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6 inch Latex Mattress 03 Nov 2013 07:49 #1

Hi,
After more research, I came here to express my current fears and look for answers, knowing that I can't test locally anything with latex. I need to drive at least 7-8 hours, so I rather make a solid list of what I want to try when I get there, instead of assuming that 6 inch latex is fine for me, yet I will find myself in a situation of using my phone internet to search for alternate stores for mattresses of a type.

So here is my situation:
I have 220 pounds. My wife has 130 pounds.
I am a side sleeper, I would sleep more on my back if I wouldn't have lower back problems, as I am using a spring mattress at this moment which needs to be replaced asap. To be totally honest, I would love back sleeping if the mattress would allow my body to sink a bit, so that I don't feel like my arms,head and feet are "hanging" on the sides. Also, stomach sleeping, which is what I did some time ago, is impossible on my mattress, since every time I try that it feels like the bed is "straightening" me up, not allowing me to use my hands or feet to sink a bit into the mattress so that I get support for the position I like. I feel like my hands and feet are pulled with a rope to the sides of the mattress every time I try any other position then simply laying totally flat on the surface.
The only comfortable position at this point, is sleeping on the side, but that is also a bit problematic, since the spring mattress that I got won't let my lower back sit straight horizontally, and I feel like my spine is split in 2 due to this problem.
My wife is more of a back sleeper/side sleeper depending on the mood. She doesn't have any back problems. She would sleep more on her back if she could sink a bit more into the mattress.

We kind of decided that we either buy a single mattress queen size latex hardness H3, 2 smaller mattresses to make up the entire queen size. Should I buy 2 smaller mattresses instead of one? Is this a good solution for the details I gave you?
What would be the best mattress if you were in my situation. I did read the guides a few times, yet I am still not able to come up with the options that I need to have in mind, to cover my situation. I would rather have you tell us what do you think that would be our options. I don't ask you to give me a straight answer, cause I am aware that is also a matter of taste, price, availability, and so on. But what I do ask you, is to tell me what do you think that I should test when I go into a store, so that I got maximum chance to find something nice.

To give you an example, if you tell me that memory foam with a specific configuration, or a range of configurations should be on my try list, I will give them a try. But I rather have the list ready and the places I need to go, before I actually go there.

Also, my budget is a light problem. I would love to buy a 8 inch mattress, 2 inch of talalay on a 6 inch core, but no matter how much I researched I could not find anything viable(natural, certificate) under 1000 dolars for a queen size mattress. so my question is, for my weight, is it enough a 6 inch mattress considering that I am a side sleeper? Should I consider buying a base of some springy material to take a bit of the compression so that I don't hit the hard part? This is my current base:
www.salteleprevi.ro/admin/images-salteleprevi/foto382-2.gif
I know it can't be compared with a "spring" like base with "elastic" stripes, and is actually made just for providing hard support and air. But I want to know if I need to consider buying a new base and what type of base for allowing me to stick to 6 inch latex mattress, or I rather keep the base and try to find a cheap 8 inch latex mattress instead?

I know there are a lot of alternatives, which makes it extremely hard to figure out what should I look for. For example, if you think that there might be a problem for me using a 6 inch latex mattress, even if I buy another base, (ofc, I can't buy anything expensive as a base), then I should probably try something else, or 8 inch mattress.

As I said, I would very much love to know how would you think about it if you were in my place, what would you consider viable options and what not, and what do you think would be the best bet and what would you aim for in this situation.

Thank You

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6 inch Latex Mattress 03 Nov 2013 11:52 #2

Hi Dan1979,

The first place I would start your research is the basic tutorial post here which has all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that will help you make the best choice.

Most of your questions can only be answered based on your own personal testing for PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) because there are too many unknowns, variables, and individual preferences to use a "formula" or "theory at a distance" to predict anyone's experience on a specific mattress design (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

Outside of your own personal testing ... the most important part of choosing a mattress is to only deal with retailers or manufacturers that are transparent and can tell you the specifics of what is inside any mattress you test. You can't "feel" the quality of the materials in a mattress but lower quality materials will soften or degrade much faster than higher quality materials and this results in the more rapid loss of comfort and support which isn't covered by any warranty. This is especially important with higher weights because all materials will soften, compress, or break down more rapidly over time with higher weights than with lower weights.

