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15 Sep 2015 19:09 - 15 Sep 2015 19:10 #51 by DHC
Thanks again, Phoenix. Everything you say makes sense, and I've been reading the tutorial and all sorts of other things to which it and you have linked for the past hour and I'm learning quite a lot. I'm still on it now and will read more just now, including about the differences between the all latex vs latex and foam. But I did want to quickly post the specs for the Sleep Country Natura mattress, since I received them today. Here we go:

From bottom to top:

6” plant based foam core – this is regular foam mixed with a % of plant based materials which is soy. The soy is approx. 12-15% of the core.

2” talalay latex – this is a medium firm latex – the latex is blended so it does contain both natural and synthetic materials

Wool – the wool is 100% wool, it is not blended with any other materials

Cover – it is a cotton/polyester blend cover with 1” of quilting foam in the cover (same foam as listed above in the core, the plant based)

In total the mattress would be around 9.5 inches thick.
Last edit: 15 Sep 2015 19:10 by DHC.

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15 Sep 2015 20:24 - 15 Sep 2015 20:25 #52 by Phoenix
Hi DHC,

From bottom to top:

6” plant based foam core – this is regular foam mixed with a % of plant based materials which is soy. The soy is approx. 12-15% of the core.

2” talalay latex – this is a medium firm latex – the latex is blended so it does contain both natural and synthetic materials

Wool – the wool is 100% wool, it is not blended with any other materials

Cover – it is a cotton/polyester blend cover with 1” of quilting foam in the cover (same foam as listed above in the core, the plant based)


The specs you listed are missing the density of the polyfoam in the base layer which I would want to know (I would make sure that it was at least 1.8 lb density as long as you aren't in an unusually high weight range in which case I would look for 2 lb density polyfoam or higher). The Talalay latex and the wool are both high quality materials that wouldn't be a weak link in the mattress and the 1" of quilting foam is also inside the guidelines that I would normally suggest which is "no more than about an inch or so" of lower quality or unknown layers so you wouldn't need to find out the density of the quilting foam.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 15 Sep 2015 20:25 by Phoenix.

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15 Sep 2015 21:13 - 15 Sep 2015 21:14 #53 by DHC
Hi Phoenix,

Thanks again. I will get those details. It seems this mattress, though very comfortable and firm when I slept on it, is mostly foam. The Classic 2000 from Sleeptek was 6" latex in the core. From reading the post you linked to, where you speak of the merits of the materials, it seems that foam is a waste, esp if you're heavier, as that fellow was, and as I am, between 190-200. Would this Natura bed even last/hold/support me? It's entire core is foam, whereas the Classic 2000, for example, is latex. Is my only option, adding another $1000 to the $1500 for the Natura mattress, to get the Classic 2000 or something else?

Thanks,
Dave
Last edit: 15 Sep 2015 21:14 by DHC.

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15 Sep 2015 21:38 #54 by Phoenix
Hi DHCC,

It seems this mattress, though very comfortable and firm when I slept on it, is mostly foam. The Classic 2000 from Sleeptek was 6" latex in the core. From reading the post you linked to, where you speak of the merits of the materials, it seems that foam is a waste, esp if you're heavier, as that fellow was, and as I am, between 190-200.


Both mattresses are made from foam materials (which includes latex foam, memory foam, and polyfoam) but of course most types and densities of polyfoam are a lower cost material than most types and densities of memory foam or most types and blends of latex. I certainly wouldn't call polyfoam a waste though since you couldn't sleep on just a comfort layer by itself and the polyfoam support core provides the deep support that is needed under the softer latex comfort layers. There is more about primary or "deep" support and secondary or "surface" support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the "roles" of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between "support" and "pressure relief" and "feel".

There are many people that can't afford an all latex mattress that is both thick enough and has the combination of layering that will provide them with suitable comfort and support and for these people a latex/polyfoam hybrid can provide many of the benefits of sleeping on latex at a much lower cost (although there are many latex/polyfoam hybrids that aren't particularly good "value" that can sometimes approach the cost of an all latex mattress). There are even some people who may prefer a polyfoam/latex hybrid over an all latex mattress and there are also some all polyfoam mattresses that use high quality versions of polyfoam that many people sleep very well on and would make very durable choices as well.

