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Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 05 Jan 2015 19:09 #1

First time post, although I've been reading the forum for a bit -
My wife and I took delivery of a Charles P Rogers Powercore Estate 7000 queen mattress back on October 27th. I know the date, because October 26th was the last time I managed to sleep through the night.

As a bit of an intro, my wife and I had previously been sleeping on a Soma Watertube bed that we'd had for many, many years. The indentations that reflected where we both laid at night were probably about 1-1/2" deep. That said, despite the fact that I've had back surgeries and have inflammation issues, I never woke up feeling sore - at least not from the mattress. My wife, on the other hand, was starting to wake up with back pain, so we began our mattress search.

Before purchasing the CP Rogers, we had also looked at the Berkeley Ergonomics "Astor" (equivalent to the BE Sonata) at Urban Natural, in East Hanover, NJ. I'l second what others have written about Ali, at Urban Natural - he's knowledgeable, patient and entirely non-pushy. We liked the Berkeley Mattress, but also tried out the Charles P Rogers mattresses the same day - particularly the Estate 7000 and 9000 units. While we liked both, the Powercore 7000 provided a feeling of weightless "bouyancy", while the 9000 felt somewhat more "cradling", due to the additional 1" top layer of gel-infused latex - sort of the difference of feeling like you're being suspended on top of the mattress instead of sinking into it. Based on that fact that we like both, but that the CP Rogers was about $1K less than the Berkeley Ergonomic mattress with the slat system, and we didn't FEEL $1K of difference between the two, so we went the route of the Charles P Rogers mattress.

While I have no doubt that it's a well-made mattress, my sleep issues with the Estate 7000 began immediately. I'm a back and side sleeper, and I'd wake up after just a few hours with extreme pain in my upper back and torso, right under the rib cage - to the point that when I tried to move, my muscles would spasm. I suspect that my butt, which sank into into the Soma bed, was being held much higher, relative to my upper body, by the firmer CP Rogers mattress, and over-arching my back. For quite some time, I also felt that I might be experiencing some acid reflux, and confusing the two issues. I tried sleeping on a wedge, which helped, but that could also be because of the fact that it countered the overarching effect. I also found myself being very conscious that my shoulder wasn't sinking in as much as it previously had, and I started rolling my shoulder forward to address this. After nearly 3 months, it's gotten only slightly less uncomfortable to me. I've never been a great sleeper, but the lack of getting a decent night's sleep is really starting to wear on me after this prolonged period.

As I'm nearing the 90 exchange or refund time limit for the Rogers mattress, I went back to their showroom in Rutherford, and tried the Estate 9000 as well as their Powercore Plus Cool Ultra, which seemed to be more forgiving and let me sink in a bit more. I also went back to Urban Natural and tried both the Astor/Sonata (6 firmness), as well as the Madison in a firmness of 8, plus a topper, which ran similar in price - both with the slat system.

I have a few days to either exchange the Estate 7000 for a Powercore Plus Cool Ultra, which, while a sllght price downgrade on paper, would cost us about $250 for removal of the Estate 7000 (as you don't get the difference in price back if you select a less expensive option). For what it's worth, Erik at Charles P Rogers has also been helpful and patient, so there's no issue with service from either source. The alternative is to simply get a full refund on the CP Rogers mattress, OR bite the bullet and pay the additional $1K for the Berkeley option. They're two different type mattresses, so I'm a bit torn. If I take CP Rogers exchange for the Powercore Plus Ultra Cool and have issues with the replacemenbt mattress, I can't return it (and frankly didn't ever think I'd need to return a first one). If I go the route of the Berkeley Ergonomics mattress, I like the fact that the slats give me some potential for adjustment. My wife says the decision is entirely up to me, as she claims she can pretty much sleep on anything (and apparently, she can - with the sole exception of that old Somma mattress).

I'm looking to make a decision one way or another in the next few days, and I don't fell like trying the mattresses again is going to help me make the decision. Any words of wisdom, guidance or further suggestions, based on what you know about the two companies and mattresses that might help to resolve my dilemma?

Thanks!

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Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 05 Jan 2015 21:29 #2

Hi WJK59,

I'm looking to make a decision one way or another in the next few days, and I don't fell like trying the mattresses again is going to help me make the decision. Any words of wisdom, guidance or further suggestions, based on what you know about the two companies and mattresses that might help to resolve my dilemma?


Unfortunately I can't provide any specific guidance about which mattress to choose because I don't have any personal experience on any of the mattresses you are considering and even if I had ... each person's specific needs and preferences can be very different and only you can feel what you feel on a mattress. A mattress that is "perfect" for one person can be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on even if they have a similar body type and there are just too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved for anyone to be able to predict with any certainty which mattress will be the best "match" for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

Having said that ... I can make some general suggestions that can improve your chance of making the best possible choice.

