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Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 16 Oct 2014 13:25 #1

I have been researching mattresses for 9 days at least. I am disabled and not working so I have the time(I guess.) I am having real trouble justifying spending 700+ on a mattress. I have numbness in my back and serious knots for years now. My shoulder hurts so bad sometimes the pain radiates down my arm. I have never bought my own mattress and understand all the guidelines set in this site's tutorials. Since I was a kid I have sworn by the fact that mattresses don't matter much to me as long as they are on a hard flat foundation. I was going to a chiropractor at 12 until my crappy cot bed broke and left me with a mattress on the floor. No more Chiropractor after that. I like firm, or at least firm base. I cannot stand the trampoline affect on my lumbar area. I have slept on several girlfriends innersprings with the exception of a cotton futon for a couple years, which was fine on my back but tough on my hip muscles. I even slept on the floor on a foam 1" magnet therapy pad often when visiting my brother. I am older now. My ex's bed was an innerspring(don't know what kind) on a box spring. It did not do me any favors. For three months since I moved out I have been on an air mattress, but it won't stop springing leaks that I cannot find to fix. So it's the hard tile basement floor with a camping air pad that has a slow leak, and several blankets, and since yesterday 2 cheap foam toppers I got because I could not take it anymore.

Sorry for all the background. Here is my thing. I was all set to buy a $700 Bed in a Box Pacbed until this forum confirmed my hesitations about 3lb memory foam and how hard their site tries to sell you on it being "new" and "better" I even emailed them to ask exactly what changed in the technology to make this possible. I got the generic stuff, plus the "it's proprietary" line. Square one.

My first instinct was to get a cheap on Amazon Prime because I am really not too picky and the big reason being as I am disabled and on a fixed income, I will probably be renting from this or that guy in his/her house for a while. I live in Chicago. I don't like Chicago. Point is, I am liable to pick-up and move back to the West Coast at any time(after winter/6 months+). I have no possessions to speak of(including a bed) and don't want to invest in too much until I have some permanence. It seems that Sleep Innovations has less stories about <1year breakdown so I am seriously considering it. I have some $ in the bank but it is basically the most $ I will ever have at one time, so my budget is whatever I want it to be, or rather whatever I want to sacrifice in other areas, as I own NOTHING, as well as how much I want to save.

So durability is not a big deal to me, however, If a mattress 1. arrives lumpy and is never comfortable, or 2. becomes un-sleepable in 3 months, I waste 300+ dollars. On the other hand if it DOES hold up for a year, 1. I move and give it away. 2. Or I meet my future wife and she has a nice bed, perfect. The other thing is if I do buy the no risk online (Casper etc...) and keep it, I don't know what size my next "room for rent" is going to be, and queen could be too big, or my theoretical wife can't fit on a full size with me, or she hates my $800 Casper in any size, I invested for no reason, and still can't justify buying those nice speakers.

So what do you think? Is Sleep Innovations worth the risk of breakdown or defect in the very short term? They are still not all that cheap, as in, if I spend over $300 for ANYTHING it is a big deal. Or do I get the Caspper, Novosbed, T'n'N, or whatever no risk online dealer and if it is not everything I dreamed, go for the cheap, or last option, go to Costco and get a cheapy/semi-cheapy with low risk returns. I am not a Costco member, but I have friends who are(don't know how that works with returns/warranties.) I could also become a member, as I have been considering it anyway.

Any advice? from anyone? I know I am neurotic, and I can't predict the future. My roommate flipped out when I told him I was considering buying an $800 mattress. It kind of set reality in.

Does anyone know anything about Living Social.com and Naturesleep? They are obviously overpriced normally and have NO return policy, but Livingsocial has a couple of their beds for like 390 from 1400 and 560 from 2400, I would only consider the more expensive Diamond Gel one, because the 8" describes a "moderate density core" In any case no other specs on either. Are these beds worth $560 even?
Naturesleep Diamond Gel
Naturesleep 8" "Moderate Density Base

Anyone who has read this post, you deserve a medal. I know these are personal decisions, any feedback would be great. NEED A BED NOW!

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Last edit: by plasticpitchfork. Reason: Links

Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 16 Oct 2014 13:52 #2

Hi plasticpitchfork,

Any advice? from anyone? I know I am neurotic, and I can't predict the future. My roommate flipped out when I told him I was considering buying an $800 mattress. It kind of set reality in.


There is more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here that can help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses. The most important part of your purchase will be PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) and how well you sleep on the mattress.

When you can't test a mattress in person then the options you have after a purchase to return or exchange the mattress if your experience indicates that it's not as good a match for you in terms of PPP as you hoped for would generally become a more important part of your personal value equation because the only way to know for certain whether a mattress is suitable for you is your own personal testing or experience.