We kind of decided that we either buy a single mattress queen size latex hardness H3, 2 smaller mattresses to make up the entire queen size. Should I buy 2 smaller mattresses instead of one? Is this a good solution for the details I gave you?


This would be one option when the needs and preferences of a couple are different but there are others as well. There is more about this in the first part of post #2 here . Which of the options was best for you would depend on your own preferences, sleeping habits, and your testing on each mattress (using the testing guidelines) to make sure it was suitable for both of your needs and preferences.

To give you an example, if you tell me that memory foam with a specific configuration, or a range of configurations should be on my try list, I will give them a try. But I rather have the list ready and the places I need to go, before I actually go there.


There is no one material that is inherently "better" than another for any particular person and this is mostly a matter of preference and most importantly the specific design of a mattress and how well it matches your body types and sleeping style regardless of the types of materials and components in the mattress). Every material also has higher and lower quality versions and this more than anything else will determine the cost and durability of the mattress.

Also, my budget is a light problem. I would love to buy a 8 inch mattress, 2 inch of talalay on a 6 inch core, but no matter how much I researched I could not find anything viable(natural, certificate) under 1000 dolars for a queen size mattress. so my question is, for my weight, is it enough a 6 inch mattress considering that I am a side sleeper? Should I consider buying a base of some springy material to take a bit of the compression so that I don't hit the hard part? This is my current base:
www.salteleprevi.ro/admin/images-salteleprevi/foto382-2.gif
I know it can't be compared with a "spring" like base with "elastic" stripes, and is actually made just for providing hard support and air. But I want to know if I need to consider buying a new base and what type of base for allowing me to stick to 6 inch latex mattress, or I rather keep the base and try to find a cheap 8 inch latex mattress instead?


You can read more about different types of box springs and foundations in the foundation post here and the posts it links to in the second paragraph. There are certainly some manufacturers that build a "sleeping system" that uses a more responsive base, typically under a thinner foam mattress (either a box spring or flexible slat foundation), which can have a significant effect on how the mattress feels and performs but once again only your own testing and experience can tell which combination works best for you. You are not in a price range that would have many 8" or thicker latex mattresses available to you unless you are considering all synthetic latex. You would be in a price range though where latex polyfoam hybrids would be available.

I know there are a lot of alternatives, which makes it extremely hard to figure out what should I look for. For example, if you think that there might be a problem for me using a 6 inch latex mattress, even if I buy another base, (ofc, I can't buy anything expensive as a base), then I should probably try something else, or 8 inch mattress.


There is more in post #14 here about the effect of thickness and some of the more common choices. Thinner mattresses with a firm base under it will tend to be firmer and less adaptive than a thicker version of the same material. There are many people who do well on a single 6" layer of a high quality material such as latex or HR polyfoam ... particularly if they are stomach or back sleepers which don't need the same amount of cushioning under the pressure points that are part of side sleeping but once again only your own personal experience can know with any certainty.

As I said, I would very much love to know how would you think about it if you were in my place, what would you consider viable options and what not, and what do you think would be the best bet and what would you aim for in this situation.


I would follow the steps in the tutorial post one by one and choose the best quality and most suitable mattress that I could comfortably afford. I would also put high value in the knowledge, transparency, experience, and integrity of who I was dealing with because this can be one of the most important parts of a successful mattress purchase. My first step outside of some basic reading about the pros and cons of different materials and designs and what to avoid would be several hours on the phone to narrow down the retailers or manufacturers I planned to visit.

If you let me know your city or zip code I'd be happy to let you know of any better options I may be aware of in your area but if I was 7-8 hours away from a store that met my criteria I would seriously consider an online purchase that had good options available both before and after a purchase to make changes or "fine tune" the mattress to my specific needs and preferences if necessary.

Phoenix
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For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

6 inch Latex Mattress 08 Nov 2013 11:00 #3

Since I decided to go tomorrow to see some mattresses including a latex mattress, I wanted to ask some more questions regarding a few quality details that I read from some sources which should be reliable. Since I can't narrow my search to specific items based on the information I know so far, I decided to drive that long to go and see for myself. Luckily is not that long, I found latex mattress in a town 3 hours away. But in order to be sure that I won't be cheated/tricked by the sales ppl, which does happens easily nowadays especially in my country, I really need you to help me with some answers.

