mattressunderground logo
×
Welcome to The Mattress Underground FORUM! :cheer:
The first place to start your research is the Mattress Shopping Tutorial linked in the top right corner.
Select the Search Forum tab above to gain access to answers to many mattress related questions.
Select the Ask An Expert tab above to reach out to any of our Expert Members for guidance and advice.

Re: All Latex bed = motion / partner disturbance

More
18 Nov 2011 16:46 #1 by jbedshopper
Hi Phoenix,

Thanks again for this amazing site and all your help here. I took your advice and contacted the local LA dealer regarding (Henry @ Flexus) an all latex cal king. We worked everything out and he said he called you to confirm some of the ideas. I described to him that we are light weighted side sleepers and needed to change from our pillowtop box spring due to ‘partner disturbance’ everything night and morning – the bed was just too bouncy. Together we all came up with a Natural Comfort 9” latex mattress 6” 31 ILD Dunlop Base Core + 3” 22-24 ILD Natural Talay Comfort layer… wow that is a long product name. :S

So the good news is that the bed feels great… like a water bed perhaps. The bad news is that like a water bed the entire bed wobbles and ripples literally when we are simply speaking to each other! So now we have our most expensive mattress ever and the ‘partner disturbance’ is more pronounced than even before. Do you think the bed could have been built differently to address this top priority of ours? Or is it possible to split a cal king in two parts as only that will really solve the issue? Would that cost much more or less? We are concerned here as I don’t know what if any exchange policy there is and we were planning to have the bed for 10 years or something naturally. But after a just a few nights we have woken each other up many times already.

Please help us sleep, Phoenix! Thank you -

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
18 Nov 2011 19:16 - 18 Nov 2011 19:17 #2 by Phoenix
Hi Jbedshopper,

Latex is among the least motion transferring of materials second only to memory foam. This is because it is what is called "point elastic" meaning that a local area can be compressed without affecting the areas around it. Memory foam is also point elastic but it also absorbs energy (has high hysteresis) while latex returns energy. This is why movement is easier on a latex mattress and why it feels closer to an innerspring feel (in its liveliness) than memory foam which has a more "dead" feeling.

If there is motion transfer in a latex mattress ... then it is usually coming from what is either under or over the latex. The first place I would look at is what is under it.

Can you tell me what the mattress is sitting on from the "floor" upwards?

Putting the mattress directly on the floor will also help confirm where the motion transference is coming from. I am guessing there is some "rocking" or movement coming from what the mattress is sitting on.

Phoenix

Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last edit: 18 Nov 2011 19:17 by Phoenix.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Nov 2011 16:07 #3 by jbedshopper
well yes we do now have an unusual setup under the new mattress. Previously we had the Sealy box springs (looks like two twin sized equaling a cal king) plus the pillowtop mattress itself measured 15". Realizing that the new latex mattress was only 9" we worked out with Flexus adding another set of box springs which they latched together with a little metal hook and latch set at the head and foot areas so that the box springs wouldn't drift apart. So now we have the wooden bed frame, two sets of box springs (four total units), and the latex mattress. On top we have just sheets.

Anyhow it certainly doesn't seem like the extreme motion vibrations are coming from below but perhaps like the top of a latter everything is amplified at the apex as you suggest. Hmm... My wife suggested we abandon the box springs and just flip the old pillowtop mattress over and seat it underneath the new latex bed! I hope you are correct that the expensive latex component is not at fault as we keep waking in the mid and early hours since the motions are so pronounced!

Thanks as always for your advice.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Nov 2011 19:01 #4 by Phoenix
Hi jbedshopper,

I think your description has certainly identified the problem. A latex mattress needs a firm non flexing and solid foundation.

As you mentioned ... any motion of the base will be amplified on top and if the Sealy "boxspring" is designed for use under an innerspring mattress (has flex in it) it would certainly not be a solid base. If you put a solid boxspring on top of this it may well cause even more problems.

A "flipped" mattress would also not be suitable for use under a latex mattress because it is also designed to flex rather than create a supportive surface.

I can assure you that because of its point elasticity, latex is not inherently a "motion transferring" material but for different reasons than memory foam and if there is an issue that is as obvious as yours ... it is coming either from what is above the latex or what is below it (and in your case it seems clear to me that what is below it is the cause).

