from being a preference choice, the main benefit of a thicker latex mattress is that it can be more adaptable for heavier weights (30 + BMI) and multiple sleeping positions. It will compress from softer to firmer more gradually which means that there is more "range" of compression without the mattress becoming too firm for heavier weights (or parts of the body).
As your BMI is 33+ and a side sleeper I understand why you are looking at thicker options that allow for after purchase customization, but IMO a 12” would be enough for to give you the best of both worlds. Just to give a bit of perspective, in the large majority of cases ... 8" - 9" of latex is thick enough to include the combination softer layers (or sometimes sections) for pressure relief and firmer layers for the support that most people of average or even higher weights would need. People that have much higher body weights or larger body types may choose more than the "average" thickness and may prefer the feel and extra adaptability of say 12" of latex. Thicker mattresses can also use firmer materials because thickness and softness are closely related and work together. These would be all good questions to ask the manufacturer or retailer of a mattress/components so they can discuss the differences between the different options they have available in terms that are more specific to the layers they use or options they provide.

The most important qualities would be as much plushness as I could reasonably get while maintaining proper support and alignment. We are both side sleepers, and occasionally back, though I feel that has more to do with how "hammocked" the current mattress is.


At your BMI and being primarily side sleepers, 12” thickness would be more than enough to achieve the right comfort/plushness level you desire and provide the needed support, and I would tend to agree with you about the "hommocked" issues in your current mattress.

This is where the advice differs and the waters get kind of murky. Arizona suggested simply removing the #3 layer which would have been the Puralux topper and opting for the Rejuvenite topper for layer #2. That would have left the layers at 15/19/31-35. That is greatly different from your suggestion and would seem like it may run into the aforementioned issue of lack of alignment and support due to the 19 ILD essentially amounting to the "transition" layer, instead of your suggestion of a 28 ILD foam.


Arizona mattress advice is very valuable and appropriate as it relates to your particular needs and preferences; To clarify... the “suggestion” in the previous post was not tailored specifically for you and for your personal preferences (e.g. “as much plushness as I could reasonably get”)… it was a general example connected with the thickness aspect of a “typical” construction for someone of your BMI to show that 16” thickness is more than most people would need. I do not make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, or PPP or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see post #2 here ).

I would work closely with Ken/Arizona or in general with any manufacturer or retailer that supplies your components as they are much more familiar with their own designs and materials than anyone else (including me) and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your local testing to make suggestions based on the "averages" of other customers that may be similar to you.

That brings it down to 13" and the layers are more balanced while still retaining the copper topper as the uppermost layer. … I also wanted to use the 3" copper topper because of the heat conductance/dispersion effects, though I don't know how much of an impact it would truly make as I was unable to find much in the way of feedback on that particular product.


You are correct that a 13” is more realistic and as far as the copper topper… Talalay Global adds copper in one of their specialty products to add a small addition of heat transfer. Latex, in general, is the most breathable and "temperature neutral" of all the different types of foam materials but the firmness of a mattress and how much you sink into it can also affect sleeping temperature as well. Keep in mind that there are so many variables involved (including your room temperature and humidity, your sheets and bedding and bedclothes, your mattress protector or any mattress pads you are using, and where you are in the "oven to iceberg" range) and some people can sleep warmer on mattresses that most people are generally fine with ... there is more about tracking down a potential cause or causes for temperature regulation issues (at least to the degree possible for a specific mattress) in post #2 here and the posts it links to that may be helpful.

Also, due to the lack of a 13" cover, I chose the 14" as not to "pre-load" the layers with the 12", though I do worry about the layers sliding. Would be interested in your opinion on that as well, don't really care to straighten layers every night before bed.


A tighter cover, of course, would allow for less shifting than a looser one. Generally speaking a zip cover with loose layers can have some layers slightly shift or bunch a little and this has to be weighed against the advantage of changing layers either initially or down the road if one layer softens or wears out faster than the others or if needs or preferences change so you can replace an individual layer without replacing the whole mattress. Separate layers also act a little more independently and will "act" a little softer although other factors (such as ILD or layer thickness) will affect this as well. Latex is very sticky so loose layers tend to stay put and if for some reason they do shift over time or because you move the mattress or put it on its side it's an easy process to unzip the cover and "wave" the layers back into position. There is more about a finished mattress that is tape edged vs a component mattress with a zip cover in post #2 here .