1. I understood that the durability of a latex mattress that has 100% organic latex in it, which I understood is 98%, is somewhere over 20 years, if nothing unfortunate happens, like heavy damage or pulling harder from one side, or things that are directly affecting it. I want to know how this number of years decreases, or at least to make a correlation between the percentage of organic/synthetic. To be able to make a logic of how bad durability decreases by increasing the synthetic percentage, I would like to know the durability for 15% synthetic, 50% synthetic, 100% synthetic latex mattress.

2. I understood that if I would buy a polyfoam that is HD, its shape will suffer after 5 years, starting to allow the indentations created to be noticeable. How does this applies to HR foam.

3. How can I know which one is HR foam and which one isn't. You said:
"This is the highest grade of polyfoam and weighs 2.5 lbs per cubic foot or more and uses a different formulation than conventional polyfoam. It also must have a support factor (progressive resistance) of 2.4 or higher and resilience of 60% to qualify for this grade."

Tell me how should I understand/read this:
If it has less weight then this or if it has less then 2.4 support factor, or if it has a resilience of less then 60% is automatically a fake HR foam? Is any of those details going to tell me if that foam is or is not a HR foam or not. Here on my country they sell HR foam of 30 density on some places, while I understood that HR should have at least 32 density?
How can I use this information to actually be able to decide if one foam is or not HR foam.
What I am trying to pick from this is some property that is clearly only possible for HR foam, and not for a HD foam, in order to have some tool of finding out.

4. Will a real HR foam mattress core give me 10 years of unnoticeable indentations? Or I should simply give this idea up, and look at other things.

5. What material should a pocket spring mattress should have between the springs and the upper comfort layer so that I am sure that I won't start to feel the springs in my back after 5 years, but in the same time to actually be able to take advantage of the fact that it is a mattress with separated coils. In other words, how can I be sure about the quality.

6. What is cold foam and how is its durability? Probably a very unclear question, though, I was unable to find proper information about it.

7. What about the difference in durability between memory foam and poly foam? Most likely we can only talk about difference in the comfort layers since no one uses memory foam in the core layers, right? And for the topper layer doesn't really matter anyway, or?

Please help me with this list of questions, hopefully I formulated them better, to allow more black and white answers.
Thank You

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Last edit: by Dan1979. Reason: a lot of misunderstandings in the way I formulated the questions

6 inch Latex Mattress 08 Nov 2013 15:16 #4

Hi Dan1979,

The durability and useful life of a mattress is relative and depends on many factors (including the person on the mattress) and there isn't a number of years that can be "attached" to any particular type of material because of the number of factors involved.

Having said that ... post #4 here and the links it includes has more information about the many factors involved which can help you assess the relative durability of one mattress compared to another and answer the durability questions in your post as "accurately" as possible.

1. I understood that the durability of a latex mattress that has 100% organic latex in it, which I understood is 98%, is somewhere over 20 years, if nothing unfortunate happens, like heavy damage or pulling harder from one side, or things that are directly affecting it. I want to know how this number of years decreases, or at least to make a correlation between the percentage of organic/synthetic. To be able to make a logic of how bad durability decreases by increasing the synthetic percentage, I would like to know the durability for 15% synthetic, 50% synthetic, 100% synthetic latex mattress.


Dunlop latex that has an organic certification is no more durable than 100% natural Dunlop latex. They are the same material except organic latex has an organic certification. I would also question whether there is any latex that is 98% natural rubber ... organic or otherwise. All latex is a durable material (natural, synthetic, or blended) but there is more information about the different types of latex in post #6 here . Once again there isn't a number of years that can be "attached" to any type of mattress or material because it depends on many factors besides just the type of material used.

2. I understood that if I would buy a polyfoam that is HD, its shape will suffer after 5 years, starting to allow the indentations created to be noticeable. How does this applies to HR foam.


The single biggest factor in the relative durability of polyfoam is the density regardless of whether it is HD or HR. The main difference between HD and HR is in its other properties (such as resilience, point elasticity, and compression modulus). HD is also a generic term which isn't particularly meaningful because some manufacturers call 1.35 lb polyfoam HD while others consiser 1.8 lb to be the bottom end of HD. In most cases 1.5 lb is the most common lower end of HD. It will also depend on the specific design and layering of the mattress because the comfort layers of a mattress are normally the "weak link" so the density and thickness of any lower density polyfoam in the comfort layers is the most important part of identifying the weak link of a mattress.