The next most important part of a purchase is the quality of the materials inside the mattress so to make meaningful comparisons you need to know the specifics of any mattress you are considering (see this article ) so that you can identify any weak links in a mattress and make more meaningful meaningful comparisons between mattresses. Lower quality and less durable materials are generally less costly than higher quality and more durable materials so I would tend to avoid paying higher prices for mattresses that use lower quality materials than a competitor in a similar price range (and as you can see in the guidelines here I would also avoid any mattress where you aren't able to find out the information you need about the type and quality of the materials inside it to make an informed purchase).

The type of materials or the type of mattresses that you are considering is a matter of personal preference so only you can decide this.

If you are in the Chicago area then the better options or possibilities I'm aware of are listed in posts #2 and #4 here and if I was in your shoes I would also pay a visit to Quality Sleep / My Green Mattress who are one of the members of this site and compete well with the best in the industry in terms of quality, service, value, and transparency. This would give you a chance to test mattresses in person to see which type of mattresses you tend to prefer.

Does anyone know anything about Living Social.com and Naturesleep?


I'm assuming that you are talking about Naturesleep.ca rather than Naturesleep.com (which is a completely different company) and I would read this topic before making a purchase from them.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 22 Oct 2014 06:08 #3

Phoenix,

Thank You for replying to my post. I was expecting an email notifying me of replies, but maybe I missed it, or I misunderstood. It doesn't matter.

I laid out too much at one time in my last post and wasn't clear about how incredibly much I know about mattresses and the mattress industry at this point. I probably have 200 hours into this, at least. I know about the components and what makes a decent mattress, etc... In good part thanks to this site, which I had already read most of the "required" reading.

I sleep all day and am up all night. I have some mobility issues so looking local isn't really a good option for me. Beside that, I don't consider sitting, laying on a mattress very important or much of an indicator of anything. I also don't like the selection at Quality Sleep Shop, not in my price range at least. Verlo seems like a good option, I just don't want to sit with a salesperson and have to get a quote if they don't have a 100% return policy.

Thing for me is; I am really not all that picky about "feel" I don't sleep hot, don't care about sex bounciness, Most important is support, esp./ lumbar. I do have a hard time spending money, though. The more $ I spend, the more likely I am to be critical. I don't care how long the mattress lasts past a year if it is less than 300. I say firm, but what i mean is no sag(for a year in cheap ones)

I am deep in "Paralysis Analysis" at this point. This is not unusual for me. I once returned 3 Playstations(the same product!) before I decided I would keep it, and 5 years later I realized that Xbox was far better for gaming. Buyers' remorse is something I am no stranger to. Sticker shock is also a problem.

I went into this thinking I was going to buy a $150 futon. Then I remembered that I haven't had a good night's sleep in YEARS, and then I saw all of the options, and the prices. I am also sick and spend an average of 11 hours(half my life) in bed.

Specific questions/ thoughts:
Of my previous considerations, Costco only had one ridiculously thick 13-14in 3lb mem foam bed, and only a square piece of it to test. They are Sleep Innovations mattresses that can be returned I guess--If I can get someone to bring me there. I don't feel like SI beds are cheap enough to be toss-away, and not reliable or trustworthy enough to be full time beds(3+ years). So, maybe, but I don't like the value equation on that, unless there website has a really cheap one.

Nature's Sleep was the real Nature's Sleep, not the shady George guy, whom I would never buy anything from. I couldn't resist reading the whole thread with him :ohmy: . His website(s) are awful. Spelling, grammar, layout, etc..., just a mess. That would be a major red flag if I happened upon it. Normally Nature'sSleep.com I would pass on. They are obviously overpriced and NONE of their specs are listed. Livingsocial.com has a deal on their a deal(ending today) for 8" 1400 reduced to $390 and an 11" $2400 to like $835. I was asking if, while usually overpriced, this deal was worth it, or still overpriced. Of course they have NO return policy(as far as I am concerned.) Do you know any of their materials?

Casper is the only one still lingering. Their marketing really impressed me at first, then I felt like it was too slick, and how much of their budget is going in their product and how much into marketing. IDK

Christeli has some impressive specs on most of their beds, but their prices are too much for an exchange only(kind of fishy) policy for me, however they are running a sale until tonight(10/22 11:59), which makes them pretty good prices and I was wondering if you know if they run these all the time or what, since it is a red flag either way. They also have a $950 bed for $650 on "clearance." Their base foam is 2lb 24ILD. Casper's is 1.8lb 30ILD. How much stock should I put in these numbers? Base foam I mean. It seems like the base is very important because that is what you are going to bottom out on, to different extents. Less so Christeli because of heavy , thick mem foam layers. You say elsewhere that it is less important.

