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base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 13 May 2013 15:08 #1

Hi. Could someone provide information about the density and type of foam used in the base of the Ultimate Dreams Gel 13" mattress? Is it the same foam that is used in the bases of the Brooklyn Bedding memory foam units?
Thanks,
Todd

Ok quick edit: Just found out that it is a 2.35lb foam in the 13" Dreamfoam Gel, whereas it is 2.17lb Omalon foam in the Brooklyn Bedding offerings. The rep at Brooklyn Bedding said the 2.17lb Omalon foam is more durable. I have no idea what Omalon foam is. Should I believe the claim that it is more durable?

Thanks.

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Last edit: by toddking2.

base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 13 May 2013 16:43 #2

Hi toddking,

These types of questions are usually best asked of the source which is the manufacturer themselves but I think that post #2 here and post #6 here should be helpful.

In their Brooklyn Bedding mattresses (and I would also confirm this with them) ... the lower of the three models in their exchangeable layer lineup also uses 1.5 lb base foam and the top two models use a higher quality 2.17 lb Omalon polyfoam.

Ok quick edit: Just found out that it is a 2.35lb foam in the 13" Dreamfoam Gel, whereas it is 2.17lb Omalon foam in the Brooklyn Bedding offerings. The rep at Brooklyn Bedding said the 2.17lb Omalon foam is more durable. I have no idea what Omalon foam is. Should I believe the claim that it is more durable?


Density is the primary factor in durability but there are also other factors which have a lesser effect which includes the firmness of the foam, the cell structure, the chemicals or ingredients used in manufacturing, any convoluting or surface modifications, and the foam above and below a layer. Omalon is a polyurethane foam that comes in a range of densities and is higher performance than conventional foams. While density is still a primary durability factor ... the other durability factors in the Omalon would be superior and it is also a higher quality and performance foam (outside of just durability) even though it has a lower density.

Perhaps more important than all of this is that the support layers are not normally the weak link of a mattress anyway because they are subject to less stress than the upper layers which are the most important in terms of the durability of the mattress.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 13 May 2013 17:40 #3

Thanks. I was comparing Aloe Adele vs. Ultimate Dreams Gel 13". Here are the differences:

1. The latter is ~$450 cheaper;
2. The former has 3" latex in the cushion layer, whereas the latter has 2" 5lb memory foam (both also include 3" 4lb gel foam);
3. The former has the 2.17lb Omalon core, whereas the latter has the 2.35lb high density foam core.
4. The former has an aloe/cotton cover, whatever that means.

Not caring much about the cover, and given that both cores seem pretty adequate, the primary difference between the mattresses seems to be the 2" of 5lb memory foam in the Ultimate Dreams Gel vs. the 3" of latex in the BB. Is the latex really that much better, for the $450 difference? I'm not entirely convinced.

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base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 13 May 2013 22:10 #4

Hi toddking2,

3. The former has the 2.17lb Omalon core, whereas the latter has the 2.35lb high density foam core.


Just to make a point of this this because you've mentioned it twice ... the Ultimate Dreams 13" gel memory foam uses 1.5 lb base foam ... not 2.35 lb base foam.

Not caring much about the cover, and given that both cores seem pretty adequate, the primary difference between the mattresses seems to be the 2" of 5lb memory foam in the Ultimate Dreams Gel vs. the 3" of latex in the BB. Is the latex really that much better, for the $450 difference? I'm not entirely convinced.


The cover viscose/cotton blend (bamboo for example is a similar viscose fabric) includes wool in the quilting and also has a separate section for the top two layers which is more costly than the cover used in the 13" Ultimate Dreams, the base foam is higher density in the Aloe Adele, The construction is different (with the Aloe Adele you can exchange or re-arrange the two top layers if necessary for fine tuning) and the latex in the Adele is both more costly and thicker than the 5 lb memory foam layer.

Of course your own personal value equation and the features and options that are most important to you may be different from someone else so from this perspective you may prefer one over another for reasons that are more important to you and less important for someone else.

Either one would make a great "value" choice but they are also quite different in what they offer.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 14 May 2013 07:40 #5

Oh ok, thanks for clarifying re: the base foam.

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base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 14 May 2013 08:28 #6

Actually here is the source of my uncertainty re: the base foam. This post refers to the use of a 2.35lb foam in the base of an Ultimate Dream mattress. The post concerns the Ultimate Dreams Latex mattress. Are you telling me that they use a different base foam (2.35lb vs. 1.5lb) in the latex vs. the gel Ultimate Dreams mattresses?
Thanks

www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-forum/general-mattresses/4532-local-latex-and-ultimate-dreams-latex.html

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base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 14 May 2013 13:52 #7

Hi toddking2,

Are you telling me that they use a different base foam (2.35lb vs. 1.5lb) in the latex vs. the gel Ultimate Dreams mattresses?


Yes they are different densities.

