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Decision Time - Brooklyn Bedding/Novos Bed/Restava 26 Aug 2014 10:46 #1

Budget ceiling of $1,000 - Queen Size - Come down to the Brooklyn Bedding Cool Plush 12" - probably simply for the "traditional mattress feel" - versus the 11" Novos Bed Harmony Medium soft memory foam - versus the 11" Restava Westin - They all claim to be in the medium-soft to plush range - they all fit in the budget - they all claim to be made in the USA & they all seem to have decent warranties. Looking to discern whether the "convoluted foam base" in the Novos Bed - "Novosflow" is really a marketing tool - or do BB and Restava have similar type base support foam?
Any thoughts - ??? Thank you for any thoughts -
Also noticed that it doesn't appear as if Novos is a member of your group - ??

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Decision Time - Brooklyn Bedding/Novos Bed/Restava 26 Aug 2014 13:50 #2

Hi Big guy,

For the moment ... I would be very cautious with Restava (see the sticky post here and the topic it links to) until they can confirm the changes they have made in their mattresses.

Other than that, neither or your remaining two finalists has any weak links in their design in terms of the quality of their materials. I would make sure of course that you have had a more detailed conversation on the phone with each of them so they can help "talk you through" how each of them may "feel" to you (I wouldn't only go by manufacturers firmness ratings which aren't standardized and may not be directly comparable to each other). I would consider this to be one of the most important parts of any online mattress purchase (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

Looking to discern whether the "convoluted foam base" in the Novos Bed - "Novosflow" is really a marketing tool.


Convoluted base foam can have "some effect" on ventilation and sleeping temperature but the effect would be greater if there was also a pathway for the air to go through the memory foam layers into the convoluted channels below it (see post #2 here about cooling down memory foam). How much effect it has would depend on how much airflow there is through the top memory foam layers and on the combined effect of all the other variables that can affect sleeping temperature as well (see post #2 here ).

do BB and Restava have similar type base support foam?


Brooklyn Bedding uses 2.17 lb polyfoam which is a high quality material. At this point ... the density of the Restava base foam is unknown until they provide more information about the changes they have made in their mattresses.

Also noticed that it doesn't appear as if Novos is a member of your group - ??


Yes you're correct ... they are not a member of the site (see post #4 here )


Post #13 here has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase but once you are down to finalists that are all choices between "good and good" and if there are no clear "winners" between them then a final choice (see post #2 here ) that is "best for you" would depend on the results of your conversation with each of them and "best judgement" based on all the other parts of your personal value equation (including price and any return or exchange options) that are most important to you. When you have reached this point it's quite likely that either one would be a good choice.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Decision Time - Brooklyn Bedding/Novos Bed/Restava 26 Aug 2014 17:34 #3

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Hi Big guy!

Looking to discern whether the "convoluted foam base" in the Novos Bed - "Novosflow" is really a marketing tool.


We believe that convoluted foam is a method used by manufacturers looking to cut costs. Think about it, by convoluting foam you double your foam production, by removing half the foam of the original piece while keeping the same thickness. This process allows you to make 2 mattresses for the price of 1. For this reason convoluted foam looks very attractive to manufacturers looking to cut costs.

Here is a video that explains this more in detail

Next, how is the air circulating inside the mattress, supposed to cool you on top of the mattress?
Since the foam crates created by the convoluting process collapse when you lay on the mattress, how does the air move through it?
How does it reach you on top, and cool you down?
Unless there is a pathway for the air to go through the memory foam layers into the convoluted channels below, we have doubt on the efficiency of this system.

From post 6

Other manufacturers are using various combinations of holes punched in their memory foam or different types of airflow channels in the memory foam or the polyfoam underneath it to encourage airflow. These are often less effective than more open celled foam ... although this can depend on whether these airflow channels actually stay "open" and allow airflow from the body surface to the outside environment during actual use.


Hope this helps you understand convoluted foam a bit more..

Good luck in your final decision!

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Decision Time - Brooklyn Bedding/Novos Bed/Restava 26 Aug 2014 18:21 #4

Hi MFC Memory Foam Comfort,

The video you linked is very misleading and one sided and certainly doesn't paint a complete picture about the pros and cons of a convoluted material. It talks about convoluted foam in comfort layers for example but doesn't talk about convoluting foam in support layers where the thickness of the foam isn't "doubled", it deals with all the negatives of convoluting without addressing any of the positives and the tradeoffs involved, and it doesn't talk about the quality of the materials that are convoluted and implies that it's all "cheap junk" which is certainly not true.

Convoluting can be used to create a certain "feel" in a material that isn't possible with solid layers because of differences in how the foam compresses (see post #2 here ), it can be used in some types of designs to increase airflow (subject to some of the other limitations that I mentioned in my last post and the post you linked such as whether the channels stay open and or the breathability of the materials above it), and if the foam that is convoluted is higher density, it can still be a very durable material ... particularly if the convoluted material is firmer or there are foam layers above it.