Dreamfoam seems like an alright company, but they are inconsistent with listing their materials/specs. I don't like this, also, while cheaper, their beds are still in the over $300 range without a good enough/free return policy. The only one I am thinking is on Amazon which they don't list on their site which is 8". It is 1.5 density base and 3lb memory, so I know it is not durable, but it is $300. Actually I don't know those are the densities, but those are the specs for their 7" on their site, so I am assuming(hate doing that.) I wonder if this would be a "safe" choice since you say they have a good reputation otherwise. It is basically a Sleep Innovations equivalent from a better(?) company. Still no returning if I have to pay return shipping.

I have to stop this post, it is already way too long, The Nature's Sleep and the Christeli are the only time-sensitive things I wanted to bounce off of anyone, my gut still tells me to get something I can return for free, tested or not. I know time sensitive deals are a red flag as well... ;)
Thanks

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Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 22 Oct 2014 12:53 #4

Hi plasticpitchfork.

Thank You for replying to my post. I was expecting an email notifying me of replies, but maybe I missed it, or I misunderstood. It doesn't matter.


If you subscribe to the topic (just click the subscribe button on top or on the bottom) then the system will send you an email with each reply.

I was asking if, while usually overpriced, this deal was worth it, or still overpriced. Of course they have NO return policy(as far as I am concerned.) Do you know any of their materials?


Whether any "deal" is "worth it" or not depends on how it compares to the other mattresses you are considering based on the most important parts of the value of a mattress purchase that I linked in the last reply. I don't know which of their mattresses you are considering or the specifics of the materials inside it but if you can find out the quality/density of the materials (see this article ) I'd be happy to make some comments about the quality of the materials inside it.

I was wondering if you know if they run these all the time or what, since it is a red flag either way.


They run the same or a very similar sale all the time but the name (or holiday) changes. Again ... the value of a mattress always depends on how it compares to your other options ... not on how it compares to a "regular price" which is often just a number that is used to make a discount look good.

How much stock should I put in these numbers?


You can use them to compare the type and quality of the materials to other mattresses and to the quality guidelines in post #4 here so you can make sure that there are no weak links in a mattress and to help you make more meaningful comparisons between mattresses.You can't use specs to know what a mattress will feel like ... for that you will need to talk with them or try it in person.

The only one I am thinking is on Amazon which they don't list on their site which is 8". It is 1.5 density base and 3lb memory, so I know it is not durable, but it is $300. Actually I don't know those are the densities, but those are the specs for their 7" on their site, so I am assuming(hate doing that.)


All of their mattresses that are listed on Amazon can be purchased from their site (which has the advantage of their return policy) ... all of them aren't specifically listed on the Dreamfoam site and I don't see a 7" memory foam mattress on Amazon or on their site. They are completely transparent about all their mattresses so if you aren't sure about the materials inside any of them then you can ask when you talk with them on the phone and they will let you know.

Since the most important part of the "value" of a mattress purchase is how well you will sleep on it ... I would make sure that you have had a more detailed conversation on the phone with each of the options you are considering so that you are confident that the mattress will be a good "match" for you in terms of PPP. If you are looking at online options then the conversations you have with the online retailer or manufacturer will be the most important part of the process because there is absolutely no "value" in buying a mattress that isn't suitable for you to sleep on no matter what it costs or what materials are inside it.

I read all of your post but I don't see any other specific questions so the best general suggestion I can make is to follow the steps in the tutorial post one at a time without missing any (such as the phone call with each online option you are considering) and then once you have eliminated all the options that don't meet your criteria or that you aren't confident that you will sleep well on (or that don't have a return policy that lowers the risk of trying them) then you can make your final choice based on "best judgement" and on all the objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 23 Oct 2014 04:42 #5

Thanks again,

I will go over the tutorial again certainly, however, when I read it the first time it all made good sense, except for the areas that I wasn't going to be able to easily realize, such as going into a mattress store, or even a factory place, although not out of the question(factory place.) I don't feel comfortable around salespeople, especially when I have no intention of buying. My issues really revolve around a lot of personal difficulties and control issues. No one can help me with that except a therapist :blink:

I am going to self edit as hard as I can here and just bounce some stuff off of you. Anything that is looking for feedback I tried to put in italics for faster reading.