3. How can I know which one is HR foam and which one isn't. You said:
"This is the highest grade of polyfoam and weighs 2.5 lbs per cubic foot or more and uses a different formulation than conventional polyfoam. It also must have a support factor (progressive resistance) of 2.4 or higher and resilience of 60% to qualify for this grade."


HR polyfoam is a specific grade of polyfoam that can be used on a law label but there are also other types of polyfoam that are usually called "high performance" foams that use similar formulations that are more resilient or have a higher compression modulus that have a lower density. They will show up on the law label as polyurethane. These high performance polyfoams have some of the properties of HR polyfoam and use a different chemical formulation than conventional polyfoam but the single most effective way to compare the durability of any polyfoam is density regardless of whether it is high performance, HR (high resilience), conventional, or HD (high density). The only way to know what is in your mattress is the information that is provided by the manufacturer of your mattress and many of these can only provide the information that is supplied by the rep of their foam manufacturer which may not always be accurate because there are some "fuzzy definitions" that are very common in the industry. It's also a very complex topic that in most cases would overwhelm most consumers even if all the specs of every type of polyfoam were available. I would focus mainly on the density of the polyfoam and the position of each layer in a mattress to assess durability and on your own personal testing or experience in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and how a mattress "feels".

If it has less weight then this or if it has less then 2.4 support factor, or if it has a resilience of less then 60% is automatically a fake HR foam? Is any of those details going to tell me if that foam is or is not a HR foam or not.


It's not so much that it is a "fake" HR polyfoam but that it's not technically HR even though it may still be a high performance polyfoam that uses the same type of chemical formulation as HR. These are specs that you won't generally be able to obtain outside of density information. There would be little to any durability difference between a high performance polyfoam that was 2.4 lbs density, an HD polyfoam that was 2.5 lb density, and an HR polyfoam that was 2.5 lb density.

4. Will a real HR foam mattress core give me 10 years of unnoticeable indentations? Or I should simply give this idea up, and look at other things.


There will be some softening and some impressions in all foam materials over time but it would depend on the specifics of the mattress and the positioning of the layers, on its softness/firmness, and of course on the density of the foam in the comfort layers. For some people and with some mattresses HR polyfoam may maintain its comfort and support for much longer than 10 years. For others that are on the edge of their comfort and support range then even smaller amounts of foam softening (which will still happen with any foam) may put them outside of the range of PPP that is suitable for them (there is more about this in one of the links in the durability post).

5. What material should a pocket spring mattress should have between the springs and the upper comfort layer so that I am sure that I won't start to feel the springs in my back after 5 years, but in the same time to actually be able to take advantage of the fact that it is a mattress with separated coils. In other words, how can I be sure about the quality.


This depends on the specifics of the pocket spring and on the general design goal of the mattress. Pocket springs that have a higher coil count will have less "gaps" between the springs and can use foam directly over the springs. Others that have lower coil counts may need some type of insulator or mesh to prevent the foam from sagging into the larger gaps between the springs. In many cases there will be firmer foam over the springs (which will sag less) and then softer foam above that. Pocket coils are also encased in a fabric which provides a more evenly supportive surface for the foam on top of them which is why you will generally see insulator layers over innersprings that use helicals and don't have a fabric pocket around them.

In most cases I would focus on the type and density of the foam above the pocket coils which is the biggest factor in foam softening which can lead to the loss of comfort and support and feeling the firmness of the springs if the foam softens too much. There are some higher coil count pocket coils that are soft and conforming enough that even lying directly on the coils would be "comfortable" and these don't need the same thickness of foam above them. There are so many variables involved in these types of complex and "it depends" questions that can take many years of experience to understand so it's usually best to "connect with an expert" that can talk about the specifics of a particular mattress and already knows what you would otherwise need to learn than it is to try and "become an expert".

In terms of durability ... knowing the basics of the type and quality/durability of the materials in the mattress ... and in particular the comfort layers ... will greatly shift the odds in your favor but trying to find simple or exact answers to complex questions will generally lead to paralysis by analysis and put you in a position that would take years of learning before you could even buy a mattress.