If you need to raise the height of your mattress ... then something very solid, flat, and unyielding under the box spring is necessary.

Phoenix

Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Nov 2011 16:49 #5 by jbedshopper
Happy Holidays, Phoenix -

We tried as you said and removed the extra set of Sealy supports and now have a low bed in the frame with just the "high quality" supports from Flexus that came to match the all latex bed. The situation seems improved though sadly it is still a "wiggle bed" and likely worse than the pillow top bed we replaced due to partner disturbance. While the support and comfort are basically fine, we are nevertheless sad having gone to so much expense and effort with no real improvement when it comes to not waking each other up too often when we turn over or come and go at different times. We surely don’t miss the toxic memory foam as a whole yet the motion isolation on that mattress was actually quite excellent.

Spoke with Flexus last week about getting a taller support system but this may make motions even worse again. ?

Regards,

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
28 Nov 2011 18:18 - 28 Nov 2011 18:28 #6 by Phoenix
Hi jbedshopper,

Since latex is not what the vast majority of people would call a motion transferring material, then the remaining causes of your excess motion could be the bed frame, the foundation, or the interface between the two (rocking because one surface is not completely flat). While memory foam is better at motion isolation because it actually absorbs energy while latex "stores" energy, its point elasticity gives it the ability to compress locally with little effect on the larger surface which means that the motion transfer is very small compared to other materials and foams. This is one of its "selling points". Latex is also heavy so any lack of support in the bedframe itself could also be coming to light.

If you put the mattress on the floor you will be able to see how latex reacts on a perfectly still and solid surface. Then putting the mattress on the foundation on the floor (and confirming there is no movement in the foundation) would be the next step. This will help you isolate where the movement is coming from.

A taller foundation that is flat, strong, and solid would not by itself create a problem but this would not remove any problems that came from other parts of your support system or the "interface" between them.

Phoenix

Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last edit: 28 Nov 2011 18:28 by Phoenix.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Nov 2011 15:06 #7 by jbedshopper
Phoenix -

Thank you again for your comments which I read thoroughly yesterday and accepted. Now please hear from me ‘the story of last night’…

Because there is really no space in the bedroom to easily try the latex mattress on the floor, then while going to sleep I did some shock experiments including lying on my back and patting my hand straight down and kicking my heel straight down. I reasoned that a near perfect up down motion could reasonably eliminate the possibility of our partner disturbance problem being due to side to side motions and bed frame swaying. Sure enough both these not forceful gestures where translated to discernible shockwaves all the way up to my head. Hmmmm…

Then suddenly around 4 AM I was awoken by my wife simply turning over and the resultant shock waves – like we were sleeping on a bed of Jello as it were. Frustrated and remembering your suggestion I got up, turned on the light, and convinced her to help me chaotically rearrange our furniture so that we could slide the mattress alone onto the bare hard wood floor. After a minute of testing this ‘pure setup’ sadly the effect is the same as always. I could literally sense her adjusting her feet everywhere throughout the bed and to the opposite diagonal all the way at my head!!! In the near hundred hotel / guestroom beds we have shared I can never remember sensing her rustling feets as with this new high end latex/jello mattress! No wonder a simple turn over from one of us wakes the other as has happened every single night since this mattress arrived. Needless to say after all this commotion sleep did not return to our eyes for the rest of the early morning.

So we tiredly find ourselves worse off than ever regarding the original main pillow top issue of partner disturbance. Again our brief trial with toxic memory foam was fantastic in this one regard even on our bed frame. I am planning to call Flexus today to arrange a refund and return OR some sort of replacement. Really I don’t want my money back but rather just want 10 years of potential full night’s sleep! Please send any last advice if you can – even ideas on some sort of split cal king bed / two twins that could be sheeted together to fit our one frame. Our situation is the same as before: slender, side sleepers, seeking healthy support and minimized partner disturbances.