Dreamfoam's lower price mattresses: You were right, I don't know where I got 7". There is an 8" and 10" on Amazon. Neither of which are listed on the site, and 11" (3lb) and 12"(4lb) Gel on the website. Amazon lists no specifics and the site gives the density of the memory foam only, not the "HD" base. I think where I was getting the 1.5lb base was here: Dreamfoam Site on their latex beds. This is why just assume DF is using 1.5lb base foam in their "HD" Polyfoam.
DF Returns are $99, which for me equates to no returns, unless it was unbearable. In any case their cheap offerings seem to edge out Sleep Innovations in terms of just dealing with a more accessible company in a similar price range. The only place to go from there is super cheap Signature Sleep Chinese chemical beds.

Editorializing:
Available, but not listed on the site, or having to call for specs; these things really detract from the shopping experience IMO and make hard to compare. Sometimes you don't want to call until you have all your information in front of you. Almost every single mattress company is inconsistent with their information on some level I realize, or if it is mostly there, their website is so badly designed and written you don't even want to try to navigate it(Quality Sleep Shop), but the jumping back and forth from Amazon to see what's offered is just another layer of annoying(and confusing/hard to keep track). Not that any of this makes them bad people or anything. I have yet to find a companies website that has all of it's specs and products listed and well laid out/easy to compare. Actually, Novosbed and Christeli both have pretty good information and well made websites. Other reasons such as price of preferred selections and/or return policy are their drawbacks, as well as lack of ILDs, which almost no one lists but latex sellers. BinaB has most info as well as stress tests etc... but they try way too hard to justify their 3lb foam. There is definitely a tendency to not list the weak links, which makes sense, it's marketing. It's no less frustrating.

Christeli: Sale seems to have ended, but I suspect another will come about soon, or I can make them honor the price. It wan't like a crazy 50% off sale, more like 20% Given their return policy it makes the difference between them as an option or not. Since the clearance items are final sale with warranty it equates to the same value equation for me.
Clearance item is:
Madeline - 4" 5lb memory foam with a nice flippable base foam layer with a 2" section of foam on each with different firmnesses(don't know specs on those layers). 2lb base foam inside that. I called for the ILD, they said 24lb. $650 from $949 "sale" price. Their 10" is $650(sale) with no flippable base, which is the closest in "regular" price(sale price)
Madeline

This is why I asked which makes the most difference in support; The Density or the ILD of base foam. I know "feel" is much harder to speculate on.
Casper: 1.8lb 30ILD (with 3" of topper 4lb MF, 14ILD Dunlop)
Christeli 2.0lb 24ILD. (with 4" of topper 5.3lb MF)
Splitting hairs? I know you say the top layer is more important than the base, can you elaborate, or link to more on that?

I have read your thoughts on Verlo. Any reason to avoid except that you prefer Quality Sleep Shop?

Beloit Bedding seems really great. They actually do have a clear website with all the info I could want and decent prices. I don't think it is feasable for me, however. Shipping would probably bed a lot, if they would at all. I think it said it was local only. It's 2 hours away. Not a deal breaker, just logistics.

Another option I was considering was Tuft n Needle 5" with a 3" topper like this:
Dreamfoam 4lb 3" Topper
That would make a 5-$550 8" 4lb MF - 2lb base bed that would probably be transportable in my Toyota. Can you see downside in this? poor edge support maybe? Sliding around? Also, what is the member promo, 6.5% and 60 days? Are you sure they are still doing that(discount)? I know they stopped doing referral discounts because it's "not who they are."

What do you think of this logic? Selling a used mattress is hard(ish). I will protect any mattress I get but if I had to try to re-sell my mattress because I couldn't fit it in my car, or new place, and I spent more than$400 for it; Casper seems like a best option due to not only their return policy, but it might be easier to sell because of all the hipster/trendy social media marketing they are doing. I have a feeling it is going to be the "cool" bed to own very soon(the first of it's kind?) And the demographic that would buy it are the types that would sleep on a used mattress, especially if they can't afford a new Casper, and/or they would like to try it out first.

Thanks again for any feedback.

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Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 23 Oct 2014 12:06 #6

Hi plasticpitchfork

A few comments about your comments :)

Not that any of this makes them bad people or anything. I have yet to find a companies website that has all of it's specs and products listed and well laid out/easy to compare. Actually, Novosbed and Christeli both have pretty good information and well made websites. Other reasons such as price of preferred selections and/or return policy are their drawbacks, as well as lack of ILDs, which almost no one lists but latex sellers. BinaB has most info as well as stress tests etc... but they try way too hard to justify their 3lb foam. There is definitely a tendency to not list the weak links, which makes sense, it's marketing. It's no less frustrating.


I would keep in mind that for most people specs are overwhelming and for those that do know a little bit about foam specs they can often tend to make choices based on specs alone or believe that they know more than they really do (for example making choices based on foam density or ILD alone when these are just two of many variables in a mattress purchase). Too much information and too little information can both result in poor choices. Mattress manufacturers are well aware of the risk of putting too much information on their sites for the vast majority of their customers just for the sake of a tiny minority of customers that may want it and that putting such technical information on their site will often be more misleading than helpful.