6. What is cold foam and how is its durability? Probably a very unclear question, though, I was unable to find proper information about it.


High performance polyfoams (HR or otherwise) are sometimes called cold foam because they don't require or generate as much heat when the chemicals react together or are cured.

7. What about the difference in durability between memory foam and poly foam? Most likely we can only talk about difference in the comfort layers since no one uses memory foam in the core layers, right? And for the topper layer doesn't really matter anyway, or?


Yes ... memory foam is too soft and too temperature sensitive to be used in primary support layers in a mattress but the comfort layers are the weak link of most mattresses anyway and the most significant factor in it's useful life. The relative durability of each would depend on many things including the density of each but I would put both 5 lb memory foam (or higher) and polyfoam in the 2.5 lb range or higher in the very durable category. Which one would last longer would depend on the more detailed specifics of each foam and on the specific design of the mattress. More specific than this in each particular design wouldn't be possible to quantify with any accuracy except in relative terms (comparing the probable durability of one mattress design to another based on the specifics of each design and relative to the person that was using the mattress).

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

6 inch Latex Mattress 10 Nov 2013 04:38 #5

Hi Phoenix,

I went yesterday to see the mattresses, and I was lucky enough to receive a flyer with a commercial of a mattress store that just opened in that big store center the day before yesterday. They luckily had a latex mattress in there for me to test. So here is all I tested yesterday(and is worth considering):

1. A dunlop 18 cm block of latex, no zones, 30% natural, 70% synthetic, no certification at all. The seller could only tell me about the mattress that is a medium harness with a value of 4,8 kPa, which unfortunately i have no idea how to translate into something comparable with all I read here and on other sources. The salesman also told me that the latex is manufactured in Europe, country Bulgary, yet I was unable to find anything on the internet about any factory in that country. If there exists one, please point it out so that I can check their website for aditional information. They only give 5 years warranty for the mattress.

2 A polyfoam+memory foam mattress constructed like this: 5 cm of 50 kg/m3 density memory foam, put on a core of 13 cm polyfoam of 30 kg/m3 density polyfoam. They give 10 years warranty on the mattress, however, they said that they cover anything that happens to it. My guess is that they won't accept it back if the differences are small enough to be barely noticeable.

3. In the store center, I saw a latex mattress that was 16 cm height, 7 zone block of dunlop 95% natural latex/5% synthetic latex, with eko-tex certification, 65 kg/m3 density.

I was quite surprised by the feeling of the memory foam+polyfoam as it gave a quite nice side sleeping position. Where it was really poor it was the back sleeping. At least compared to latex. Here is what I felt like. When I sit on my back in a sleeping position, I was getting the feeling that my feet and arms "hang" from my body, not letting my body sink enough to allow comfortable position for my feet and hands. However, when it comes to my lumbar zone, I got the feeling that the harder the mattress core, the less my chest will sink into the mattress, so the lumbar zone will feel pressure from the chest being transferred. Curiously, when I tested the latex mattress, I was able to sink enough in it so that my lumbar zone felt sustained, and I felt this on both the 18 cm block with no zones, as with the 16 cm 7 zones, so I doubt that the 7 zones composition had too much to do with it. So it is somewhat useful, but is not that much different from the simple block without zones.
It quicly became obvious that I need a softer core so that my heavy body can sink enough in it. I believe that this is one reason why latex mattress single block is working so well for me. I was really uncomfortable when I tested a harder core, even on an 8 cm memory foam. The only thing that does make memory foam+polyfoam win was the stomach sleeping position, which was close to impossible for me to get on a latex mattress. Probably the only way it will work is without a pillow.

Now the mystery about how much I sink on a 16 cm latex mattress. My conclusion was that using a side sleeping position will not really allow you to feel the hardness of the surface beneath, unless you are putting your shoulder directly angled 90 degrees into the mattress, or if you move in bed a bit. It wasn't a bad feeling, latex is masking it really nice, however, my conclusion is that if I want to buy a 16 cm, 7 zone latex mattress with 65 kg/m3 density for side sleeping, I better consider a topper or 18 cm latex mattress instead. However, do also consider that I am 220 pounds heavy, and my structure is athletic(if you can still call that with my weight lol), heavy chested and big shoulders distance. Under normal circumstances, with my every day shoulder position, which is not 90 degrees angled into the mattress, I was unable to feel the mattress becoming harder. However, I decided to ask for options to get a 18 cm latex mattress instead.
What I've been offered was the option to build a custom cover for me, that could fit 3 cm more of latex from the exact same type of latex(i explained at the end of post), that is used to build toppers. They also said that it will need to be glued with a switsserland made water based glue that they said is totally safe, so that it doesn't move inside. This will however remove my chance to return the mattress in a maximum of 30 days trial. The warranty for this mattress is 5 years. Considering that this mattress has 65 kg/m3 density, I found some information about other mattresses with 7 zones that I found on the internet:

