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Bed Frame - Anyone have experience with the Knickerbocker Embrace"?

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04 Nov 2019 22:30 #21 by beth819
Hi Phoenix,

I purchased Talalay latex. I know Dunlop is a different feel and firmer. I did quite a bit of research on here before I got the PLB mattress and I tested both and didn't like the feel of Dunlop. Which is a main reason I went with LMF over others that only carry Dunlop. My BMI is 21.8 according to that calculator.

When laying on my side, I normally sleep with a pillow in between my legs. For example, if I'm laying on my right side, my right lower leg barely touches the surface of the mattress, with or without the pillow in between my legs. With my arm, it rests right next to my pillow and my forearm barely touches the surface of the mattress. I'm not sure how else to explain it?

I bought a 9" mattress cover so I am only able to put 3 layers in it. The combinations I've tried were:
-soft/medium/firm in the mattress cover. With this configuration I don't feel I am sinking in enough.
-I also tried medium/soft/firm in the mattress cover and a soft layer on top of the mattress cover. With this, same thing, not sinking in enough.
-So then I tried soft/medium/firm in the mattress cover and soft on top of the cover. With that I sink in laying on my back, but not on my side.

All of the configurations I tried made my back hurt. So now I am back to soft/medium/firm in the cover and I have an old 1 1/2' memory foam topper on top of that. This I am sinking into when laying on my back and slightly when on my side, but my back still hurts a bit. It's the only configuration that is working for me at the moment and has a little plush feel. However, I would prefer to have an all latex mattress because I know with the right configuration that it's the best for my back. I am willing to try any different configuration, I just don't know what else to try. Do you think because the PLB had only 1' of 28 ild that the 3' medium is too much for me? But then would just soft and firm be too firm? I am so confused lol. I've waited almost a year to be able to get another latex mattress and now that I have it I can't get comfortable. With the PLB, I was comfortable on the first night even though it wasn't "plush" and then when I added the topper it was great.

My other question is, does the wood foundation have anything to do with the feel of the latex being firm? I don't remember what the PLB foundation was because I didn't put it together myself. I'm pretty sure it was wood? It wasn't as heavy or solid though. I don't know if that's contributing or not but wanted to ask. Thank you so much for your help!

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07 Nov 2019 23:41 #22 by Phoenix
Hi beth819.

Thanks for addressing and clarifying the questions I had. There is much interest in Talalay latex and your responses may be helpful to TMU consumer-members considering this type of mattress purchase.

When laying on my side, I normally sleep with a pillow in between my legs. For example, if I'm laying on my right side, my right lower leg barely touches the surface of the mattress, with or without the pillow in between my legs. With my arm, it rests right next to my pillow and my forearm barely touches the surface of the mattress. I'm not sure how else to explain it?


Not that I am a specialist but ergonomically this is starting to make a little more sense now. Generally speaking, it is not possible to diagnose through a mattress forum the exact cause of your discomfort and pains as there are too many interrelated variables involved. But as an exercise I’ll make a few assumptions to see if this is helpful to you…. from your recent description my guess is that when sleeping on your side your legs are only slightly bent and more straight. You are probably not sleeping curled in a more fetal position. Even though you are fairly light it may also be that you also carry much of your weight in the hip area which may be causing more sinking-in of your hips comparatively to your extremities that barely touch the mattress. If your body is also slightly inclined towards the front as you hug or recline on the pillow between your legs this could also lock the knees and would create a fulcrum point. A as the lower legs are not properly supported some tension is created by the body trying to compensate for the lack of support of the lower leg and arm which could explain why you started to have some pains. At your BMI you would not need a thicker mattress/topper combo but I understand that you like more plushness so you’d certainly need to experiment a bit with this to get the right balance of comfort/support.

All of the configurations I tried made my back hurt. So now I am back to soft/medium/firm in the cover and I have an old 1 1/2' memory foam topper on top of that. This I am sinking into when laying on my back and slightly when on my side, but my back still hurts a bit. It's the only configuration that is working for me at the moment and has a little plush feel. However, I would prefer to have an all latex mattress because I know with the right configuration that it's the best for my back…With the PLB, I was comfortable on the first night even though it wasn't "plush" and then when I added the topper it was great.


The LMF 3" soft 19 ILD/ 3" medium 28 ILD/ 3" firm 38 ILD Talalay mattress plus 1 1/2" memory foam topper configuration you describe seems closer to the PLB one you preferred of 2" 19 ILD and 1" 28 ILD comfort layers and 6" 36 ILD support layer with 2" 19 ILD topper. It looks like you are considering replacing the older 1 1/2" memory foam topper with a 2" 19 ILD Talalay latex topper as you had before with your PLB mattress. In your earlier post, you mentioned trying an additional 1" or 2" topper as a possibility but because of the pains, you are mentioning I’d do first a bit of experimenting and taking some notes before deciding which direction to go. I would focus first on trying to find a combination where your leg and arm “touch the mattress” and are supported. You could try to eliminate the medium layer from the cover to see if the lower legs touch the mattress when lying on your side and how your body reacts. I would also get in touch with LMF and describe your findings as they know their mattresses and materials better than anyone else and had great success with duplicating latex configs and matching to certain needs and preferences.

