TOPIC:

For Christmas we ordered the 12 in Bamboo Bliss in a King, cushion firm (level 5). We are side sleepers (although I find I end up on my back a lot). When the mattress arrived I was super impressed with packaging and how easy the setup was. For the first two weeks the bed was a dream. I have done a lot of research on this site and read where it was good to rotate the latex bed every few weeks to give an even break in period. So we did. One thing that we noticed is the firmness does not hold up. So I reached out to Brooklyn Bedding and they told me to remove the cover and that helped a little. We also flipped the top latex piece and for about 2-3 days it was perfect (no back pain) but then firmness weakens and back pain comes back. They then suggested I re-inspect my bases and they are solid and very level. All this to say my back pain is back again and we cannot find a solution. When I sleep on our twin firm mattress I do not wake up with back pain.


Let me know if anyone has any similar experience or suggestions. Had I known latex doesn't hold its firmness I would have sent back the bed or switched out the toppers.

Hi energizedchris,

When you first came to the site your first post included this ...

We purchased a bed a few weeks ago from a clearance center with a no return policy and it was too soft for me. My lower back pain came back just after a few nights on it. So we are selling it to a friend who prefers softer beds and taking a nice hit. Lesson learned.

This is a good indicator that a mattress that is too soft for you can cause you back pain and this is something that would be fairly normal for most people because the most common issue with a mattress that is too soft for the person sleeping on it is back pain. This means that a mattress that is a good match for you in terms of PPP would probably need to be a little firmer.

For Christmas we ordered the 12 in Bamboo Bliss in a King, cushion firm (level 5). We are side sleepers (although I find I end up on my back a lot). When the mattress arrived I was super impressed with packaging and how easy the setup was.

After asking some questions on the site you ended up buying a Bamboo Bliss from Brooklyn Bedding. While an online choice can be risky because you can't test a mattress in person ... in the case of the Bamboo Bliss you had many options available after a purchase to exchange the firmness of the comfort layer and even return the mattress so this lowers the risk of an online purchase significantly and you made a good choice because of the many options that are built in to purchasing a Bamboo Bliss. For some reason however it appears that you didn't take advantage of the options you had available.

For the first two weeks the bed was a dream. I have done a lot of research on this site and read where it was good to rotate the latex bed every few weeks to give an even break in period. So we did. One thing that we noticed is the firmness does not hold up. So I reached out to Brooklyn Bedding and they told me to remove the cover and that helped a little. We also flipped the top latex piece and for about 2-3 days it was perfect (no back pain) but then firmness weakens and back pain comes back. They then suggested I re-inspect my bases and they are solid and very level. All this to say my back pain is back again and we cannot find a solution. When I sleep on our twin firm mattress I do not wake up with back pain.

Let me know if anyone has any similar experience or suggestions. Had I known latex doesn't hold its firmness I would have sent back the bed or switched out the toppers.

As you hopefully know from the research you have done ... latex is the most durable foam material in the industry and while all mattresses will break in to some extent ... latex will soften less, both initially and over the long term, than other foam materials. There will always be some changes over the course of the first few weeks as a mattress breaks in and the cover stretches and loses its initial stiffness and the materials lose any initial "false firmness" (which in the case of latex is very little) and then things will stabilize. Once you have slept on a mattress for a few weeks if you were having back pain then it wouldn't be because the latex isn't "holding it's firmness" but because the firmness level you chose wasn't the best match for you in terms of PPP. Based on your history the odds are high that the mattress you chose is too soft (although a mattress that is too firm can also cause alignment issues and back pain). This also wouldn't be uncommon if the mattress you chose was "on the edge" of being too soft for you before it was broken in.

Because nobody can predict with 100% certainty whether any mattress you buy will be the best match for you until after you sleep on it ... this is where the value of a trial period and the ability to exchange your comfort layers comes into play. In the case of Brooklyn Bedding this is 120 days which would have taken you into April. Once a mattress has broken in after a few weeks if you are experiencing symptoms such as back pain when you sleep on it then the first thing to do is to pick up the phone and talk with the company where you purchased the mattress. What normally happens then is that they will make a few suggestions (as they did) to see if there are some simple solutions that will help you and if none of the more simple solutions works then the next step would be to exchange the comfort layer for one that is likely to be more suitable for you. This is the reason for the exchange option in the first place.