One mattress that has 20% natural content comes in those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG60 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG65 - up to 120 kg

One other mattress from same seller that has 85% Natural rubber has those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG75 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG80 - up to 120 kg

Now this is so confusing, that I can conclude 1 milion things out of this: is it same exact hardness RG60 with RG75, but is due to the different material? Is it that RG65 is only for a more synthetic percentage and the salesman lied about the 95% natural rubber in it? How do those numbers relate also in terms of durability or in terms of hardness of mattress? What exactly is that RG number?

Can you give me some piece of advice about what I got wrong in my experience, as I am sure that there are things which I misunderstood, and what exactly do you think would make a good strategy for me to make a safe buy.

Thank You,
Dan

EDIT: I remembered it wrong, is not the exact same type of latex in the 3 cm one, it has much smaller holes in it and it has some waves beneath it that provides its firmness.

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Last edit: by Dan1979. Reason: something remembered wrong

6 inch Latex Mattress 10 Nov 2013 04:50 #6

I forgot to add that I did feel like the 18 cm with more synthetic in it was more solid a bit then the one with 16 cm 7 zones 95% natural latex. If you can help me to figure out what those numbers mean in my previous post, I could understand what is the difference between the 2 latex mattresses I tested.

Also, the lumbar experience that I explained is it normal? Or you got some advice that I should follow to help me clarify better in my head what I felt like when I tested them.

Also, when I tested the latex mattresses on side sleeping, I felt that the ability to compress of the latex mattress was keeping my spine aligned correctly, and even if a bit on the soft side, the latex mattress felt the best for my spinal alignment.

About gluing 3 cm more latex to the 16 cm one, will this affect the feeling of the mattress compared to the single 16 cm core? Will the glue make it less resistant over time? Will the glue affect the quality/safety of the mattress? Will the mattress feel a bit harder then using a single block of 19 cm?

Thank You,
Dan

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6 inch Latex Mattress 10 Nov 2013 13:25 #7

Hi Dan1979,

1. A dunlop 18 cm block of latex, no zones, 30% natural, 70% synthetic, no certification at all. The seller could only tell me about the mattress that is a medium harness with a value of 4,8 kPa, which unfortunately i have no idea how to translate into something comparable with all I read here and on other sources. The salesman also told me that the latex is manufactured in Europe, country Bulgary, yet I was unable to find anything on the internet about any factory in that country. If there exists one, please point it out so that I can check their website for aditional information. They only give 5 years warranty for the mattress.


There are many ways to rate the firmness of a material around the world but in the end it boils down to what you feel because there are so many factors beside the "rated" firmness of a mattress or a particular layer (regardless of how it is measured) that can affect how a mattress feels and performs for you. Posts #1 and #2 here would be well worth reading but translating from one type of firmness measurement to another can be difficult, involve several steps, and would require knowing the percentage of compression that was used to rate the material for firmness (usually either 25% or 40%).

I don't know who may be manufacturing or fabricating latex in Bulgaria but it could be a division of Sapsa in France, or Artilat or Latexco in Belgium which are all large European latex manufacturers.

1 kpa (kilopascal) is the same as 0.145037738 psi and ILD is measured with a 50 sq in foot so 0.145037738 x 50 = @7.25 lb. If the testing used the same compression percentage (either 25% or 40%) then 1 kpa would equal 7.25 ILD and 4.8 kpa would equal @ 35 ILD. It would be very important though to make sure that both materials you were comparing measured ILD at the same compression percentage or the comparisons would be meaningless and if the compression modulus of each material was different then the comparison would only apply if you compressed both materials to exactly 25% (no more and no less).