Phoenix
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base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 14 May 2013 14:24 #8

Wow thanks for clarifying. The Amazon page for the Ultimate Dreams Gel 13" is ambiguous in regard to the specs for the base foam. In the interests on full disclosure, DreamFoam (Brooklyn Bedding) really ought to disclose that it is 1.5lb foam in this mattress. They go out of their way, after all, to disclose the specs of the better base foam in the Ultimate Dreams Latex mattress.

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base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 14 May 2013 17:55 #9

Hi toddking,

I think that you may be forgetting that this forum has a different level of knowledge, scrutiny, and perhaps expectations than 99% of the industry as a whole. If a manufacturer only caters to the level of educated consumers that you would find here they could easily cause themselves harm in the larger marketplace which is where the majority of their sales come from.

Just to give you one example... Tempurpedic used to use 2.2 lb or higher polyfoam in their base layer and also published the density of their memory foams. They have been doing their best to remove references to their specs on the internet for quite some time now though because they are using different materials and there is some strong evidence that they are now using 1.5 lb polyfoam in at least some their base layers (and not just in their low end Simplicity mattresses). They are "assuming" that consumers will "assume" that the specs are the same as when they were listed or more easily available (and still published in many places on the internet). The difference is that if you ask them about it (which all informed consumers should be doing with every mattress they are considering) then you won't be able to find out what they are currently using because they won't disclose it. The "assumption" that Tempurpedic uses all high quality materials works in their favor and against more transparent manufacturers. There was also a time where most of the larger manufacturers used better materials than they currently do and they also take advantage of the fact that not disclosing specs works in their favor (which it usually does outside of the marketplace of more educated consumers that know better).

The information I posted about the density of their foam in both of the links I provided earlier came from Brooklyn Bedding themselves who are transparent about the materials they use and don't hesitate to provide it. In the large majority of the population ... these specs mean absolutely nothing or are interpreted simplistically which is why consumers so easily buy poor quality/value mattresses based on "stories" instead of "information" without ever knowing the real quality of what they have purchased. There are also many consumers that believe that specs are a simple black and white matter of comparing density numbers without taking into account the design of the mattress or the other materials. They are important but not everything. In many cases listing specs can result in lower sales of mattresses that are actually higher quality and better value. Manufacturers are keenly aware of the risks they take when they are transparent and it takes some courage for smaller manufacturers to go in this direction in the first place where every small omission or error is spotlighted rather than being congratulated by disclosing everything that a consumer asks to the best of their ability. Full disclosure doesn't always mean putting everything that is available on a website which would overwhelm most consumers in its detail and complexity.

I personally am grateful that there are some high quality manufacturers who so willingly disclose this information whenever they are asked (and every consumer should be asking IMO) but I also understand that they can harm themselves by posting every single spec of every mattress they produce right down to the percentage of every fiber in their covers. If they post every spec about everything they do as they do it (because specs will also change over time as mattresses or circumstances change) then in many if not most cases they would be providing information that most consumers would translate much too simplistically thinking they knew what they meant. Sometimes a little bit of knowledge can be "dangerous" as the saying goes.

In many cases consumers would make buying decisions based on specs that they know nothing about (or the "wrong" specs) or where the differences they think they see are meaningless or not particularly relevant. Small manufacturers need to sell mattresses to the broader market to survive and they are in competition with manufacturers who don't provide any specs at all and sell the majority of the mattresses bought in the US and Canada (and around the western world). These manufacturers can create a story that "my mattress is better than yours" without ever having to validate their claims ... and the worst part is that in the large majority of cases consumers will believe the story over the facts that are available. Stories often have more power than facts or meaningful information in our culture.

So in the end ... it's up to each individual consumer to educate themselves and ask about any missing information on a website that they need to make informed decisions. Each manufacturer also needs to decide on the level of disclosure they make available on their website and/or provide to consumers that ask. Transparency doesn't always imply (at least to me) that everything is available to every consumer that is browsing their site. Until consumers learn to ask ... nothing in the industry will change because they will continue to buy the majority of mattresses from manufacturers who refuse to disclose any meaningful information at all outside of marketing copy.

I believe that no real changes in the industry will happen until the only real impetus for change ... which is consumers ... begin to ask meaningful questions, not make assumptions about anything, and only purchase mattresses where the answers to their questions are available ... whether they are listed on a website or not. I don't think I have seen a single manufacturer where every spec of all of their mattresses is listed on their site or that keeps every spec up to date in real time as they make any changes they need to make in the face of rising costs and the ongoing search to find better ways to provide value or maintain pricing.

So I understand that it would be great if every manufacturer listed every detailed spec for every mattress. In real life though ... that's not likely to happen for now and the best approach is always for consumers to learn enough to know to ask for any missing information and for manufacturers to willingly provide it for those who understand its importance. Whether it's on a website is far less relevant than the ability to get it on request just by asking.

Phoenix
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base foam in Ultimate Dreams Gel 14 May 2013 18:22 #10

Wow great essay. Thanks!

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