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Mattress comfort layers - latex

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02 Sep 2018 16:27 #31 by Phoenix
Hi zzipp,

Welcome to our Mattress Forum ! :)

I keep hearing a lot about the Avocado mattress, but wonder if other companies that partner w TMU make something similar at a comparable price


AG mattress has been discussed on TMU in this thread here or this topic here , just make sure to read through the later posts as their specs have changed. Some of our trusted members that carry latex hybrid and ship nationally. (There may be shipping costs associated with purchasing innerspring mattresses)
Arizona Premium Mattress
Christeli
Flexus Comfort ships from CA
Magic Sleeper
[url=http://http://bit.ly/TMULumaHome]Luma Sleep [/url]
My Green Mattress
Mattress To Go carries better quality value national brands.
Nest Bedding national
Quality Sleep Shop
Texas Mattress Makers ships from TX
Urban Natural
Bedmasters ships from FL
Beloit ships from IL

I'd keep in mind that in general there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to make specific mattress recommendations for someone else based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" (see post #2 here ).

I would also be interested in your experience w this type of hybrid vs 100% latex.


Both innerspring and a firmer latex core can be used as a support layer and each has very "different" characteristics but the most important differences are the ones you can feel and that you personally prefer. Both can be softer or firmer depending design so a pocket coil could be firmer than a latex core or the other way around they could be zoned or not all depending on the specifics of the components you are comparing. There is more about this in [url=https://www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-forum/general-mattresses/4715-latex-over-pocket-coil-mattress-question.html#4761}post #10 here[/url] and more detailed information about innersprings vs latex support cores in post #2 here and more about the different types and blends of latex in this article and in post #6 here or post #29 here There are too many differences between them that it is really hard to answer these types of "apples to oranges" questions in any meaningful way other than through general comparisons that may not represent the differences between two specific mattresses.

While it's not possible to make specific suggestions because of all the many variables involved that are unique to each person and your own experience is the only way to know for certain whether any mattress/topper combination will be a good "match" for you in terms of PPP, Because of the uncertainty involved with purchasing an online mattress where you can't test it in person ... a good exchange/return policy can also reduce the risk so I would make sure you are comfortable with the options you have available after a purchase to exchange or return and any costs involved just in case your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for.

I don't know howm much you've read since you found us but I'd make sure to start with the  tutorial post here  which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines you will need to make the best possible choices ... and know how and why to avoid the worst ones where you aren't able to find out the quality of the materials inside it.

Phoenix

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04 Dec 2018 18:21 #32 by mattresshow
First, thanks for everything. I've been doing endless research the last several weeks and I think I've mostly made a decision.

The Yankee Mattress / Custom Mattress Makers mattress (Cocoa) just seems like an unbeatable value from a reliable, quality, but lesser known company.

custommattressmakers.com/collections/mat...products/cocoa-latex

My concern, however, is that the comfort layer / 2" of latex just simply isn't "enough".

I weigh about 225 and prefer a plush mattress. I'm a strict side sleeper. Will I sink in? Will I dig into the coils? Why does everyone else almost universally use 3" of latex and they use 2"?

I think that's all for now. Thanks again.

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05 Dec 2018 23:53 - 06 Dec 2018 00:05 #33 by Phoenix
Hi mattresshow.

You are one of the lucky ones that managed to make it through and post... while we were dealing with the wave of spamming attacks using scripts that targeted our site in the last week or so.

So I bid you a hearty ... Welcome to our Mattress Forum ! :)

My concern, however, is that the comfort layer / 2" of latex just simply isn't "enough". I weigh about 225 and prefer a plush mattress. I'm a strict side sleeper. Will I sink in? Will I dig into the coils? Why does everyone else almost universally use 3" of latex and they use 2"?


All the layers and components of a mattress work together and affect each other and they also interact differently with each sleeper (which is why finding the right fit can be quite complex) The 2" of latex over the Leggett Quantum Edge Bolsa coil system is a solid design. especially for side sleepers and could be suitable for someone looking for a softer feel as you do. The combo of 2” latex and softer 15-gauge coils will work together and will adapt making it suitable for a certain range of comfort/support needs and preferences. As you noticed many other designs use 3" comfort layer but place it on top of a firmer coil system like the combi-zone Quantum Edge.