It seems that for some reason you chose not to do this and this is where you made your first mistake because this is the whole point of having a trial period and an exchange policy (or a return policy) in the first place.

After a few weeks if you were having issues on your mattress then had you exchanged your comfort layer for something firmer then you would have been able to find out whether this was the reason for your back pain. In most cases this would be the solution but in the worst case if it's not then you would still have options available and the "final option" would be to return the mattress because there will always be a small percentage of people where the reason for back pain on a mattress may be something else (needing a firmer support core or possibly a different type of mattress completely).

Brooklyn Bedding never answered my last email I sent to them back in July. They were very helpful until their quick fixes didn't work. Ultimately I am disappointed in the product and their service. I would say buyer beware.

I really don't understand the basis for your comments here and what you are saying makes no sense to me. First of all when you have more complex issues then emails aren't an effective way to communicate them and the thing to do is pick up the phone and talk with them. Second if for some reason an email goes unanswered then once again the thing to do is pick up the phone and talk with them.

You purchased your mattress in December and you first started noticing back pain a few weeks later during the initial break in period. This by itself isn't so unusual although it would be a minority of people but it's certainly the first indicator that you may need a comfort exchange. When you first talked with them they did exactly what they were "supposed to do" and what any good company would do which is to try some simple solutions first so you don't end up doing something that wouldn't solve the problem. When those solutions didn't work out for you then the the next step would be a layer exchange. Again for some reason you didn't do this. It is your responsibility to decide on this not Brooklyn Bedding's. Had you taken advantage of the options you had available then your issues would have been solved long ago by the end of the trial period one way or another either by exchanging the comfort layer and ending up with a firmness choice that works for you or by returning the mattress completely if there were no other options available to you.

If you were talking to them in July then your trial period would have been over.

The reason I am being so direct with you is so that others can learn from your mistakes and not make the same errors in judgement. Rather than posting "buyer beware" ... I think a more appropriate comment would have been "learn from my mistakes" or "take advantage of your options when it seems clear that you need to do so" rather than putting the responsibility for what you chose not to do on Brooklyn Bedding.

Even now if you were to pick up the phone and talk with them they may be able to offer you some suggestions that may help (even though your trial period has ended) but "warning" people about Brooklyn Bedding for mistakes that were the result of your own inaction or poor judgement or suggesting that latex (or any high quality material) doesn't "hold its firmness" after a few weeks when this certainly isn't the case and all that seems to have happened is that you chose a firmness that is too soft for you just doesn't make any sense ... and it certainly won't solve the issues you are having.

Phoenix

This is a lot to take in. I do apologize for saying "buyer beware". I researched my emails to Brooklyn and you are correct, my first contact was after my trial period. My notes say that my wife and I both felt the mattress wasn't the same after a few months of use. We made the mistake of waiting a few more weeks to contact them which put us outside the trial period. I did pick up the phone and have several conversations with them, thank you for assuming I didn't though. They even indicated that if their suggestions didn't work there was a bigger issue going on. My frustration came from them not responding to me after I said tried everything they suggested and it didn't work. I even asked if BUYING a new foundation or topper would help, no response. I came here to look for suggestions on things to try. I apologize if I came off too strong but you can imagine my frustration of being on mattress #2 and still not great results. Hopefully now that my comment of "buyer beware" is taken back we can have a meaningful conversation of what to do to help. I definitely understand you are more educated than me in this area, that is what brought me here in the first place. Even though I have researched this and feel better educated (thanks to this site) I am still learning and prone to making mistakes.

They just responded to me and suggested I add an additional latex topper to make the bed softer. They suspect that because I am a side sleeper and 155 lbs that I am falling asleep on my side and ended up on my back or stomach because the bed is too stiff. They said if that doesn't work I can switch out the layer for $50 and get a firmer one. Topper will be $400. I might give it a go.

Hi energizedchris,

Thanks for modifying your comments ... it's a good first step in taking a more realistic approach to solving the issues you are having.

They even indicated that if their suggestions didn't work there was a bigger issue going on. My frustration came from them not responding to me after I said tried everything they suggested and it didn't work. I even asked if BUYING a new foundation or topper would help, no response.