Polyfoam comes in a very wide range of firmness levels and different densities that range from low quality/density versions which are "junk" that will soften and break down very quickly to very high quality/density versions which are very durable and in some cases are comparable to latex in terms of durability ... especially in the deeper support layers of a mattress which generally aren't the weakest link of a mattress.

A latex/polyfoam hybrid that uses at least 1.8 lb density polyfoam would generally be suitable for someone in your weight range and even for those that are in much higher weight ranges a higher density support core in the range of 2 lb density or higher would be a very durable material as well.

The choice between different types of materials and mattresses is generally a preference and a budget choice (see this article ) and any type or combination of materials that are durable enough for the weight range of the person sleeping on it and that are a suitable "match" in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) can make a very suitable and very durable choice for a mattress.

Phoenix

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21 Sep 2015 13:07 #55 by DHC
Hi Phoenix,

Thank you again for your helpful and quick response. My apologies for the delay, but I contacted Natura and they only got back to me this afternoon. So it's 1.55 lbs density in the core. That is on the very low end, as noted in the article you sent. I'm about 200 lbs.

The reason I emphasized the superior quality of a latex core is precisely for the reason noted in the article you linked to, namely, the durability. I should emphasize that they knocked another $100 off the price of the Natura mattress, down to below $1500. If you or anyone else has suggestions for queen mattresses in that price range, or, more accurately, up to $2000 taxes in, that are superior, better deals, even with a denser polyfoam core, etc., then I'd love to here them. I am doing some research, but I certainly don't know much of what's out there. I almost want to buy the Natura and get it over with (under $2000 everything in, including foundation and frame), but I will do some more research today and tomorrow before making a final decision. If the Natura had a higher density, I'd buy it asap.

Thanks again and I'll write more when I have more.

Dave

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21 Sep 2015 14:51 #56 by Phoenix
Hi DHC,

Thank you again for your helpful and quick response. My apologies for the delay, but I contacted Natura and they only got back to me this afternoon. So it's 1.55 lbs density in the core. That is on the very low end, as noted in the article you sent. I'm about 200 lbs.


While the deeper layers of a mattress aren't generally the weakest link in a mattress ... with only 2" of latex on top of it and with your weight you may be compressing the support core more than someone that was lighter and I would look for a higher density base foam (at least 1.8 lbs).

While a lower density base foam is a reasonable compromise for lower budget mattresses ... it would still be a higher risk purchase than a mattress that used a higher density base foam and I wouldn't be comfortable with 1.55 lb density polyfoam in a mattress in the higher budget range you are looking at.

If you or anyone else has suggestions for queen mattresses in that price range, or, more accurately, up to $2000 taxes in, that are superior, better deals, even with a denser polyfoam core, etc., then I'd love to here them. I am doing some research, but I certainly don't know much of what's out there. I almost want to buy the Natura and get it over with (under $2000 everything in, including foundation and frame), but I will do some more research today and tomorrow before making a final decision. If the Natura had a higher density, I'd buy it asap.


I don't keep a record of the individual mattresses that the retailers and manufacturers in the hundreds of forum lists throughout the forum carry on their floor (it would be a bigger job than anyone could keep up with in a constantly changing market) but checking their websites and making some preliminary phone calls to the retailers/manufacturers that are on the forum list that are in reasonable driving distance is always a good idea before you visit any store anyway. This will tell you which of them carry mattresses that would meet your specific criteria, are transparent about the quality and durability of the materials in their mattresses (see this article ), and that carry the type of mattresses that you are interested in testing in the budget range you are comfortable with. Once you have checked their websites and/or talked with the ones that interest you then you will be in a much better position to decide on the ones that you are most interested in visiting based on the results of your preliminary research and conversations.