Posting ILD's are an example of this. While for some people that have a great deal of experience in the industry or who design mattresses it can be helpful, the ILD of a material is only one of many variables that determines how soft or firm it may feel ( see here ) and ILD numbers are not comparable between different materials or in many cases between different versions of the same material. If you post ILD numbers then a more "technically" oriented customer may believe that they can predict what a mattress will feel like based on these numbers alone and then will make a purchase that may not work out as well as they hoped no matter what an experienced manufacturer does to "warn" them that the choice they are insisting on may not be in their best interests. They will often believe that they know better than a manufacturer with years of experience. Overall ... the best approach is to have the numbers available for those who want them but not to overwhelm the majority of customers with too much technical information that may not be relevant or even meaningful for the large majority of customers (which is the majority of their business) and would do more to mislead them than help them.

Christeli:
Clearance item is:
Madeline - 4" 5lb memory foam with a nice flippable base foam layer with a 2" section of foam on each with different firmnesses(don't know specs on those layers). 2lb base foam inside that. I called for the ILD, they said 24lb. $650 from $949 "sale" price. Their 10" is $650(sale) with no flippable base, which is the closest in "regular" price(sale price)
Madeline


ILD numbers with memory foam is mostly meaningless because the ILD of memory foam will change with temperature, humidity, and the length of time it is compressed. I would also doubt that knowing the ILD of the base foam would have any relevance for you unless you know what a 24 ILD layer of a specific type, with a specific thickness, and with specific layers on top of it feels like. Don't forget that layer thickness along with other specs of the layer (such as compression modulus) along with what is over and under a layer will all affect how the layer feels inside the mattress. One polyfoam layer of a specific ILD may be firmer or softer than another layer of polyfoam with different specs that has the same ILD. You can't feel the ILD of individual layers ... only how the mattress feels "as a whole".

This is why I asked which makes the most difference in support; The Density or the ILD of base foam. I know "feel" is much harder to speculate on.
Casper: 1.8lb 30ILD (with 3" of topper 4lb MF, 14ILD Dunlop)
Christeli 2.0lb 24ILD. (with 4" of topper 5.3lb MF)
Splitting hairs? I know you say the top layer is more important than the base, can you elaborate, or link to more on that?


This is an impossible question to answer because support has too many different meanings and variables. A mattress needs to keep you in alignment which means that it needs less support under some areas of the body and more support in other areas of the body. The word "support" is another term that is mostly meaningless unless it is applied to specific situations and body types and is used in a specific context. There is more about primary support, secondary support, and their relationship to pressure relief in post #4 here and in post #2 here . These are questions that can only be answered with any certainty based on experience ... not on specs.

I have read your thoughts on Verlo. Any reason to avoid except that you prefer Quality Sleep Shop?


There would be no reason to avoid any manufacturer if you can find out the information you need to make meaningful comparisons. Verlo would be a "better than average" choice for most people compared to most mainstream choices but you would need to make "mattress to mattress" comparisons between specific mattresses to know which one was the best "value" for you. There is more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here . I think in the large majority of cases most people would consider that Quality Sleep Shop would be a better quality/value choice but value is always relative to the specific mattresses you are comparing and the criteria of the specific person that is comparing them.

Beloit Bedding seems really great. They actually do have a clear website with all the info I could want and decent prices. I don't think it is feasable for me, however. Shipping would probably bed a lot, if they would at all. I think it said it was local only. It's 2 hours away. Not a deal breaker, just logistics.


As you probably know I think highly of Beloit as well and they are also a member of this site and they would be well worth considering for those that are in reasonable driving distance. Once again though ... the "value" of any of their mattresses (or any mattress) would depend on what you were comparing them to and the criteria of the person that was doing the comparing.

Another option I was considering was Tuft n Needle 5" with a 3" topper like this:
Dreamfoam 4lb 3" Topper
That would make a 5-$550 8" 4lb MF - 2lb base bed that would probably be transportable in my Toyota. Can you see downside in this? poor edge support maybe? Sliding around? Also, what is the member promo, 6.5% and 60 days? Are you sure they are still doing that(discount)? I know they stopped doing referral discounts because it's "not who they are."


This would be a viable option if the combination was a good match for you in terms of PPP, if it compared well to the other options you are considering, and and if you were comfortable with the uncertainty of buying a topper that you haven't tested in person on the specific mattress you are using it on (see post #2 here ). Tuft and Needle still provides the TMU discount and extended trial period to the members of this forum yes.