Since it seems (based on your comments) that your current mattress is too firm for you ... there are some some suggestions in post #2 here that may be helpful if the cause of the issues you are having isn't the mattress itself (such as the type of mattress protector or any mattress pad you are using or the pillow you are using).


If these aren't helpful then the next suggestion is to make sure that you are using the testing guidelines in the tutorial to test a mattress for PPP. This includes testing carefully and specifically for Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences and the "feel" of a mattress ... all of which are different from each other. I would make sure that you are fully prepared for mattress testing with light and loosely fitting clothing, with a suitable pillow (either your own or from the store) and with any sleeping partner testing the mattress with you. You will also need to make sure that you spend enough time on a mattress (at least 15 minutes) fully relaxed so that your testing can be as reliable as possible and come reasonably close to predicting your actual sleeping experience. For most people ... careful testing will be "close enough" to predict their actual sleeping experience and they will end up choosing a mattress that is well inside the comfort and support range that is suitable for them so only minor minor fine tuning will be necessary ... if any fine tuning is necessary at all (see post #4 here ).

If this is the type of testing that you did when you chose your mattress or if for any other reason you have little confidence in your ability to test a mattress that can predict your actual sleeping experience then the options you have after a purchase (or an exchange) if you make a choice that isn't as suitable as you hoped for would likely become one of the most important parts of your choice.

Based on this ... it seems that if you choose another Charles P Rogers mattress you will need to trust your own testing and have confidence that it will be a suitable match for you because the only options you would have afterwards to do any fine tuning would be adding additional pressure relief or "comfort" with a mattress pad or a topper if your mattress is too firm (and you would have few good options if you choose a mattress that is too soft). I would also keep in mind that Powercore Plus Cool Ultra is a memory foam hybrid while the Estate 9000 Luxury Plush is a softer latex hybrid so a big part of the choice between them (outside of cost) would be your preference between sleeping on memory foam vs sleeping on latex (see post #2 here ).

I would also make sure that you are able to find out the specifics of all the layers in any mattress you choose (see this article for the information you will need to make an informed choice) because while this may not make a difference in terms of PPP ... making sure that there aren't any weak links in your mattress and that the useful life of the mattress will reasonably reflect the price you paid is an important part of the "value" of a mattress purchase over the longer term. There is more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase (or exchange) in post #13 here

I think that covers most of the options that are available to you at Charles P Rogers but it comes down to a return and refund with no costs or risk involved and starting over again or choosing a mattress to exchange for at an additional cost and having very limited options available if your exchange turns out not to be a suitable choice.

If you do decide on the refund and to start over again again then the first thing I would consider with BE is whether the adjustable foundation makes enough of a difference to justify the additional cost. You can see some comments about this in post #2 here and the posts it links to but I would make sure that you test any of their mattresses both with and without it because their adjustable foundation is an option not a necessity and for some people it would be an improvement, for some it would be "neutral" and for others yet it may be a detrimental. If you don't need it or it doesn't make enough of a difference to justify the additional cost then it can put the BE options into a more comparable budget range.

Again, I can't provide you with any specific suggestions about which mattress would be the most suitable choice for you at BE (or any other retailer or manufacturer that would be available to you with a refund) ... and the same guidelines would apply as buying any new mattress. One of the advantages of a BE mattress is that they have good options available after a purchase to fine tune either the comfort or support of the mattress so you would have more options available to you other than just exchanging the mattress for another one but they only have a 30 day return policy with a 35% fee involved so you would need to decide on whether you are confident that the options you would have after a purchase would be "enough" to make sure that one of their mattresses was a suitable choice for you either before or after any adjustments.

There is also more about the different ways to choose a mattress (either locally or online) and how to reduce the risk of each of them in post #2 here but once again if you aren't confident in your testing then the options you have after a purchase (or an exchange) would probably become one of the most important parts of the "value" of any purchase or exchange decision.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 07 Jan 2015 16:07 #3