There is also more about the 3 most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase to fine tune the mattress or the exchange/return options that are available to you).

There isn't a "formula" that can be used to assess or "calculate" value because there are so many different variables and criteria involved that are more or less important to different people that may be very different from someone else and because the "value" of a mattress purchase is always relative to the other finalists you are considering or to the other mattresses that are available to you in the area or online but in general terms I would agree with you that there are probably better quality/value mattresses available in the Toronto list .

If you are comfortable with an online purchase then some of the options that are listed in post #21 here may also be worth considering.

Phoenix

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22 Sep 2015 19:37 - 22 Sep 2015 20:00 #57 by DHC
Hi Phoenix,

Thanks again. So I think I have to abandon the idea of purchasing the Natura Sleep Country mattress I described, even though at around $1450, it was the cheapest I could find that I still thought was quite comfortable when I slept on it, but perhaps that's not saying much given Sleep Country's selection. I am doing more research and work now, and today I looked through your list and called Dormio for starters. I had a nice long conversation with someone there, and he was quite helpful and patient with me. For my weight and brood figure, 200 lbs, brood shouldered and 5"11, and also a side sleeper due to the herniated discs, he recommended at least 10" of latex. He said I could do 8, but that would be the minimum and 6 inches would just be too little. He suggestion the Dormio Euro for 8" at $2000 ( dormio.ca/product/dormio-euro-mattress/ ) or the better Dolce Vita for a 10" mattress at $2700 ( dormio.ca/product/dormio-dolce-vita-mattress/ ). I will make more calls tomorrow and hopefully this week I will make it out to some places and check out their offerings/lie on them. But, of course, this is a different price range than what I was considering with the Natura bed. He also said that he wouldn't recommend polyfoam and that they did only latex as the most durable and best material. Fair enough. Perhaps I should make the greater invest and have a mattress for life or for a few decades at least. Your thoughts would, of course, be appreciated.

I'll write more after some more research and calls. Thanks as always - you've been wonderful as I try to raise myself from my ignorance and find something that will help with my pain and improve my health.

Dave

P,S. I just learned or think I learned that Sleeptek makes Dormio and Obasan? At least according to this: nowtoronto.com/lifestyle/ecoholic/sleep-...-the-mattress-guide/ . I was going to look into Obasan more and also Soma. But they all seem to be the same company? I'm a but confused here I guess, as I thought at least Dormio was independent.
Last edit: 22 Sep 2015 20:00 by DHC.

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22 Sep 2015 22:24 #58 by Phoenix
Hi DHC,

It's good to see that you are taking the time to phone and talk to some of the options on the list before you visit them in person and making some preliminary phone calls to the retailers/manufacturers that are on the list that are in reasonable driving distance is always a good idea before you visit any store anyway. This will tell you which of them carry mattresses that would meet your specific criteria, are transparent about the quality and durability of the materials in their mattresses (see this article ), and that carry the type of mattresses that you are interested in testing in the budget range you are comfortable with and that have exchange or return policies that you are comfortable with and will save you a great deal of time and possible frustration. Once you have checked their websites and/or talked with the ones that interest you then you will be in a much better position to decide on the ones that you are most interested in visiting based on the results of your preliminary research and conversations.

He also said that he wouldn't recommend polyfoam and that they did only latex as the most durable and best material. Fair enough. Perhaps I should make the greater invest and have a mattress for life or for a few decades at least. Your thoughts would, of course, be appreciated.


Assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the guidelines here ... the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses (see this article ) are more of a preference and a budget choice than a "better/worse" choice.

Latex hybrid mattresses can certainly make a good choice and depending on which type of "latex hybrid" you may be considering ... there is more about all latex mattresses vs latex/polyfoam hybrids in post #2 here and there is also more about innerspring/latex hybrids vs all latex mattresses in post #13 here and the other posts it links to. Some people prefer latex hybrid mattresses to all latex mattresses either in terms of PPP or because their budget doesn't allow for an all latex mattress but the best way to know which type of mattress you prefer is based on your own careful testing.