Please forgive my drowsy crankiness – it’s been nearly a month of long nights with short sleep.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
29 Nov 2011 16:29 - 10 Oct 2014 18:07 #8 by Phoenix
Hi jbedshopper,

I'm not sure what to tell you. As you likely already know from testing latex before you made your purchase ... latex is not a motion transferring material. It is also not a material which sends "waves" across the surface. You can confirm this by lying on any latex mattress in any store (as long as it really is latex and not just a thin latex layer mixed in with something else). While there are some people who do talk about a "jello" feeling with latex ... this is a result of certain constructions where a person sinks in too deeply into the mattress or the way that latex (or any highly resilient and elastic material) returns energy when they move. If you have tried a latex pillow for example and lie on your back and then turn your head side to side you will feel it springing back from behind as your head moves away from the part it was resting on and how it "helps" your head to move. This is a subjective perception or "feel" that is part of individual preference but has nothing to do with motion transfer. Even this can be adjusted by changing layer thickness or the softness/firmness of the layers.

I recognize your frustration and really have no answers as I can't see exactly what may be happening except to suggest once again lying on several latex mattresses in any nearby outlets to prove to yourself the truth of this and to re-validate your experiences when you were testing latex mattresses. You will be able to see on any of them how little motion is transferred compared to other types of mattress or foam with the exception of memory foam which is slightly better in this regard because it is both "point elastic" and "energy absorbing" while latex is more point elastic. While the motion transfer is more than zero ... it is very little.

Two suggestions I could make would be to cut the comfort layer down the middle to further isolate one side from the other and/or to use a different ILD in the top layer. I'm sure that Henry would be happy to work with you in the store as he could actually see what may be happening and could help isolate where your motion transfer experience may be coming from and what adjustments may be necessary for you to be happy with the feel of your mattress.

I understand that this must be frustrating but the most important part of solving any problem is to correctly identify its source by being able to see in person what could be happening while it is happening. The ability to test various options and see which make the issue better or worse will also go a long way to helping Henry both identify and solve it to your satisfaction. Regardless of why this may be happening ... your sleep is important and it is clear that one way or another your current sleeping experience is certainly "less than ideal" and this is an issue that needs to be resolved.

Phoenix

Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last edit: 10 Oct 2014 18:07 by Phoenix.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Dec 2011 17:26 #9 by jbedshopper
Phoenix –

We have been continuing to suffer greatly with the new bed. In trying to solve awaking each other 1-2 times per night with a box spring pillow top mattress – we now instead waken each other 5-6 times per night with the far more expensive latex mattress. It almost feels as though we are never fully asleep actually since there is near continuous motion below us. The shocks are even audible below us as well as felt. In fact as internet customers (of yours indirectly) we had not tested latex mattresses in the store as we are not able to travel there together due to work and car limitations. Additionally the concept of testing a mattress for 3 minutes when really what matters is how it feels after 8 hours just never seemed useful to us and so we solicited your expert opinions on the matter.

With respect to your explanations and expertise, please consider that of course you have not actually ever tested this our particular mattress. I can assure you again this particular all latex mattress is simply the most wiggly/wobbly/wavy mattress we have likely EVER tried amongst thousands. In recent travels I can’t help testing other beds by shuffling my feet around and sure enough nothing ‘shock waves’ up to my head area as now happens 100 times per night with the latex. We have even had the bed tested by the owner who acknowledged that in me lightly patting a lower corner of the bed with my hand that he indeed could feel the waves on the opposite corner where his head laid. His response was ‘that’s just latex’ and recommended ‘adding a large pillow top to the mattress if that’s a problem’ ?!? And the most amazing shock is that though we reported the issue to him within days (after trying the mattress on the bare floor at your suggestions) and then requested exchange / return / refund / anything! within weeks he coolly replied that there is no such guarantee from them. Considering virtually everywhere else in the modern world has a 30 day return policy this was most stunning. Were you aware that they have none of tangible customer care when recommending them to us?

In retrospect I am still dazed how the one feature we so sought – partner disturbance relief - was somehow so absent from the end product and even introduced a whole new level of disturbance to our bedroom. To say that we are depressed, saddened, fatigued by the discomfort we have gotten ourselves into would naturally be a tremendous understatement. Obviously we wish we could have tested the bed ourselves instead of trusting more expert opinions but was not possible for us as explained above.
:S

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
21 Dec 2011 21:32 #10 by Phoenix
Hi jbedshopper,

As I said in my last post ... I'm just not sure what to tell you. There are a couple of things though that I should clarify since some of what you are saying here is not quite accurate or at least implies "blame" where I would put the emphasis more on "responsibility".