I look forward to hearing about the construction you've settled for after you had a chance to speak it over with Ken. I am sure that many visitors would benefit from your learning experience

Phoenix


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Last Edit: 10 May 2018 16:01 by Phoenix.

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10 May 2018 14:54 #22 by Yodwinder

We're on the wrong track here lol. I think you're responding to someone else but quoting my post.

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10 May 2018 15:59 #23 by Phoenix

Hi Yodwinder.

:lol: That does it... and serves me well for working on more than one post at a time. Name correction to get us on the right track ;) ... the content is yours though... I'll edit the post to reflect the intended recipient.

Phoenix


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31 May 2018 13:11 #24 by Jacqulyn

I took your advice and am now sleeping much cooler. My latex mattress was resting on plywood. I replaced it with the coir bed rug as you suggested. I also replaced the waterproof mattress pad/protector with a mattress pad made from bamboo. These changes have made a significant difference in my sleeping comfort. I am sleeping much better, no complaints now. Thank you, Phoenix, for being available to us to offer your expertise in sleeping comfort. I am very grateful.

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31 May 2018 23:30 #25 by Phoenix

Hi Jacqulyn.

Thank you for your kind words... I am glad we could be of assistance, but above all, I am very glad that you are sleeping much better and that you tracked down and solved the temperature issues you mentioned in Post $16 :lol:

Phoenix


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28 Jul 2018 07:56 #26 by Q8canuck

Hello Phoenix,
I've been reading lots of material on your site (including tutorial) in an effort to understand more about latex mattresses and how to make an informed decision. We made a less than satisfactory decision with our last mattress and are determined to get it right this time, so are spending a lot more time on research and homework!
A post that caught my attention was about the customizable split king Presto mattress whose layers can be rearranged to suit each person's comfort. This makes sense to me if it's really as easy and practical as they say to rearrange the layers. However, all layers are made of organic Dunlop latex and I'd like to know how this construction would compare to the same in 100% Talalay, or a Talalay blend combination. What I've read on the site is that Dunlop has a firmer feel and a less consistent manufactured composition.
What is your opinion on a 100% Dunlop mattress compared to Talalay?
Are there other companies who make a similar customizable style in either Dunlop or Talalay?
- I'm also curious about the pros and cons of Talalay blends that contain 30% natural latex and balance is synthetic.
I live in Canada in an area where the opportunities to visit retailers and test various latex mattresses is very limited without travelling to major centres, so most of my research is being done online. Your site and forum information is extremely helpful in making the right decision. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and valued opinions.

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30 Jul 2018 01:58 #27 by Phoenix

Hi Q8canuck.


Thank you for your kind words and appreciation of our site. You are certainly making good use of it and have learned a great deal in the process :) and while I am sorry to hear about your past “less than satisfactory” mattress decision, I am glad that you are "determined to get it right this time". :)

A post that caught my attention was about the customizable split king Presto mattress whose layers can be rearranged to suit each person's comfort. This makes sense to me if it's really as easy and practical as they say to rearrange the layers.


You are correct that a configurable system is “easy and practical” and offers the user the flexibility to customize the feel of a mattress not only immediately after the purchase, but also in the future, without having to replace the entire mattress. There are versions of customizable systems that use all latex, latex with polyfoam cores, memory foam with polyfoam or innerspring cores, and even versions using only polyfoam. As you discovered this can be especially useful when ordering something online, as it gives the consumer a bit of a “safety net” to be able to replace/rearrange layers if their selection doesn’t feel as they had hoped after ordering. MFC's Presto is a 10” all natural organic mattress, that has a top- brass zipper cover that will allow you to open and rearrange the 4 latex layers inside for each side in the split king to match each partner comfort needs.

However, all layers are made of organic Dunlop latex and I'd like to know how this construction would compare to the same in 100% Talalay, or a Talalay blend combination. What I've read on the site is that Dunlop has a firmer feel and a less consistent manufactured composition.