Thanks for your response, Phoenix -
I feel pretty comfortable in the thoroughness of the testing that I initially did, as well as during my follow-up visits to both Charles P Rogers and Urban Natural, although I doubt I spent as long as 15 minutes in any continuous span of time on any given mattress. I was fully aware when we chose the Estate 7000 that I felt "on top of the mattress" (which my wife liked) rather than "within the mattress" - I just didn't anticipate not being able to adapt to it.
I recognize that I introduced the memory foam mattress during the last visit to Charles P Rogers, which was, up to that point, a comparison solely between latex hybrid mattresses. I didn't initially include the memory foam in our tests, as my wife had indicated that she wanted a "traditional spring mattress" - no reason given, but I suspect just a reaction to our prior "non-traditional" mattress system (which, again - I was very comfortable on). At CPR, during my return visit, I went back and forth between the Cool Ultra and the 9000, and ultimately determined that I preferred the ability to sink my shoulder in a bit better on the memory foam unit - that, plus the 9000 is 15-1/2" thick WITHOUT any kind of pad or topper on it. I ALREADY don't like that on the current Estate 7000 (14-1/2" high) my feet don't rest on the ground when I sit on the mattress, and that it obscures half the headboard of the bed. I know that's got nothing to do with sleeping comfort, but it's a consideration, nonetheless. I'm not sure I even checked the overall thickness of the Berkeley Ergonomics-made mattress, but I will definitely confirm that.
I DO like the fact that the BE mattress with the slatted base provides the opportunity to do a bit more fine-tuning if needed after-the-fact - not just by adjusting the tensioners on the slats, but even by reversing the slats if pressure relief is needed. Once I've also confirmed the height, I'll have a better idea of whether a mattress topper is also a valid potential future adjustment, if need be. I do have to say I was pretty shocked at the price of their pillow top latex topper - an additional $625. In that sense, I do feel that the pricing of the Berkeley products seem to be significantly higher than the CRP products - but, as they're not identical, that's going back to the apples and oranges analogy... and at this point, I'm not sure I can put a price on a good night's sleep. If I end up leaning toward the Berkeley mattress, I may check with Ali as to whether he'd honor the 5% Mattress Underground member discount on top of their sale price.
I appreciate the feedback. Any other insights from you or others are welcome. I'll keep you posted.

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Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 07 Jan 2015 19:49 #4

Hi WJK59,

I do have to say I was pretty shocked at the price of their pillow top latex topper - an additional $625.


I would agree that this is somewhat on the costly side although it does have wool quilting which would increase the cost of a topper compared to a topper that only has a thinner fabric cover and it is significantly less than some of the wool quilted latex toppers listed here (some of which are more on the "outrageous" side).

I appreciate the feedback. Any other insights from you or others are welcome.


While any type or blend of latex is a durable material ... if you are considering any of their mattresses that use any other materials besides latex somewhere in the mix I would make sure that you can find out the information listed here to make sure there are no weak links in the mattress and to make more meaningful comparisons to other mattresses.

Other than that I think that my previous reply covered most of the pros and cons of each of the options you have available and I'm looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding ... or of course any other questions you may have.

Phoenix
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Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 11 Jan 2015 15:56 #5

So, I revisited Urban Natural in East Hanover, NJ earlier today and spent some time on the Astor (Berkeley Ergonomics "Sonata") as well as their Madison (one of BE's single coil hybrids - BE 1500, I believe, but could be mistaken). Since I'd previously ruled it out due to my wife's stated, but untested preferences, I also tried out the full Talalay Latex model (which was BE's closest comparison to Charles P Roger's Powercore Plus Cool Ultra) - Latex vs gel-infused memory foam, so not exactly apples-to-apples. I preferred the support offered by the coiled models, so it ultimately came down to the Astor vs the Madison. I liked the support of the Madison in an "8" firmness, but found I couldn't dig my should in enough - while the 6 and 7 firmness units, which have more give, didn't seem to provide the same postural support. I found the Madison "8" with a latex/wool topper was very comfortable - and somewhat comparable to the triple-coil Astor in a "5" firmness. The Astor only comes in either a 5 or 7 firmness. I felt the 7 was too stiff, but the 5 provided good support with enough forgiveness to allow me to tuck my shoulder under me while side-sleeping. While the Madison with the topper AND the adjustable slat base probably gives me the most flexibility in terms of post-purchase tweaking, I felt the Astor provided a good combination of postural support and plushness - slightly more supportive than the Madison with the topper, so that's what I've ordered. I ordered the slat base, too, so hopefully that will provide enough adjustment if needed. Ali was gracious enough to provide me with the Mattress Underground 5% discount on top of the sale price - which is still significantly more than the Charles P Rogers mattress - but as I said previously, at this point, after close to 3 months of inadequate sleep, the cost difference isn't important if the new mattress addresses my comfort issues. Will let you know how things work out after we've taken delivery and I've had a few nights to try it out.

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Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 11 Jan 2015 21:18 #6

Hi WJK59,

Thanks for the update and for letting us know what you ended up deciding.

Since I'd previously ruled it out due to my wife's stated, but untested preferences, I also tried out the full Talalay Latex model (which was BE's closest comparison to Charles P Roger's Powercore Plus Cool Ultra) - Latex vs gel-infused memory foam, so not exactly apples-to-apples.