What do you think of this logic? Selling a used mattress is hard(ish). I will protect any mattress I get but if I had to try to re-sell my mattress because I couldn't fit it in my car, or new place, and I spent more than$400 for it; Casper seems like a best option due to not only their return policy, but it might be easier to sell because of all the hipster/trendy social media marketing they are doing. I have a feeling it is going to be the "cool" bed to own very soon(the first of it's kind?) And the demographic that would buy it are the types that would sleep on a used mattress, especially if they can't afford a new Casper, and/or they would like to try it out first.


Again ... this would depend on what you are comparing it to. If this seems logical to you or "works" for you then it would be part of your "personal value equation" regardless of whether the same logic would "work" for anyone else. These are just individual choices or criteria that each person can decide based on their own circumstances or preferences and I don't think that there are any "rights or wrongs" here ... although you are putting more "value" on marketing than I would.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 24 Oct 2014 05:24 #7

Overall ... the best approach is to have the numbers available for those who want them


This is what I meant. Maybe not so much in the marketing copy or description but on a "specs" tab. much the way say a pair of speakers would have them. They really say nothing about what the speakers will ultimately sound like, but gives me one means of comparison. Say, a speaker goes down to 75hz in the bass end, that tells me that the speakers will need a sub-woofer to reproduce bass under 75hz, but it doesn't tell me how well it will handle or if I will like the sound of the low end above 75hz.

I am finding it hard to reconcile your guidelines on weak links and your suggesting I am too fixed on specs. I am really just trying to identify weak links and decide whether or not certain aspects are an acceptable trade-off. I know you say to have a conversation with the manufacturer, but more times than not, aren't they are going to tell me that they picked the "best balance of materials for each mattress" they make. That is the general idea of what I have been getting. For reference; I have emailed and talked with BedinaBox, Casper, and Christeli, which is not very many, but is anyone going to tell me "we chose 1.5lb support foam because it's cheaper"?

More specific to this process; would you consider, in your experience the 1.5lb foam in some of the cheaper(and some not so cheaper) support layers in Dreamfoam beds to be a weak link? Or a decent durability/price trade off? IDK what they are using yet, since I have not called, but if it was(1.5), under 2.5" 3lb or 3" of 4lb.? 8" thickness, maybe 6".

My weak link in my whole process is that I don't want to go try out mattresses of similar type and drill a salesman for specific info just to walk out. For support this is my specific context. My thing comes down to; I am a back sleeper with about 25% side sleeping tendencies, 155 pounds, 5' 8" weight fluctuates from 150-175. In the past I have enjoyed memory foam mattresses, not enjoyed traditional S brand innersprings and not tried, and can't afford latex(exception Casper.)
I am really not too picky in general, the only problems I have had with any mattress has been lower back stress from being on my back on sagging/unsupportive mattresses, which have seemed to stem from foam bottoming out into a weak support layer/springs. This is why I think I need a firm mattress, but what I really need is a supportive mattress. Durability concerns are a direct result of increased price.

If I absolutely won't go to a factory place or a showroom just to test comparable mattresses, are there any areas of specs that I should prioritize, based on the above description? If I were to narrow it down by return policy, are there any factors you would consider more than others for best chance of not returning it?
Example:
Casper uses 7" 1.8lb foam base under only 3" of top layers contin. pour synth dunlop and 4lb memory foam(1.5/1.5").
Mattress X costs about the same and uses 5-7" 2.0lb base under 3" of 4lb, or maybe 2.5" of Gel or something along those lines.
Mattress Y costs about t he same and uses 5-7" of 1.5lb base and 3" inches of 4lb MF (maybe 3lb MF, if cheap.)

If Casper and X are the same price, is the difference between the 1.8 and 2.0 base a factor that I should even be considering, given that 1.8lb is at the low end of your weak link guidelines?
Should only take a chance on Y if it is lower in cost?
These are theoretically mattresses I can return for free or a reasonable cost.

I think in the large majority of cases most people would consider that Quality Sleep Shop would be a better quality/value choice but value is always relative to the specific mattresses you are comparing and the criteria of the specific person that is comparing them.


My thing with Quality Sleep was that of the designs they have listed, with exception of "MiComfort - Best?" which I assume is a custom mattress, most of them were very unfamiliar compared to what most others' offer, such as "Memory foam blended latex." Most/all of them were non-encased coils, and very little memory foam offered, and only in higher priced beds. They also don't list mattress only prices. I am sure they are mattress makers that just need to hire a web designer ;) Also the time and commitment and probably cost of a custom bed is probably not in the cards. I did like the lumbar zoned coils. Zoned beds in general are very attractive to me, kind of rare though.