In other words ... without comparable "specs" on both sides of a comparison you are better off using your own personal testing or experience to compare different materials.

2 A polyfoam+memory foam mattress constructed like this: 5 cm of 50 kg/m3 density memory foam, put on a core of 13 cm polyfoam of 30 kg/m3 density polyfoam. They give 10 years warranty on the mattress, however, they said that they cover anything that happens to it. My guess is that they won't accept it back if the differences are small enough to be barely noticeable.


There is a density converter here which you can use to "translate" one density measurement to another that is more commonly used on this site. 50 kg/m3 is the same as 3.12 lbs / ft3 which for memory foam would be lower quality. 30 kg/m3 is the same as 1.87 lbs / ft3 which for polyfoam is good quality.

3. In the store center, I saw a latex mattress that was 16 cm height, 7 zone block of dunlop 95% natural latex/5% synthetic latex, with eko-tex certification, 65 kg/m3 density.


This would generally be in a soft range (you can see here for an approximate density / ILD reference point for 100% natural Dunlop). Synthetic rubber is less dense than natural rubber so the percentage of a blend would have an effect on the comparison and different compounding and production methods will also affect the ILD/density of each material to some degree.

Also, the lumbar experience that I explained is it normal? Or you got some advice that I should follow to help me clarify better in my head what I felt like when I tested them.


Yes ... this would be inside the range of "normal" experience although the reasons "why" you are experiencing what you are experiencing may or may not be accurate. You may feel pressure on your lumbar for example on a firmer mattress because your upper body doesn't sink in enough for your recessed lumbar to make firm enough contact with the mattress which can feel like pressure when it could be muscle tension that comes from the muscles holding your lower back in alignment instead of the mattress. Either way I would trust your own personal experience. Side sleeping generally needs thicker softer comfort layers to relieve pressure than back sleeping so a design that works well for side sleeping can sometimes cause alignment issues for back sleeping.


One mattress that has 20% natural content comes in those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG60 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG65 - up to 120 kg

One other mattress from same seller that has 85% Natural rubber has those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG75 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG80 - up to 120 kg

Now this is so confusing, that I can conclude 1 milion things out of this: is it same exact hardness RG60 with RG75, but is due to the different material? Is it that RG65 is only for a more synthetic percentage and the salesman lied about the 95% natural rubber in it? How do those numbers relate also in terms of durability or in terms of hardness of mattress? What exactly is that RG number?

Can you give me some piece of advice about what I got wrong in my experience, as I am sure that there are things which I misunderstood, and what exactly do you think would make a good strategy for me to make a safe buy.


Synthetic rubber has a lower density than natural rubber so the same ILD in both (assuming that ILD or firmness is tested with the same method) will have a different density. RG60, RG65, RG75 and and RG 80 sound to me like density ratings (60 - 80 kg/m3) with a range of variation that can be expected in each rating. Density/firmness comparisons between types of latex that have a different blend of natural and synthetic probably won't be accurate.

There is nothing "wrong" in your experience and I would always trust your own experience over "theory at a distance".

Also, when I tested the latex mattresses on side sleeping, I felt that the ability to compress of the latex mattress was keeping my spine aligned correctly, and even if a bit on the soft side, the latex mattress felt the best for my spinal alignment.


Latex and memory foam all come in different types and firmness levels so if a particular mattress is a good "match" for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) in all your sleeping positions then all that's left to do is to make sure there are no obvious weak links in the mattress in terms of durability and that you have enough information to make meaningful comparisons to other mattresses that are also a good match in terms of PPP.

About gluing 3 cm more latex to the 16 cm one, will this affect the feeling of the mattress compared to the single 16 cm core? Will the glue make it less resistant over time? Will the glue affect the quality/safety of the mattress? Will the mattress feel a bit harder then using a single block of 19 cm?


Yes ... making any change to a mattress design will have an effect on how the mattress feels and performs. The glue won't make it less durable. The "safety" of the glue would depend on the type of glue that is used but if it's a latex glue rather than a solvent based glue then it would generally be considered to be safe. If the 3" layer of latex is the same firmness as the 16 cm layer of latex and the glue was flexible rather than firmer then the two glued together would be about the same firmness level as a 19 cm core of the same material that had the same firmness rating as the two layers glued together. If the top 3cm layer of added latex was either softer or firmer than the 16 cm layer then it would affect how the glued combination compared to the unglued layer.