It's also true that convoluting can be used to make two pieces of foam out of one which can lessen costs but it doesn't double the height as is suggested in the video because it would depend on the height of the peaks and valleys in the foam. For example if you have a 3" piece of foam and your convolutions have a peak to valley height of 1" then you would end up with two 2" pieces of foam for a total height of 4" if you add them together. If the peak to valley height was 2" then you would end up with two 2.5" pieces of foam for a total combined height of 5". You can't convolute a material to the full thickness of the material because there would be no solid substrate on the bottom to hold the convoluting together. In a base layer the relative increase in height due to convoluting (if you were using both pieces on top of each other) would be even less because the convoluting would be a much smaller percentage of the thickness of the material.

It's somewhat frustrating to me when videos such as this that have "some" valid points and "sound informed" and are "easy to believe" only present one part of a bigger picture, make assumptions that the only reason to convolute a foam is to save money or "cheapen" a mattress, overgeneralize the topic they are dealing with, and then neglect to say anything at all about the other reasons that a manufacturer may legitimately decide to use convoluted foam in a mattress design or talk about the fact that you can convolute high quality materials that would still be durable or low quality materials that wouldn't.

Next, how is the air circulating inside the mattress, supposed to cool you on top of the mattress?
Since the foam crates created by the convoluting process collapse when you lay on the mattress, how does the air move through it?


Whether the convolutes "collapse" depends entirely on the firmness of the convoluted material, the height and pattern of the convoluting, the weight of the person on the mattress, and on the layers above the convoluting. In addition to this ... all foam has some airflow with or without holes punched in the foam so there would be "some" effect on the ability for the mattress to ventilate heat into the outside environment through any channels in the convoluted material that remained open although I do agree with you that the air circulation and airflow and the corresponding effect on temperature regulation would be increased dramatically if there are holes in the foam layers above the convoluted core.

So overall ... almost everything in mattress design has pros and cons and a I believe that a complete picture that discusses the benefits of both sides of every tradeoff is always a more effective approach.

Phoenix
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Decision Time - Brooklyn Bedding/Novos Bed/Restava 26 Aug 2014 19:07 #5

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Hi Phoenix,

It's also true that convoluting can be used to make two pieces of foam out of one which can lessen costs


So we agree that this reduces cost and saves money for the manufacturer

Convoluting can be used to create a certain "feel" in a material that isn't possible with solid layers because of differences in how the foam compresses


I agree with you here, however in this case the company refers to the use of convoluted foam as an airflow system to cool you down.

It's somewhat frustrating to me when videos such as this that have "some" valid points and "sound informed" and are "easy to believe" only present one part of a bigger picture


I agree this video is a bit over the top, but I included it so that customers can gain a bit of insight on how the convoluted foam is made.

Whether the convolutes "collapse" depends entirely on the firmness of the convoluted material, the height and pattern of the convoluting, the weight of the person on the mattress, and on the layers above the convoluting


Convoluted foam is weaker in nature as part of the foam has been removed to create the egg crate shapes. Therefor it will collapse sooner that standard foam of the same density and compression rating. As an example if you have a 2 lbs foam, it looses a portion of its weight when it is convoluted and becomes weaker because of the process. The foam is no longer supporting the weight on its entire surface, but only on the peaks. Therefor it will collapse faster that a standard piece of foam of the same density and compression rating, because a large portion of the foam has been removed in the convoluting process.

Thanks for the information

cheers! :)

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Decision Time - Brooklyn Bedding/Novos Bed/Restava 26 Aug 2014 19:25 #6

Hi MFC Memory Foam Comfort,

Convoluted foam is weaker in nature as part of the foam has been removed to create the egg crate shapes. Therefor it will collapse sooner that standard foam of the same density and compression rating. As an example if you have a 2 lbs foam, it looses a portion of its weight when it is convoluted and becomes weaker because of the process. The foam is no longer supporting the weight on its entire surface, but only on the peaks. Therefor it will collapse faster that a standard piece of foam of the same density and compression rating, because a large portion of the foam has been removed in the convoluting process.


Yes I realize this ... but how much it will collapse still depends on the shape and height of the convoluting, the firmness of the material, and on the type and thickness of the layers above it. If you start off with a high quality and firm material then convoluted support layers aren't likely to be a weak link in the mattress although it is still open to question "how much" it will affect temperature. The amount of the effect would be somewhere between "no effect" and "major effect" and probably in the lower end of the range in the case of thicker memory foam layers above it ... but it would still have "some effect". the bigger issue is that the main theme of the video you linked which was that convoluted layers are basically "low quality junk" that is only used to cheapen a mattress certainly wouldn't apply with this specific example or mattress design.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Decision Time - Brooklyn Bedding/Novos Bed/Restava 27 Aug 2014 02:01 #7

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Hi Phoenix,

Until their is actual research proving that adding convoluted foam in the middle of a mattress, without a pathway for the air to go through the memory foam layers into the convoluted channels below, we will remain skeptical of this approach of cooling a mattress.

post 2

Convoluting can also result in a less durable material compared to the same type of material in a solid layer. With higher quality foams such as latex this wouldn't be an issue but with lower quality/density foams it certainly could be.


We agree with you that convoluted foam can have certain advantages in some applications, however because of durability issues we dot use nor recommend convoluted foam in a quality mattress construction. We prefer to adjust the density and compression of each individual layer of the mattress to obtain the firmness and feel we want to achieve !

Thanks for the information on this interesting foam........... ;)

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