Your understanding is correct that Dunlop and Talalay of the same thickness and ILD won't feel the same in terms of their firmness for most people because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). You can see a comparison between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here . It is also true that Dunlop is less consistent in its cell structure (has a wider variety of cell size, shape, and structure) which along with its particle dispersion is what accounts for its greater compression modulus. It also uses more latex in the foam (a higher ratio of rubber to air) and is denser. Dunlop has a different "feel" and performance than Talalay and is less lively or springy but ultimately your own experience is really the only way to know which one you prefer with any certainty. Some people would notice more of a difference than others but generally you will "feel" more of the upper layers than the deeper layers ... at least when you first lie on a mattress. This is why I recommend that

What is your opinion on a 100% Dunlop mattress compared to Talalay?


Talalay and Dunlop have often been compared to angel food cake vs pound cake. Talalay has a more consistent and even and stronger cell structure because even though there is less latex overall ... the cell walls or "struts" are thicker and more consistent. There is a little more about the differences in "feel" between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 linked above.

Are there other companies who make a similar customizable style in either Dunlop or Talalay?


These component systems are/have been quite popular for many years, and a quick glance at the members of the site will show that many of them offer such component style systems, as well as other mattress companies who are not site members here. Depending on the manufacturer/retailer these systems can be offered in Talalay or Dunlop only or a combination of both. As you already discovered we have a few Canadian Trusted members who offer All latex high quality great value component style systems

You already are aware and engaged in a conversation with one of our Canadian Experts The Mattress & Sleep Company who is closer to your location and who have all latex Talalay mattress options that you can try.
Memory Foam Comfort that you mentioned with their Presto customizable organic (Dunlop) mattresses another of our Expert Members of the site .
Dormio Organic Beds yet another one of our Expert manufacturers of the site have also a wide range of customizable “head to toe” latex mattresses and ship nationwide.
I’d suggest that you call

- I'm also curious about the pros and cons of Talalay blends that contain 30% natural latex and balance is synthetic.


Synthetic Latex - Styrene-Butadiene rubber (SBR) Latex that is a man-made molecular equivalent of natural rubber Latex (developed during WWII when natural rubber Latex became scarce). Blended Latex is a proprietary blend of natural and synthetic Latex (e.g. 30/70). Latex is blended to optimize the desired attributes of Latex foam rubber for its given manufacturing process and end product. It is less expensive than natural rubber and it is more consistent and durable. There is more about 100% natural and blended Talalay in post #2 here . It is also more difficult to work with to make a consistent firmness so the natural Talalay can be made softer than most Dunlop (except continuous pour Dunlop) but not as soft as blended Talalay. The two different versions of Talalay are very similar in feel and are lighter and more "lively" than Dunlop.

My best suggestion at this point is to determine if you like the feel of Dunlop or of Talalay by visiting one of the stores TAMASC mentioned and to place a few calls along the way or engage some of tour experts on the forum as they would be the best to answer many of the questions that you may have as they are much more familiar with their own mattress designs and materials than anyone else and they can use the information you provide about you and your partner's body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your in-home or local testing to make suggestions based on the "averages" of other customers that may be similar to you. Of course, I'd keep an eye on the options you have available and your ability to exchange layers or the mattress itself or use the other forms of fine-tuning the mattress after your purchase or the return policy may also be an important part of your personal value equation or to offset the risk that can go with any online purchase.

Based on the thought you are putting into this and the care you are taking with all the research you are doing I think you will certainly end up choosing between some great options.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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30 Jul 2018 14:21 #28 by Q8canuck

Thank you for your helpful comments....more information to digest and still more homework to be done!

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31 Jul 2018 22:09 #29 by Phoenix

Hi Q8canuck

You are welcome! :) ... glad to be of help.

One step at a time is the most effective way to find "the perfect mattress” for you and has by far the highest chance of success ... and of course, for any other questions you may have along the way I or any of the Expert members of the site will stand by to help.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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01 Sep 2018 19:54 #30 by zzipp

I am in the market for a natural latex mattress. Because of price points, I am considering a hybrid of L&P inner springs plus latex comfort layer. I keep hearing a lot about the Avocado mattress, but wonder if other companies that partner w TMU make something similar at a comparable price. Any thoughts? I would also be interested in your experience w this type of hybrid vs 100% latex.

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