This would be a viable option if the combination was a good match for you in terms of PPP, if it compared well to the other options you are considering, and and if you were comfortable with the uncertainty of buying a topper that you haven't tested in person on the specific mattress you are using it on


Yeah, I just thought it would be easier to customize on the cheap, and make it easy transport. Also if I don't like the topper I am only out $150. If I don't end up buying 3 different toppers before I find one, which I don't see happening. I'm not super crazy about this one.

... although you are putting more "value" on marketing than I would.


I am actually a bit put off my their slick marketing. But it got me at first, before I started intense research. I am putting value in others' susceptibility to the marketing. Kind of like "go to the site and see how awesome it is, I will sell you mine for half price only because I can't take it with me."

Thanks for this site and your help. I probably will keep any future posts in short specific questions or ideas. And probably then after I buy a mattress if I have any issues questions in regards to my experience. Do you agree that it is easier to make a firm mattress softer than a soft mattress firmer?

I will probably do one of these:
(in no order)
Casper - Gut tells me to due to return policy and novel design.
Tuft w/ locally bought or Costco online 4-5lb topper that I can return and order Dreamfoam's
Go to Quality Sleep this weekend
Go to Verlo this weekend
Christeli clearance (low likelyhood)
Dreamfoam's cheaper options after a call to them.
Novosbed - budget only allows 8-9/10 firmness, might need topper, so price is high but great return and HD memory foam/2lb
base.

If I am missing a great online retailer with free returns in the 7-900$ range for Memory/latex hybrid please let me know!

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Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 24 Oct 2014 13:02 #8

Hi plasticpitchfork,

I am finding it hard to reconcile your guidelines on weak links and your suggesting I am too fixed on specs. I am really just trying to identify weak links and decide whether or not certain aspects are an acceptable trade-off.


There is more about the most important parts of a mattress purchase in post #13 here . PPP is always the first priority and quality specs won't tell you anything about whether a mattress is a good match for you and there is little value in purchasing a mattress with great specs if it's not a good match for you in terms of PPP.

The tutorial post also includes this comment ...

There is a great deal of information in this post and the posts and information it links to and I would encourage you to read it like you would a good book rather than "study" it like you would a textbook. Too much technical information that you "study" in too much detail can quickly lead to "information overwhelm" and "paralysis by analysis" and too little information can lead to a blind purchase and buying a mattress that is either low quality for your budget range or poor value. Both can lead to poor choices.

I would start with reading the complete tutorial itself to get a general sense of the steps involved and then going back and reading the linked pages that it also includes. The goal is not to turn you into an "expert" but to provide you with enough basic information that you can recognize when you are dealing with an expert who already knows what you would otherwise need to learn and can provide you with the information you need to make an informed decision and has your long term best interests at heart. There is little point in learning what they have taken years to learn and already know and are happy to share with you.


Mattresses are not like speakers where specs about the low end response can be "translated" into a meaningful indication of how it may sound for someone that has a trained ear and is knowledgeable about what all the specs of a good speaker can mean in "real life". I also wouldn't buy a speaker based on the low end response alone because many other specs such as the crossover points and the balance of the sound across the entire frequency range (and many other speaker specs) will also have a significant effect on how the speaker sounds and a speaker with a great low end response may also sound poorly. In effect you are trying to simplify something and find a "formula" that is much more complex than you may realize and IMO you are overemphasizing specs at the expense of what you will feel on a mattress and how well you may sleep on it (which you can't tell from specs). At the end of the day what you can hear from a speaker will be more important than the specs as well and you can't "feel" the quality specs of a mattress because they are an indication of durability ... not PPP.

There are also too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved to use specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance to choose a mattress that is the best "match" for you (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

More specific to this process; would you consider, in your experience the 1.5lb foam in some of the cheaper(and some not so cheaper) support layers in Dreamfoam beds to be a weak link? Or a decent durability/price trade off? IDK what they are using yet, since I have not called, but if it was(1.5), under 2.5" 3lb or 3" of 4lb.? 8" thickness, maybe 6".


You can see the quality guidelines I would suggest in post #4 here and there is much more detail yet about all the variables that can affect durability and the useful life of a mattress in post #4 here . The "best" place to use lower quality and cost materials that will have the least effect on durability are in the deeper layers of a mattress that are less subject to the mechanical stresses of compression and will have the least effect on the durability of the mattress. If you are in a higher weight range then a 1.5 lb support layer would have more effect on durability than it would if you have a lighter body type and don't compress the support layer as much so whether a 1.5 lb support layer would be a weak link would depend on the type and thickness of the materials above it and on the body type and sleeping style of the person on the mattress. If you are in a lower budget range that doesn't allow for the use of the highest quality of materials from top to bottom then the deeper layers are the best place to compromise for the sake of cost and for most people, 1.5 lb polyfoam would be fine. The upper layers are the place where I would avoid compromising the quality of the materials because they will be the weakest link of the mattress.