The Powercore Plus Cool Ultra is a pocket coil/memory foam hybrid and the BE full latex mattress is an all latex mattress with a latex comfort layer and a latex support core so these would be very different designs and are in completely different mattress categories in terms of the materials and components.

I felt the Astor provided a good combination of postural support and plushness - slightly more supportive than the Madison with the topper, so that's what I've ordered. I ordered the slat base, too, so hopefully that will provide enough adjustment if needed. Ali was gracious enough to provide me with the Mattress Underground 5% discount on top of the sale price - which is still significantly more than the Charles P Rogers mattress - but as I said previously, at this point, after close to 3 months of inadequate sleep, the cost difference isn't important if the new mattress addresses my comfort issues. Will let you know how things work out after we've taken delivery and I've had a few nights to try it out.


It sounds like you did some very careful testing for PPP and ended up making a good quality/value choice.

Congratulations on your new mattress :)

I'm looking forward to your comments and feedback when you receive it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
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Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 14 Feb 2015 15:02 #7

We've been sleeping on the new Berkeley Ergonomics mattress for about a week and a half now.
The first night was rough - I barely slept due to inflammation pain and discomfort. When I got up in the morning, I was somewhat relieved to find that I'd neglected to take my nightly medication the evening before, which pretty much guarantees an uncomfortable night...so, essentially a false start.
For better or worse, I started taking some additional supplements that are supposed to aid in reducing inflammation the next night along with my nightly meds - fish oil, ginger, tumeric and the like. That said, I can't say that the mattress OR the supplements are entirely the cause - but I am sleeping FAR better than I did in the 3 prior months with the C.P. Rogers mattress. By the 2nd or 3rd night, I actually slept through the night and was awakened by my alarm (rather than waking early) for the first time since October. I'm actually looking forward to going to bed at night! I have had a very slight ache in my lower back when I get up - but hardly worth mentioning, as it doesn't wake me, and fades away after being up for a few minutes. Also, I haven't played with adjusting the foundation slats yet, so that's still an option.
The one thing that baffles me is, after having slept on the CP Rogers mattress for nearly 90 days, and then on the Berkeley Ergonomics unit, is how vastly different the two mattresses feel from one another. The Berkeley Ergonomics mattress feels VERY soft when you sit and lie down on it - almost to the point where you're surprised that it's actually supportive - and softer than I remember it seeming in the store. I do not at all remember the Berkeley and Rogers mattresses feeling so extremely different from one another the day my wife and I tried both out - although several hours separated both experiences - and they both seemed comfortable when we tried them, albeit in different ways It's unfortunate that there's nowhere to really compare mattresses from these different manufacturers side-by-side, as I assume the differences between the two would have been obvious, had we had that opportunity.

As I've said previously, I don't doubt that the CP Rogers is a high quality mattress - it just wasn't for me. The people that I dealt with in facilitating the return asked if there wasn't another Rogers mattress that we might be interested in, and were interested in knowing what we were buying instead, but there was no pressure or negativity - and they've since refunded our original purchase price, so they did live up to their guarantee and return policy.

I'm thankful that I can get a decent night's sleep again, and I can highly recommend Berkeley Ergonomics and Urban Natural, where we purchased the mattress.

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Berkeley Ergonomics - Charles P Rogers 14 Feb 2015 16:47 #8

Hi WJK59,

Thanks for the update ... and it's great to hear that your mattress is working out well for you so far :)

The one thing that baffles me is, after having slept on the CP Rogers mattress for nearly 90 days, and then on the Berkeley Ergonomics unit, is how vastly different the two mattresses feel from one another. The Berkeley Ergonomics mattress feels VERY soft when you sit and lie down on it - almost to the point where you're surprised that it's actually supportive - and softer than I remember it seeming in the store. I do not at all remember the Berkeley and Rogers mattresses feeling so extremely different from one another the day my wife and I tried both out - although several hours separated both experiences - and they both seemed comfortable when we tried them, albeit in different ways It's unfortunate that there's nowhere to really compare mattresses from these different manufacturers side-by-side, as I assume the differences between the two would have been obvious, had we had that opportunity.


I also think that if you had been able to test the mattresses side by side in "real time" that the differences between them would have been more apparent. The Astor uses a mix of microcoils and latex in the comfort layers which respond quite differently to pressure than latex by itself so even if the "overall" firmness was similar ... how they respond to pressure and movement (both vertically and horizontally) and the "feel" would be quite different.

In the end though ... "why" it works better for you doesn't matter nearly as much as that it does!

Thanks again and I'm looking forward to any additional updates you have the chance to share over time.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.
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