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24 Aug 2015 17:51 #11 by Heyali

Dear Phoenix,

I have spent the last couple of days getting what seems like an advanced degree in mattress technology and I want to be sure I have been a good student. I am most likely going to purchase a king-sized mattress from a disruptor and I have examined all of the specifications that you provided. above with my PPP in mind,

PPP: I would like a mattress that will accommodate a 300-lb and a 180lb person (and two small dogs). We are getting to the point in our lives--late, late 40s--where we wake up achy, sleep poorly due to a combination of snoring, tossing and turning, menopause (sorry, if TMI!), and lifelong chronic insomnia. We are back, side and stomach sleepers and probably like medium support, though this is something that I cannot determine with certainty, since I've never really been sure what that means. We don't like the "dead feeling" of memory foam you describe, but some hugging is nice. Oh, and I think a hybrid/coil mattress is out of the question due to the anatomy of our staircase which has a hairpin turn, though if these types of mattresses are.flexible, coils might not be a deal-breaker. Having read the detailed information you've provided, it seems that the only two remotely plausible mattress choices for us are the Brooklyn Bedding and Kiss mattresses.

Comfort layer: Since you say latex is basically superior in all ways to polyfoam, I don't know why we would even consider any of the others which lack latex in the comfort layer. Using the guidelines you've provided on your site, the Brooklyn Bedding mattress looks better because of the additional 2.5" of latex in the comfort layer which will accommodate a heavier person and be more durable in the long-term. The blended Talalay is also a plus, but I don't know whether the synthetic Dunlop layer comes with disadvantages. The 4lb density of the Kiss also gives me some pause given our weight. The ILD is not listed (in your blog or on Brooklyn's site), so I'm not sure how to evaluate that. In fact, I'm not entirely sure how to determine what ILD is best for us. You suggest a lower ILD for the comfort layer and a higher for the core, but I'm not sure what that means in terms of specifications. The Nest looked promising at first, but their site has no specifications listed nor is there any info about shipping and returns.

Core: That brings us to the core of each mattress. The Kiss has an extra inch of polyfoam, though they both appear to use the same grade and density. You state that the first 5-6" are the most important in a mattress, so the additional inch in the Kiss seems outweighed by the extra 2.5" of latex in the Brooklyn's comfort layer.

Cover: Finally, the cotton cover of the Brooklyn would seem to make the mattress more breathable than the rayon/polyester of the Kiss.

The main point: So my questions for you, Phoenix, are have I sufficiently considered all of the factors you deem important in a mattress purchase given our PPP? Does the Brooklyn seem like the best choice for us? And is there anything I have overlooked or not sufficiently explored? If you could also give me some information about what ILDs I should be looking at in a mattress with differential construction given our situation, that would be much appreciated as well.

Thanks for this great site!

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25 Aug 2015 09:43 #12 by Heyali

Hi again, Phoenix,

I just heard back from Brooklyn Bedding about the blend of their Talalay latex and this is the reply I received from Mario:
"Our talalay latex is blended with other organic materials to make up the other 60% synthetic materials for instance sand, ground seashells, etc."
To me, that sounds like there is only 40% (synthetic) latex in the top comfort layer which causes me significant concern. What are your thoughts about this?

Here are some additional specifications to add to your table above:
Soft (19ILD Talalay Layer, 30-32ILD Dunlop Layer)
Medium (28ILD Talalay Layer, 30-32ILD Dunlop Layer)
Firm (32ILD Talalay Layer, 32-34ILD Dunlop Layer)
Polyfoam core 2lb HD of about 36IFD
Does the IFD of the polyfoam core look high enough to support two large people?

Thanks again for any help.

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25 Aug 2015 14:02 - 26 Aug 2015 14:00 #13 by Phoenix

Hi Heyali,

PPP: I would like a mattress that will accommodate a 300-lb and a 180lb person (and two small dogs). We are getting to the point in our lives--late, late 40s--where we wake up achy, sleep poorly due to a combination of snoring, tossing and turning, menopause (sorry, if TMI!), and lifelong chronic insomnia. We are back, side and stomach sleepers and probably like medium support, though this is something that I cannot determine with certainty, since I've never really been sure what that means. We don't like the "dead feeling" of memory foam you describe, but some hugging is nice. Oh, and I think a hybrid/coil mattress is out of the question due to the anatomy of our staircase which has a hairpin turn, though if these types of mattresses are.flexible, coils might not be a deal-breaker. Having read the detailed information you've provided, it seems that the only two remotely plausible mattress choices for us are the Brooklyn Bedding and Kiss mattresses.