The problem here is that you are asking a question that is impossible for anyone to answer no matter how much they may know or be willing to help until the underlying reasons for any issues you are having are clear. Even then there is no guarantee of success because it can take some trial and error and "real life" experience before you can confirm that a change that seems to be a good idea "in theory" works just as well in practice. While it's easier to make suggestions that would work for most people "on average" ... people are so different from each other that what works for someone else or even a group of people that may seem similar to you may not work as well for you. Finding solutions can take some detective work or involve a process of elimination or some trial and error.

If the issue is not with the foundation or if adding a topper isn't likely to be effective because your mattress is already too soft then you would only be making choices based on random chance and this can become costly if you end up trying many different things that have a lower chance of success and none of them solve the underlying issues you are having. The most common outcome with this more "random" approach is frustration. In these cases the best approach is always to have a more detailed conversation on the phone so that they can help "talk you through" the options you have and use their experience and knowledge to help you decide what to do that would have the "highest possible" chance of success based on their experiences with other people that seem similar to you. This doesn't mean that any suggestion that anyone makes will work for you ... only that you would be making a choice that would have the "best possible" chance of success based on "averages".

Now that you are in a time frame that is 8 months after your purchase ... I would make sure that you "set your expectations" realistically so that you fully understand that the best options (such as a layer exchange) may no longer be possible ... at least under the terms of their exchange policy ... and that anything that may be possible outside of buying a new mattress or a new top layer at full retail price will be an exception and isn't an "expectation" on your part. It's also important to realize that any suggestions that anyone else can make (whether it's me or BB) would be based on "best efforts" to help you but that there are no guarantees of success that any suggestion will work (especially if there are other issues or reasons involved in your experience that someone else may not know about or be able to identify). Sometimes trying to "diagnose" sleeping issues can be very complex because there can be many reasons for the same set of symptoms and it would be similar to a doctor trying to diagnose the symptoms of a patient based on general descriptions on a phone call or a forum without being able to examine them in person. Any suggestions would be based on "probabilities" that come from experience and in working with others and not based on a special ability to be able tell you with certainty why you are having the symptoms that you are having when you sleep on your mattress.

Outside of talking with them in more detail and asking them what options they can suggest or any exceptions that they can make (again keeping in mind that the best that anyone can do is "best efforts" based on averages and their experience in working with others with similar issues) ... the first step would be for you to decide whether you believe your mattress is too soft or too firm because both can lead to back pain issues due to lack of support. Keep in mind that nobody can feel what you feel on your mattress or see you sleeping on the mattress over the course of the night which means that suggestions would be based more on the specifics and accuracy of your feedback than anything else. Too soft can mean that the heavier parts of your body are "sinking in" too far which can cause alignment issues. Too firm can lead to lack of support under the more recessed parts of the body such as the small of the back or the waist or to "twisting away" from excess pressure with part of your body while you sleep (such as a half back half side sleeping position) which can lead to rotational alignment issues which can also cause back pain.

There is also more information in post #2 here and the posts it links to about some of the more common symptoms that people may have on a mattress that can also help with the detective work that may be necessary to decide on what type of changes may have the best chance of success.

If your mattress is too firm then either replacing your latex layer with a softer version or choosing a topper using the information in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to would be helpful.

If your mattress is too soft then replacing your top layer with a firmer layer would probably be the most effective approach but some of the information in post #4 here may also be helpful.

This should give you enough (maybe more than enough) information for you to know the options you have and decide which of them would have the best chance of success.

Phoenix

Thank you for all the resources. I have been reading a lot. I called Brooklyn Bedding and they have big a huge help talking me through my options. They still think going with a 3" Talalay 24 ILD layer on top of my 12" Bamboo bliss will help with the lower back pain. I weigh 155 lbs and I am a side sleeper that ends up on my stomach and back a lot. They think due to pressure points on hips and shoulders. Their suggestion is to add a little softness to keep me on my side. I can take advantage of their exchange policy this time .

Our current set up is :

12" Bamboo bliss Level 5 medium/firm
8" BB HD Core
28 ILD

BB is suggesting adding the 3 " Talalay in a 24 ILD. They like the idea of adding more latex to sleep on.

Will this be too soft?

I will add. After looking at your buyers guide firmness chart. I had my wife lay of her side (just like she sleeps) and it appears her hips sit lower than her shoulders. I did the same thing and she said my shoulders were also too high.