Without knowing your height, or body shape, it is difficult to determine if the Cocoa-latex mattress design is right for you. Generally speaking, it is a fairly plush sleeping system; and depending upon your BMI and body type the only concern I’d have is that the coil unit may be allowing you to sink-in to the point where spinal alignment is not ideal this is why I'd make sure to call them and ask for their recommendation as it relates to you. Custom Mattress Makers is one of our manufacturing Trusted Members of the site which means that I think highly of them and consider them to compete well with the best in the industry in terms of knowledge, service, and value. It's usually far more effective to let a knowledgeable manufacturer make these types of recommendations rather than try to figure them out yourself because they have the long-term experience and customer database that is connected to their specific mattresses to be able to translate some very complex and interactive "specs" into meaningful information that most consumers can understand without being overwhelmed.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 06 Dec 2018 00:05 by Phoenix.

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07 Dec 2018 19:32 #34 by Q8canuck
Hello Phoenix,
Since my last post we've bit the bullet and purchased a split King latex mattress with 3 layers on each side. We are using our original king base with a piece of plywood on top to support the latex mattress, and have added a quilted mattress protector to give a little more softness. We've been sleeping on our new mattress for a month.
My side has a Dunlop Firm, Talalay Medium and Tallalay Soft composition.
Hubby's side has Dunlop Firm, Dunlop Medium and Tallaly Soft compostion.
He seems to be sleeping well and not interested in making any adjustments.
However, I am waking with sore shoulders and hips....indicating issues with the support layers. No problems with comfort when I get into bed....just in the mornings.
I'd like to know what changes would be most helpful, since I can make layer changes at a reasonable cost from our seller for up to 90 days. Although our original plan was to switch our own layers around to find the best arrangement....with only 6 layers and 2 duplicates, we don't have a lot of options. It seems my hubby would have to endure 2 layers of firm while I tested his medium Dunlop on my side....he doesn't think this is a good idea.
I'm mostly a side sleeper and occasionally stomach....in the 'generous' size category .(BMI 30).
So.....should I try a different bottom layer, or middle layer, and what should I try? Would a Dunlop Medium on the bottom make any difference (instead of Firm), or should I focus on the middle layer and try a Dunlop Soft instead of the current Talalay medium?
As always, I appreciate your advice and help in navigating the ins and outs of finding perfect rest.

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08 Dec 2018 16:11 #35 by Phoenix
Hi Q8canuck.

I just noticed that your previous post got buried in the by another discussion in progress :oops: . I deleted the duplication and responded here.

Glad to hear that your “hubby” is sleeping well on the new mattress ... Congratulations on your new mattress purchase :) ... it looks like your side needs a bit of fine-tuning and it's good that you had the foresight to order from a manufacturer that has good exchange policies.

However, I am waking with sore shoulders and hips....indicating issues with the support layers. No problems with comfort when I get into bed....just in the mornings. I'd like to know what changes would be most helpful, since I can make layer changes at a reasonable cost from our seller for up to 90 days..
It seems my hubby would have to endure 2 layers of firm while I tested his medium Dunlop on my side....he doesn't think this is a good idea…..
Would a Dunlop Medium on the bottom make any difference (instead of Firm),


I am not sure I understand correctly the configuration you have in mind but I tend to agree with your husband that the layering arrangement you mentioned may not work in your case. M/M/S on your side (from bottom to top) wouldn’t be adding the extra support that you seem to desire but instead would have just the opposite effect so I’d be concerned about your spinal alignment and support …. also on your husband’s side an F/F/S configuration would most likely make it too firm for his needs as well.

He seems to be sleeping well and not interested in making any adjustments.
However, I am waking with sore shoulders and hips.... indicating issues with the support layers. No problems with comfort when I get into bed.... just in the mornings.


As mentioned above there are some mixed messages in your descriptions regarding your support/comfort needs and you’d want to determine if it is the lack of support, comfort or both that causes the shoulder and hip soreness. Your initial assessment of adding more support seems to be pointing in the general direction as typically a more “generous” weight range sleeper would need both firmer base layers and firmer comfort layers to make sure the mattress keeps them in good alignment in all the sleeping positions. You may wish to revisit the info about primary or "deep" support and secondary or "surface" support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the "roles" of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here which may be helpful in clarifying the difference between "support" and "pressure relief" and "feel" as you go through this identification process.