I would suggest making your first priority PPP, your second priority making sure there are no obvious weak links in the mattress, and your final priority making good comparisons between your finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you ... in that order.

My thing with Quality Sleep was that of the designs they have listed, with exception of "MiComfort - Best?" which I assume is a custom mattress, most of them were very unfamiliar compared to what most others' offer, such as "Memory foam blended latex." Most/all of them were non-encased coils, and very little memory foam offered, and only in higher priced beds. They also don't list mattress only prices. I am sure they are mattress makers that just need to hire a web designer ;) Also the time and commitment and probably cost of a custom bed is probably not in the cards. I did like the lumbar zoned coils. Zoned beds in general are very attractive to me, kind of rare though.


Most of their mattresses aren't "custom" mattresses and can be tested "as is" on their showroom floor just like any other store. Their mattresses would also be better value for most people than most other similar mattresses. None of their mattresses (custom or otherwise) have any weak links relative to their budget range.

If I am missing a great online retailer with free returns in the 7-900$ range for Memory/latex hybrid please let me know!


The tutorial post includes several links to some of the better online choices I'm aware of and posts #3 and #4 here and post #4 here also include links to some of the better lower budget online options I'm aware of as well.

Phoenix
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Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 25 Oct 2014 00:05 #9

Thanks again,

Gonna skip the quotes for times sake, I think you have pent enough time repeating yourself into my thick skull :pinch:

About the speaker thing I was using the analogy to say the same thing you said about it. I agree with all of that. For example: all(most) headphones from the cheapest junk to list a freq range of 20hz-20khz but the range of quality and accuracy runs the gamit, making that spec all but worthless. I used speakers because there is some use in a low freq spec as far as what you are going to get out of the speaker, all other things being equal, as of course they never are, and there are plethora of other things that influence the sound, subjective and objective. I was more or less trying to say that I understand that, but still would want the spec available to me without calling the manufacturer. Also I was wondering how that analogy compared to mattress buying, if at all.

The thing is, speaker buying without listening to them is actually not nearly as stressful for me. For the most part I am approaching it the same though, If most sets are $800-$1000 and Cnet reviews a set and says "yeah these are the most accurate, best sounding set we have heard for $250, they're not going to sound like these 3,0000 speakers, but they definitely compete with the $800 ones and in some ways beat them" I say, "considering I am listening to a set of computer speakers, I'm probably going to be pretty happy." exception being studio monitors, but I still probably would be happy with the "best for the budget" find, although with much more deliberation.

For whatever reason mattress buying has become a beast, and I can't take the same approach, even considering I really am not all that picky. I can't seem to find that $250 gem. I certainly believe that the $800 factory direct bed is as good or better than all the major brands $1,800 mattresses, but it seems to fall off fairly fast from there.

Really long story short, it's try some mattresses and buy one from a local factory, or buy one online with a solid return policy. That's about the size of it.

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Casper v Cheap Sleep Innovations v Costo v Naturesleep for someone who might move(across country.) 25 Oct 2014 00:37 #10

Hi plasticpitchfork,

Also I was wondering how that analogy compared to mattress buying, if at all.


It would be somewhat comparable in that there are many variables that influence the quality of the sound from a speaker and that only using a few (or the most common) rather than the combined effect of all of them can often be as misleading as helpful which is the same with mattress specs. Where the comparison breaks down is that the accuracy of sound reproduction can be measured and quantified more easily while the factors that affect the feel and performance of a mattress or how suitable a mattress is in terms of PPP are much more subjective and/or relative to each person and their preferences and there is no objective "standard" that can use specs to predict "comfort" or the suitability of a mattress relative to any specific person with any degree of reliability.

Really long story short, it's try some mattresses and buy one from a local factory, or buy one online with a solid return policy. That's about the size of it.


The way I would describe it is to start local and ...

1. Test carefully for PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) to find out which types of mattresses you tend to prefer and to make sure that a mattress is suitable for your body type, sleeping positions, and preferences.

2. Check for the quality of the materials and durability (you can't feel this part so this is where you need specs).

3. Compare your finalists for value based on the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

If you are also considering buying online or there are no good local options available to you then you can use your local testing to decide on the types of materials and the types of mattresses that you tend to prefer so you can narrow down your online options but since there are hundreds of variations with each type of mattress if what you are buying online isn't a close approximation of a local mattress or if you aren't confident that it will be a good match for you in terms of PPP then the options you have after a purchase to fine tune the mattress or to exchange or return it will reduce the risk of having to buy it and sleep on it before you will know whether it's a suitable choice for you.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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