I am a little confused. Is the bed too firm, not allowing our shoulders to sink and because our hips are heavier they sink more? Or is the bed too soft which is why our hips sink more than our shoulders?

Just talked to BB again. After sharing that information and chart they now think I need a 36 ILD instead of a softer layer. They no longer carry a 32 ILD. Wondering how big a jump this will be from 28 ILD. On the buyers firmness guide we are both the middle picture on the 2nd row.

Hi energizedchris,

I called Brooklyn Bedding and they have big a huge help talking me through my options. They still think going with a 3" Talalay 24 ILD layer on top of my 12" Bamboo bliss will help with the lower back pain. I weigh 155 lbs and I am a side sleeper that ends up on my stomach and back a lot. They think due to pressure points on hips and shoulders. Their suggestion is to add a little softness to keep me on my side. I can take advantage of their exchange policy this time .

Our current set up is :

12" Bamboo bliss Level 5 medium/firm
8" BB HD Core
28 ILD

BB is suggesting adding the 3 " Talalay in a 24 ILD. They like the idea of adding more latex to sleep on.

Will this be too soft?

Their thinking makes sense (softer would keep you on your side more and would provide more secondary support in the more recessed parts of your sleeping profile) if the cause of your issues is that you are "twisting away from pressure" and ending up in positions (stomach especially) that your body doesn't do well with but the only way to confirm any theory is with your own personal experience sleeping on the mattress.

I will add. After looking at your buyers guide firmness chart. I had my wife lay of her side (just like she sleeps) and it appears her hips sit lower than her shoulders. I did the same thing and she said my shoulders were also too high.

I would keep in mind that the chart is somewhat "idealized" to provide examples of what too soft or too firm can look like but nobody sleeps with their spine perfectly straight and each person's body and sensitivity is different. The goal is also to make sure your spine is in alignment regardless of how far your hips or shoulders sink in because your shoulders and hips have different widths and surface areas and will sink in different amounts. Checking for alignment involves a combination of visual cues and personal experience that confirms that your muscles can "let go" and completely relax in all your sleeping positions. How long you spend in each sleeping position can also make a significant difference because most people would be fine if they spend a little time in "less than perfect" alignment and then change positions but would have "symptoms" if they sleep out of alignment in some sleeping positions for longer periods of time. In the end ... the most reliable way to know whether a mattress is a good match for you is based on the actual symptoms (or lack of them) that you experience when you sleep on a mattress because outside of a sleep lab it may not be possible to know for certain all the specifics of how you sleep and how long you sleep in each position.

Just talked to BB again. After sharing that information and chart they now think I need a 36 ILD instead of a softer layer. They no longer carry a 32 ILD. Wondering how big a jump this will be from 28 ILD. On the buyers firmness guide we are both the middle picture on the 2nd row.

This also makes sense and is probably a higher probability choice if your hips are sagging too much but I'm not clear if you are thinking about a layer exchange (replacing your current layer) or adding 3" of 36 ILD on top of your current mattress. I would probably consider the exchange. I don't know how to answer "how big" a change it will be because this is subjective but it would be noticeably firmer (it's a jump of two firmness levels). The thinking here seems to be an even better match with your experiences based on your comments and history (you don't have back pain on a firmer mattress) and a mattress that is too soft is a more common cause of lower back issues than a mattress that is too firm. This could help prevent your hips from sinking in too far (especially if you are spending significant amounts of time on your stomach) and if this is the underlying issue then it would certainly help but again your actual sleeping experience is the only way to confirm any "theory". If you make an exchange and then find that you are experiencing pressure issues on your shoulders because it's too firm then you can still add a topper to provide additional softness and pressure relief for your shoulders.

Phoenix

Big help Phoenix. Thank you. Their recommendation was to use 36 ILD instead of 28 ILD.

I am currently using 28 ILD without wool and polyfoam cover (to make firmer). I am definitely afraid of the 36 being too firm (for my wife mainly). I do like the idea of using 36 ILD inside the cover so that we add a layer of comfort on top of the support. Will this be too firm still? Only way is to try and find out. Good thing is I have 30 days to exchange layer.

Last question - What would firmness or result be with the new 36 ILD under our current 28 ILD? Just curious what this option would be if straight 36 ILD would be too firm. It may end up the exact same as just sleeping on our current one. Thanks!