First in terms of a "comfort guarantee" or a refund policy ... I agree that this is important when you are buying online or sight unseen and I believe that a consumer is responsible for finding out about the policy here before they buy a mattress that they haven't tested or haven't at least tested similar mattresses using the same materials. Buying from a local manufacturer though where the pricing structure is built on the assumption that you will test the mattress is a different story. Bear in mind that everything has a cost and its not unusual at all for a local manufacturer to not offer this so that they can sell their mattresses at a lower cost to everyone and not have to build in the cost of comfort replacements or refunds into the price of their mattresses.

The value of a good local manufacturer is that you have the chance to buy a mattress that has great value that you can actually test and know ahead of time will be suitable for your needs and preferences. While you certainly may not be able to tell this in 3 minutes on a mattress ... you certainly can if you spend at least 15 minutes or more on it with the help of someone who knows what to look for and test for. Perhaps it could take half an hour. If you don't plan to actually test a mattress ... then an online purchase from a manufacturer who specializes in this and offers an exchange or refund would make sense. They would have an "average" exchange or refund rate built in to the cost of their mattress which is why they can offer the service even though its not necessary or even desirable for a local purchase when the cost tradeoff and increased price for everyone is considered. A comfort exchange leaves the manufacturer with a mattress that cannot be resold (if they are ethical) and they are already operating at a lower profit margin than most of the industry. In cases where someone isn't happy though ... they will normally "fix" the mattress at a nominal cost rather than offer a complete exchange or a refund.

I would hope it is clear as well from my many posts on this forum that buying anything ... especially a mattress ... based on someone else's opinions ("expert" or otherwise) and using this to "replace" your own experience or testing is never a good idea unless you are buying from a source which offers a refund ... and even then I recommend testing mattresses that use similar materials first. I also would not in any way characterize you or anyone as being my "customer" either directly or indirectly and I would guess that you will realize this as well with a little more reflection on what the role of any site like this really is. While my (or anyone else's) opinions can never take into account the subjective nature of each person's sensitivities, or predict whether or not they will like the feel or characteristics of any mattress or material, it also doesn't change the fact that latex ... in the opinion of the vast majority of consumers and manufacturers and in its "specs" ... is considered a motion isolating material (at least when pressure is applied on top of the mattress). This doesn't mean that you won't feel anything, but that the transfer of motion is very small in the perceptions of the vast majority and an improvement on most other choices.

I should also mention that motion isolation is usually describing the transfer of "up and down" or "rolling over" motion on a mattress. An innerspring has more "side to side" stability than a foam core even though it will transfer more motion of the type that most people are referring to when they talk about motion transfer so perhaps this is what you are referring to. In any case ... even 3 minutes on a mattress would confirm this. If I put a jug of water on one side of my latex mattress for example and then flop onto the mattress on the other side or sit down "with force" ... the water in it moves a little and the jug hardly moves at all. If instead I push on the side of my mattress or try to get a "side to side" motion going ... both the jug and the water move much more.

I called Henry to ask him about your situation and to find out his perspective on what you were experiencing.

He explained to me that he had originally offered to come to your home to see what was happening when you first brought this to his attention but that this wasn't possible for you at the time so you said no. When it became possible for you he then also had other commitments so the two of you weren't able to get together till later (recently). I hope you can appreciate that this already (having a manufacturer come and visit your home to help you) is already what I consider to be "above and beyond".

When he came to your home and looked at your mattress he could indeed slightly feel it when you were tapping the mattress but you were tapping it on the side rather than on the top. He also made sure that the cover wasn't somehow too tight and creating a "trampoline" effect and this too was fine. While he wouldn't call what he felt "motion transfer" and it was what he would consider "normal" ... it is true that latex doesn't absorb energy in the same way as memory foam even though every mattress manufacturer would consider it as being close and considers it to be a motion isolating material. This is the nature of the material regardless of the mattress. Having said this though ... if for whatever reason you are feeling something that others don't feel or at least don't see as an issue ... then nobody can say this is "wrong" and the solution for this would be to purchase something that your testing showed you was suitable for your preferences and experience. Unfortunately this didn't happen.

He also didn't suggest a "pillowtop" but rather a mattress pad like a fiberbed which he thought may help isolate your head and pillow from what you were feeling. Another suggestion would be to split the comfort layer which may also help. You could also add a layer of memory foam on top of your mattress. He was hesitant to suggest a different comfort or support layer because both of you seemed to agree that in terms of pressure relief and support that the current configuration was working very well and in the end if you are sensitive to the slight side to side transfer of movement that is connected to latex then changing the layering probably wouldn't help anyway and would likely make the pressure relief and alignment worse.