P,S. I just learned or think I learned that Sleeptek makes Dormio and Obasan?


Obasan is a SleepTek brand name. SleepTek also makes some of the mattresses that Dormio sells but not all of them.

SleepTek is a manufacturer and Dormio and Soma are retailers and all of them are very different companies.

Phoenix

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22 Sep 2015 22:46 - 22 Sep 2015 22:52 #59 by DHC
Thanks, Phoenix. I'm actually taking your advice, especially now that I have a little more time. And I'm listening to you about the hybrid beds, which I haven't ruled out despite what he said. You've been most helpful and haven't steered me wrong with all the wonderful information.

I'm wondering what you think about the specs for the beds given my specs and about the prices. I'm looking at some Obasan beds and the 8" ones are more expensive than the 11" Dormio I linked to. In fact, to get a Obasan that's comparable in price, around $2500-2600 to the 2700 Dormio mattress, I'd have to go with a 6", which if the guy I spoke to today is right, is far too little support for me/my weight - he said I'd just sink to the core.. I suppose I don't know why the Obasan is so much more expensive for comparable thickness. Well, I guess, for example, price wise, this one www.somasleep.ca/product/173/ would compare to this one that I linked to earlier: dormio.ca/product/dormio-dolce-vita-mattress/ . And the 8" from Dormio would be quite a bit cheaper: dormio.ca/product/dormio-euro-mattress/ .

I see. Now I have them straight. I guess then the question is who makes Dormio's other mattress, say the ones I linked to? Perhaps I should call back and ask. I just assumed they made all their own mattresses.
Last edit: 22 Sep 2015 22:52 by DHC.

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22 Sep 2015 23:14 - 22 Sep 2015 23:18 #60 by Phoenix
Hi DHC,

I'm wondering what you think about the specs for the beds given my specs and about the prices. I'm looking at some Obasan beds and the 8" ones are more expensive than the 11" Dormio I linked to. In fact, to get a Obasan that's comparable in price, around $2500-2600 to the 2700 Dormio mattress, I'd have to go with a 6", which if the guy I spoke to today is right, is far too little support for me/my weight - he said I'd just sink to the core.. I suppose I don't know why the Obasan is so much more expensive for comparable thickness. Well, I guess, for example, price wise, this one www.somasleep.ca/product/173/ would compare to this one that I linked to earlier: dormio.ca/product/dormio-dolce-vita-mattress/. And the 8" from Dormio would be quite a bit cheaper: dormio.ca/product/dormio-euro-mattress/.


I would always keep in mind that the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see post #2 here ).

Comfort and PPP is always the most important part of the "value" of any mattress purchase because no matter what the quality of the materials or how durable a mattress may be ... if you don't sleep well on it then it would have little value to you regardless of the price.

I can't speak to how any mattress will "feel" for someone else because this is too subjective and relative to different body types, sleeping positions, and individual preferences, sensitivities, and circumstances ... outside of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can't "feel" and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label (or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new).

Since all of the mattresses you linked are "all latex" mattresses ... they would be closely comparable in terms of durability but they are all different designs so you would likely find that one of them will be a better "match" for you in terms of comfort and PPP than the others.

While the thickness of a mattress is only one of many factors in a mattress design that can make a difference in whether a mattress is a good "match for any particular person ... there is more about the effect of thickness in post #14 here . While there are always exceptions ... I would agree that based on "averages" a 6" latex mattress probably wouldn't be a good "match" for most people in your weight range (although once again your own personal testing or experience is the only way to know for sure).

I see. Now I have them straight. I guess then the question is who makes Dormio's other mattress, say the ones I linked to? Perhaps I should call back and ask. I just assumed they made all their own mattresses.


The name of their suppliers isn't particularly relevant since a mattress is only as good as its design and the materials and components inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label and not all retailers are comfortable sharing the name of their suppliers for competitive reasons but if you ask them they will certainly be happy to provide you with any information that they are comfortable sharing.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 22 Sep 2015 23:18 by Phoenix.

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