Do you think because the PLB had only 1' of 28 ILD that the 3' medium is too much for me? But then would just soft and firm be too firm?


You have a few variables combined here and not only a shift from 1" 28 ILD to 3" medium. The comfort layer thickness is different as well and as all layers work together all changes will be compounded. If you test more objectively and specifically for alignment using these suggestions and the more subtle cues from your body in conjunction with some help then you should be much closer to your ideal than if you only test for more subjective ideas of "comfort".

My other question is, does the wood foundation have anything to do with the feel of the latex being firm? I don't remember what the PLB foundation was because I didn't put it together myself. I'm pretty sure it was wood? It wasn't as heavy or solid though.



When you say "it wasn't as heavy or solid though," are you describing your new DIY/ LMF foundation as compared to the PLB foundation? A "solid" surface on slats should not impact the "feel" or "firmness" of the mattress itself.

Phoenix :)

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08 Nov 2019 10:22 #23 by beth819
Hi Phoenix,

Thank you helping me! Your explanation about the alignment of my body makes a lot of sense. My legs are definitely not curled a lot and are more straight. I also think the upper half of my body is more inclined like you are saying too. My hips are not sinking in enough, but I get what you are saying in relation to the rest of my body. I actually took the memory foam topper off the other day because I noticed my hips were hurting me when standing as if my alignment was off and that was concerning to me. So the past couple of days I've been sleeping on the soft/medium/firm with no topper on top and my back is still hurting. Are you saying to try only the soft and firm layers in the cover just to see how my leg and arm alignment is and not focus on the comfort for now?

Before I purchased the DYI bed I asked LMF what would closely replicate the PLB mattress and they said that the soft/medium/firm would be close and that I wouldn't miss the extra 1" of soft so that's why I went with it. Now I'm thinking that maybe a 2' soft and a 6' core and adding a 2 topper would've been better? Not sure.

For the foundation, I was referring to the LMF foundation being a lot heavier/thicker wood than the foundation I had with PLB. When I get into bed I can feel right down to the foundation and when I switch sides at night I hear and feel the latex hitting the foundation, kind of like a ripple effect. Not sure if I am describing this right. The only comparison I can make is that with my PLB mattress, I never noticed or felt that the foundation was there. Again, thank you for helping me figure this out!

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08 Nov 2019 23:54 #24 by beth819
Hi Phoenix,

I did some rearranging of the layers. I took out the medium layer and tried soft and firm in the cover. It is slightly better with my lower leg and arm touching the mattress a bit more, but my knee goes up and doesn't touch the mattress. I think there might be a little less pressure on my hips too. I couldn't leave the mattress like that for long because it was uncomfortable/hard being that close to the foundation. Then I tried soft/soft/firm, and it's back to the same alignment issues of the soft/medium/firm. What other combinations should I try? Thank you!

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10 Nov 2019 14:53 #25 by Sensei
Hey beth819,

Thanks for all of the great info you're providing our TMU forum members , your observations and details will be useful to others exploring the DIY mattress shopping experience. Based on previous posts, here's a recap of sorts regarding your trial and Phoenix's observations:

Pure Latex Bliss/ Previous Mattress
LMF DIY/ Current Mattress
LMF DIY/ with Topper added
2" 19 ILD talalay topper2" 19 ILD talalay topper
2" 19 ILD talalay comfort layer3" soft 19 ILD talalay layer3" soft 19 ILD talalay layer
1" 28 ILD talalay comfort layer3" medium 28 ILD talalay layer3" medium 28 ILD talalay layer
6" 36 ILD talalay support layer3" firm 38 ILD talalay layer3" firm 38 ILD talalay layer


I did some rearranging of the layers. I took out the medium layer and tried soft and firm in the cover. It is slightly better with my lower leg and arm touching the mattress a bit more, but my knee goes up and doesn't touch the mattress. I think there might be a little less pressure on my hips too. I couldn't leave the mattress like that for long because it was uncomfortable/hard being that close to the foundation. Then I tried soft/soft/firm, and it's back to the same alignment issues of the soft/medium/firm. What other combinations should I try? Thank you!



Were you able to reach LMF for their response to your different sleep trials? Saw that Phoenix suggested contacting them directly, this would be the best path to solving your personalization of their components. You can reach @latexmattressfactory directly from TMU forum here , they are very responsive to questions and have the direct knowledge of how their components would work best for you. Also, according to their Latex Mattress Factory site , toppers can be exchanged/ returned for 30 days less a small return shipping fee. May be the way to go if you want still to try an additional 1" or 2" topper for more of the PLB experience you liked, I would definitely ask them their thoughts on that too.

Thanks,
Sensei :)

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
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