Typically shoulder and arm issues can come from a mattress that is too firm and puts direct pressure on the shoulders, the shoulder blades, or on the back muscles and can also cause soreness or numbness and tingling in the arms or can often come from postural issues as well. There is some much more detailed information on shoulder and arm issues in posts #2 and #3 here and I’d make sure to pinpoint the type of comfort/support (primary/secondary) issues that may contribute to your soreness and also assess the pillow you are using as this can be a big contributor as well. Hip issues, for side sleepers especially, can be caused by a comfort layer that is too firm or too thin where you can feel the firmness of either the sleeping surface itself or the support layers "through" the comfort layers. These are pressure point issues. In some cases though another reason for hip pain may be a mattress that is too soft which can cause your hips to be out of their neutral alignment and sink down too far which can hyperextend the hip joint and can lead to a burning feeling or pain from joints, muscles, and ligaments that are stretched beyond their neutral alignment. This would more of an alignment issue except instead of spinal alignment it's about joint alignment. I’d also make sure to check the pillow issue and verify that the bed has good central support and if it is not sagging under the weight of the mattress and the people sleeping on it.

You may also wish to peruse some of the forum posts and threads about mattresses and higher weights and a forum title search on heavy (you can just click this) will bring up many of them. Some examples include post #2 here and post #2 here and this thread

Of course, your first best source of guidance is always coming from the manufacturer/retailer of your mattresses who can give you suggestions for their layering designs based on averages of other customers that are similar to you, but feel free to add your thoughts and clarify some of the issues I mentioned above and I’ll do my best to assist you.

Phoenix

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13 Dec 2018 08:38 #36 by sparky
Hi - I think from what I read about posting new questions this thread seems like an ok place to start mine but if I'm hijacking I apologize!

I'll TRY to be concise but I think the backstory is important for getting any guidance. Sorry if it's too much!

My husband (5'10, 185 lbs, 26.5 BMI) and I (5'5", 110 lbs, 18.3 BMI) have had (and loved) a king-sized tempurpedic for 15 years. I didn't have any idea it was that old until I started having leg and hip discomfort in my sleep recently.

When that started I realized the top memory foam layer was pretty mashed. Each of us had a little furrow we were sleeping in. I didn't think that was necessarily a bad thing - I liked my furrow! When the discomfort started to be a nightly thing I first thought it must be from pressure on my hip but after doing research here (lots of great info here!) and elsewhere I think it's more likely misalignment from my pelvis sinking too low. I had that same sensation years ago sleeping for a couple of weeks on a soft, soft sofa.

I thought we'd just get another tempurpedic since we had really enjoyed it and at 15 years I think we more than got our money's worth. (No indentations show when we're not on it so the warranty wouldn't apply). Then I saw the price point they're selling tempurpedics at now and it made me start looking at other options and I got interested in latex.

As an experiment we turned our current mattress over. The bottom layer of our tempurpedic is a very firm foam (polyfoam?) but it has a little give and we were able to sleep on it for a few nights. Although the firmness wasn't especially comfortable it wasn't HORRIBLE and the pain in my legs/hip went away. I think that confirmed that discomfort's from sagging down into the old memory foam. I did feel pressure-point discomfort on my hips and had to switch from side to side all night long but the other more unpleasant feeling was gone.

I thought we might be able to get away with just ordering a latex topper for the upside-down tempurpedic. So after reading a lot of info here I went with a 3" natural talalay in soft from Sleep EZ. (I believe their soft is 19-21 ILD.)

We got it this week and have had only 2 nights on it. When laying on it it's very comfortable and my husband is fine. But I think I'm sinking in too much. It almost feels the same or softer than the memory foam felt. I haven't had the same pain at this point but my legs definitely feel a little something. I don't know if it's my imagination since I'm obsessing over how it feels. So I plan to keep trying it for a while longer and maybe I'll get used to it. I do tend to be the princess and the pea-ish so I'm worried that I'm never going to be able to find something perfect. Although the tempurpedic worked great for me so maybe we'll end up ultimately getting another one -- but after learning more about them I'd rather not.