The shocks are even audible below us as well as felt.


This may also be a clue to what is happening because if they really are "audible" below you then this would clearly be pointing to something other than the mattress because latex is certainly not "audible" in any way.

I wish that you had taken Henry's advice (and my own) to test a mattress before you purchased it however since that is in the past I would consider a mattress pad (not a pillowtop) in the hopes that this will solve the issue or perhaps having Henry split the comfort layer as this too may make a slight difference in your perception of movement transfer. I would also seriously investigate the possibility that something in your sleeping setup other than the mattress is the major cause of what you are feeling.

I can sympathize with your circumstances but to transfer your responsibility to at least know how the material you were considering felt and performed like for YOU or to find out the refund policies of an outlet before making a purchase if you haven't done any testing seems very odd to me.

I believe that Henry will do whatever is in his power to do to help you resolve this (and he has already shown his willingness to do this by coming to your home) but to ask for someone else to go beyond their own responsibilities or ask him to take a loss for selling you what you insisted on buying sight unseen in spite of his (and my) suggestions to test it first before you buy it is not reasonable in my opinion. Fix it at a nominal cost if there is something identifiable to be fixed ... yes. Refund or exchange it at a loss when that is not built into the prices he charges everyone ... no.

I am personally an advocate of consumer education and responsibility and manufacturer service, quality, and value. Each of us is part of this process and to me it's important to identify who is responsible for what. Each consumer needs to decide what the most important parts of value are for them and make sure that the mattress and outlet they are considering has the "pieces" that they believe are the most important.

I'm hopeful that a mattress pad or splitting the layering or any other reasonable solution (including testing for the possibility that the other parts of your sleeping system may be part of what you are feeling) can resolve this as no matter what the reason or why you may be feeling what you are feeling ... I (and I know you and Henry as well) would much rather that it was resolved.

Phoenix

Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • FREE Consumer Membership & Price Discounts

    Offered to consumers who Create an Account to register on OUR FORUM to ask questions or share mattress related experiences. Additionally, Consumer Members of TMU will receive discounts/bonuses from some of the best quality/value Mattress Manufacturers in North America.

     

  • CONNECTING Consumers with Trusted Manufacturers & Retailers

    The Mattress Underground (TMU) website connects consumers with the most Trusted Manufacturers & Retailers throughout North America. All TMU Members have agreed to provide TMU consumer members price discounts/bonus higher or equal to all other discounts offered throughout the Internet.

      • For eCommerce purchases, please check here for the unique discount code(s) offered by each of the TMU Trusted members.
      • When purchasing locally simply present the referral certificate provided by the TMU Trusted Member linked above or mention “The Mattress Underground” when visiting their store.

     

  • QUALITY Manufacturers & KNOWLEDGEABLE Retailers

    The Business membership of this site is by invitation only and is only offered when we are satisfied that what you offer places you in the upper tier of mattress manufacturers & retailers across North America in terms of quality, knowledge & transparency, and service. If you believe that your company meets the quality/value criteria please complete and submit the PMAF form here to start the review process.

    Membership Requirements

  • Membership Disclosure

    The Mattress Underground offers free consumer membership & paid membership for select mattress manufacturers or retailers. Member dues/fees are our source of income as The Mattress Underground is expensive to operate and employs people. For those manufacturers or retailers that have been invited to become members, and for any consumer that wishes to find their "best fit" mattress, we hope you choose to take advantage of what TMU offers as we believe the value of our services and information, our willingness and ability to work on behalf of and connect educated consumers with the better retailers and manufacturers across the US and Canada, are second to none on the internet. Mattress manufacturer and retailer memberships are available for companies that sell directly to consumers, but are by invitation only.

    In order to ensure full transparency with our readers, we’d like to disclose the following about our member relationships:

    • Consumer have free membership but can voluntarily donate to helping TMU operate.
    • Mattress retailers that qualify to be a Trusted Member pay monthly dues/fees.
    • Mattress manufacturers that qualify to be a Trusted Member pay monthly dues/fees
    More information about the benefits and services that TMU members receive can be found on the Our Services page of this website