That's a lot of technical questions and using detailed specifications to choose a mattress instead of a simpler process based on yoru actual experience can easily lead to information overload but hopefully this has been helpful.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

6 inch Latex Mattress 11 Nov 2013 13:28 #8

Hi Phoenix,

Thank You very much for helping me restricting the questions to a lower number, and I am fairly close to "knowing" what I want.

1. I think I reformulated the question about 10 times, however, I guess that this would be the only question I could ask: Out of a system with 4 different firmnesses, be it Soft,Medium, Hard, Very Hard what would make more sense for the the 4,8 kpa latex mattress to be? I am really sure that I need to pick between Medium and Hard. According to the ILD would be Hard firmness, but I am not really sure it was such a huge difference between the two. One thing that I am mistaking is that I might be wrongly assuming that the hardest firmness of latex would feel somewhat like the harder firmness of polyfoam, which I might be mistaking, and instead, the hardest latex is more softer then I thought.

2. About this questions:
One mattress that has 20% natural content comes in those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG60 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG65 - up to 120 kg

One other mattress from same seller that has 85% Natural rubber has those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG75 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG80 - up to 120 kg

The reason I gave you this example is the fact that they most likely give the 80 kg and 120 kg to specify the weight of people that can use the mattress, or is suitable for, and I find it really strange to see that both 60 and 75 densities are suitable for people up to 80 kilos, while desities 65 and 80 are suitable for people up to 120 kg. Is this normal? I mean I find it odd that density 75 can't be suitable for people over 80, while 65 can.

3. Natural vs synthetic rubber densities. I understood from what you said that Synthetic is lower density. This means that for the same level of ILD, to give an example, to achieve the ILD of lets say 70 kg/m3 of natural rubber, I need 75 kg or so of synthetic one?

4. Does it depends on the glue if 2 layers glued together will feel firmer or softer then they both are? Wouldn't it be that usually they will all be firmer (ofc, slightly)?

Thank You,
Dan

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6 inch Latex Mattress 11 Nov 2013 14:52 #9

Hi Dan1979

I suspect you can answer your own question #2 with your statement that natural rubber has a higher density than synthetic in #3.

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6 inch Latex Mattress 11 Nov 2013 18:49 #10

Hi Dan1979,

1. I think I reformulated the question about 10 times, however, I guess that this would be the only question I could ask: Out of a system with 4 different firmnesses, be it Soft,Medium, Hard, Very Hard what would make more sense for the the 4,8 kpa latex mattress to be? I am really sure that I need to pick between Medium and Hard. According to the ILD would be Hard firmness, but I am not really sure it was such a huge difference between the two. One thing that I am mistaking is that I might be wrongly assuming that the hardest firmness of latex would feel somewhat like the harder firmness of polyfoam, which I might be mistaking, and instead, the hardest latex is more softer then I thought.

2. About this questions:
One mattress that has 20% natural content comes in those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG60 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG65 - up to 120 kg

One other mattress from same seller that has 85% Natural rubber has those 2 options:
Hardness H2 RG75 - up to 80 kg
Hardness H3 RG80 - up to 120 kg


There are really only two ways to choose a mattress in terms of PPP (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ). One is your own careful and objective testing and experience and the other is based on more detailed conversations with an online (or distant) retailer or manufacturer so they can help you choose one of the mattresses that they offer that has the best odds of being a suitable "match" for your specific needs and preferences based on "averages".

Other than that you would be looking at trial and error and going through the learning curve that is involved in becoming an "expert" in mattress design and theory which would take many weeks, months, or years and a great deal of experience testing different types of mattresses and materials so you have some reference points and the specs you are looking at have some "meaning" to you in your own personal experience. There are just too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved to use 'theory at a distance" as an effective way to choose a mattress.

Polyfoam and latex use different methods to test for ILD so they are not comparable (see post #6 here ).

4. Does it depends on the glue if 2 layers glued together will feel firmer or softer then they both are? Wouldn't it be that usually they will all be firmer (ofc, slightly)?


Two layers that are glued together will generally feel slightly firmer than the same two layers that aren't glued ... but many people may not notice the difference depending on the specifics of the layers and the rest of the design and components of the mattress.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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