As far as options I thought I'd ask now for any thoughts you might have if I don't get used to it. Mailing it back to Arizona (we're in Delaware) would be very expensive. I wondered if it continues to be 'not perfect' what the best bet is. Exchange it for something firmer? That seems like we'd just be just rolling the dice again and have no real idea how firm to go. And ordering and sending back is way too expensive to do more than once.

Or I wondered if putting a mattress pad on it -- somewhat thick -- might reduce the sinking-in aspect of the latex. Possibly a wool one? Although a good king size mattress pad isn't cheap either so I don't want to keep spending money especially on something non-returnable.

From reading about people designing beds it seems like a 3" soft talalay layer on top isn't unheard of. And since I'm somewhat on the lighter end of the spectrum it doesn't seem like I'd be sinking in so much that's I'd be out of alignment more than other people who have a soft top layer of latex and no complaints. I'm really puzzled at this point. I thought for sure the 3" topper was going to be the perfect solution.

Does anyone having any thoughts? Thank you in advance! And thank you also, Phoenix, for all of the amazing work you've done on this forum. It's really an incredible resource.

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13 Dec 2018 19:54 - 13 Dec 2018 20:47 #37 by Phoenix
Hi sparky.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum ! :)

Thank you for all the background information you provided which can certainly make it simpler to offer input and also thanks for your kind comments … I appreciate it!

When that started I realized the top memory foam layer was pretty mashed. Each of us had a little furrow we were sleeping in. I didn't think that was necessarily a bad thing - I liked my furrow! When the discomfort started to be a nightly thing I first thought it must be from pressure on my hip but after doing research here (lots of great info here!) and elsewhere I think it's more likely misalignment from my pelvis sinking too low.


It’s always nice when people coming here go through a few of the mattress basics and track down the possible cause of the “symptoms” they are experiencing … what you’ve described is certainly typical for the aging and breakdown of foams within a mattress which usually leads to sagging, postural issues, and the type of pains that you are describing.

As an experiment we turned our current mattress over. The bottom layer of our tempurpedic is a very firm foam (polyfoam?) but it has a little give and we were able to sleep on it for a few nights. Although the firmness wasn't especially comfortable it wasn't HORRIBLE and the pain in my legs/hip went away. I think that confirmed that discomfort's from sagging down into the old memory foam.


This is certainly a creative approach that can buy you sometime before needing to replace your current mattress. You did not mention this but I’m assuming that you've already checked the support system under your bed to rule out any bending or sagging under the weight of the mattress and the people sleeping on it. Generally, foams wear out from the top down as the upper layers of a mattress are subject to more compression than the lower layers. While the bottom polyfoam (Yes! to your "?" :)) layer of the mattress would be in better shape than the top comfort layers I’d keep in mind that the Base layer(s) in all the Tempur collections from more than a decade ago used AirFlow System of convoluted foam which in theory helps the layers to breathe but in practice with a 15 year old mattress even if you get the comfort/support just right for you …. the flipping of your mattress may somehow compromise the structural and support integrity you need for proper alignment. The new “configuration” with the firm 4” (which they used for many of their beds at the time) on top of the "mushed" memory foam can contribute to collapsing and bending to a certain extent of the poly layer into the “furrow” created by the foam breakdown of the comfort layers. (The degree depends on many factors such as the polyfoam thickness and age, convolution dimensions: pinnacle base thickness and height, IFD and of course density)

We got it this week and have had only 2 nights on it. When laying on it it's very comfortable and my husband is fine. But I think I'm sinking in too much. It almost feels the same or softer than the memory foam felt. I haven't had the same pain at this point but my legs definitely feel a little something. I don't know if it's my imagination since I'm obsessing over how it feels. So I plan to keep trying it for a while longer and maybe I'll get used to it. I do tend to be the princess and the pea-ish so I'm worried that I'm never going to be able to find something perfect.


I don’t know which Tempur model you own but it would be interesting to open the zipper and see if the comfort layer can be removed and replaced with the 3” of latex from Sleep EZ .. this way you’ll get a few more data points but I’d certainly give the now new set up a little longer to allow your body to go through the adjustment period before you decide the type of changes you may need based on your body’s feedback.

You are very light which means that depending on your primary sleeping position you won't sink in as far into a foam material as people who are heavier and layer thickness also plays a role in the design of a sleeping system that is the most suitable for you. You may need to adjust the "standard" layer thickness -/+ an inch or so to sink in just enough to relieve pressure without allowing the heavier hips to sink in too far. Only working with softness options instead of thickness options may not be enough for some people who are either more sensitive, smaller (where changes can have a bigger proportional effect relative to the body) or have a body type and weight distribution that is outside the "averages”. You can read more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here but this depends more on the specific construction and combination of materials in the mattress and on how well your testing or personal experience indicates the mattress "as a whole" matches your specific needs and preferences in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) than it does on just the thickness itself.

The balance between "allowing" the shoulders and hips to sink in enough to relieve pressure and at the same time "stopping" the pelvis from sinking in too far and affecting spinal alignment is part of the art and science of all mattress construction this is why I’d suggest that you work closely with Sleep EZ as they have an excellent track record of finding great “out-of-the box solutions” that involve using their products in combination with other products and making recommendations for any particular needs. As you can see this can get quite complex but again the three specifications of a foam material that control most of the pressure relief (along with layer thickness) are ILD/IFD, compression modulus, and point elasticity (and temperature sensitivity with memory foam) which together with the thickness of the softer layers create the pressure relieving "cradle" and needs to be balanced against it's "opposite" which is support and alignment.

I'm looking forward to finding out what a few more nights of sleep on the new set up will bring ... and of course any additional comments or questions you may have along the way that I or any of the Expert members of the site can help with.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 13 Dec 2018 20:47 by Phoenix.

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14 Dec 2018 13:53 - 14 Dec 2018 13:55 #38 by sparky
Thank you very much for your reply, Phoenix.

I see your point about the flipped mattress possibly having sagging issues from the polyfoam now collapsing into the 'spaces' we've created in the memory foam - the mushed furrows. So for that reason I do only consider this a short-term fix and don't want to spend too much money on the experiment before we give up and try to find a new mattress.

I'll definitely give it more time for my body (and mind!) to adjust but last night I slept better than the previous nights. I'm hopeful.

If I decide to try to make any change I'll check with Sleep EZ for their recommendation. When I talked to them originally they thought 3" was right because of the very firm surface it would be on. I guess 2" would allow us (more so my heavier husband I assume) to bottom out. So probably it would be an exchange for a firmer density -- but maybe there are other options that they'd suggest.

In the meantime can you give me your opinion on the idea of a mattress pad if I want to dampen some of the squishiness of the latex rather than switching to a firmer density? I was looking at posts on wool fleece versions but maybe that really defeats the purpose of the latex or cancels out too much of its plushness. And once it compresses it might even seem too firm at pressure points?

Thank you again for your very valuable guidance!
Last edit: 14 Dec 2018 13:55 by sparky. Reason: typo :/

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15 Dec 2018 15:27 #39 by Phoenix
Hi sparky.

Thanks for your latest update …. I am glad to hear that your sleep is improving :)

In the meantime can you give me your opinion on the idea of a mattress pad if I want to dampen some of the squishiness of the latex rather than switching to a firmer density?


You are correct that a mattress pad or even a tighter protector …. especially a wool one that will compress a bit more with use can have the effect you are seeking. Most of the wool pads and protectors have stretchy corners or sides so they won't bunch up while sleeping, but you can look for a tight pad/protector that wraps around all sides of your mattress to add a bit of extra stiffness. Thicker wool layers that are initially soft (and quite frankly nicer) will tend to compress and affect the feel of the layers underneath them over time more than thin ones .… Post #10 here has more information about mattress pads, protectors and the difference between them. Halfway through post #89 here there’s more about the pros and cons of different types of mattress protectors for those who want (or don’t) to affect the feel and performance of their mattress. You may wish to check out some of our members here who have wool pads/protectors and can also have a look at different types of mattress protectors here and here .

I hope this is helpful and I'm looking forward to any ongoing updates you have the chance to share.

Phoenix

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20 Dec 2018 21:08 #40 by Demill1866
When one refers to blended talalay latex, what does that actually mean?

David

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