If you are in the 300 lb range then there is some information in post #3 here that would be helpful for those that are in higher weight ranges and I would agree that higher density and more durable materials would be a more important part of your choice.

Outside of durability issues ... the only way to know with any certainty whether any mattress will be a good match for you in term of PPP would be based on your own careful testing or personal experience but with a mattress that has a great trial and regurn policy then you can test the mattress in your bedroom instead of a showroom.

Pocket coil mattresses are generally flexible enough to bend around corners (and can be used on adjustable beds as well) although bending a mattress can be a bigger issue with mattresses that use linked coils.

Comfort layer: Since you say latex is basically superior in all ways to polyfoam, I don't know why we would even consider any of the others which lack latex in the comfort layer. Using the guidelines you've provided on your site, the Brooklyn Bedding mattress looks better because of the additional 2.5" of latex in the comfort layer which will accommodate a heavier person and be more durable in the long-term. The blended Talalay is also a plus, but I don't know whether the synthetic Dunlop layer comes with disadvantages. The 4lb density of the Kiss also gives me some pause given our weight. The ILD is not listed (in your blog or on Brooklyn's site), so I'm not sure how to evaluate that. In fact, I'm not entirely sure how to determine what ILD is best for us. You suggest a lower ILD for the comfort layer and a higher for the core, but I'm not sure what that means in terms of specifications. The Nest looked promising at first, but their site has no specifications listed nor is there any info about shipping and returns.


The choice between different materials is a preference and/or a budget choice and not a "better worse" choice. There are higher quality and more durable and lower quality and less durable versions of every foam material and as long as there are no weak links in a mattress relative to your body weight then any material or type of mattress that you prefer can make a good choice (see this article ). Different people can have very different preferences in the type and combinations of different materials or mattresses that they prefer and there is no better or worse or right or wrong when it comes to preferences.

There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and there is also more about some of the differences between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here .

The 4 lb high performance hybrid polyfoam in the Kiss Mattress is a very high quality and durable material that would be suitable for your weight range (unlike 4 lb memory foam where I would be more cautious) although any mattress regardless of the type of material will have a shorter lifespan for those that are in your weight range.

ILD by itself is one of several specs that can affect the firmness of a single layer in a mattress and by itself has little meaning (see post #4 here ). Unless you have a great deal of knowledge and experience with different types of mattress materials and specs and different layering combinations and how they combine together and can translate them into your own "real life" experience that can be unique to you (which would only be a very small percentage of people) ... I would tend to avoid using individual specs such as layer thicknesses or ILD numbers or other complex combinations of specifications to try and predict how a mattress will feel or perform for you and focus more on your own actual testing and/or personal experience. When you try and choose a mattress based on complex combinations of specs that you don't fully understand or can't "translate" into your own personal experience then the most common outcome is information overload and "paralysis by analysis". While knowing the general properties of different materials and components or types of mattresses can be helpful ... choosing a mattress based on "comfort specs" specs (as opposed to durability specs) would be much too complex for most people.

Nest Bedding is completely transparent about the materials in their mattresses and lists all the specs that are important on their site (see this article ).

When you can't test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart who can help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattresses and the options they have available that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept well on and liked that they are familiar with, any special considerations you may have, and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about helping you to "match" their specific mattress designs or firmness options to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else so that in combination with your own personal testing you can make the "best possible" choice with the highest chance of success.

Core: That brings us to the core of each mattress. The Kiss has an extra inch of polyfoam, though they both appear to use the same grade and density. You state that the first 5-6" are the most important in a mattress, so the additional inch in the Kiss seems outweighed by the extra 2.5" of latex in the Brooklyn's comfort layer.


The thickness of a mattress or of individual layers is really just a side effect of the design and by itself isn't particularly meaningful either (see post #2 here ) although higher weight ranges will sometimes do better with a mattress that is a little thicker than lower weight ranges but even this depends more on the specific design and combination of materials in the mattress than anything else.

The main point: So my questions for you, Phoenix, are have I sufficiently considered all of the factors you deem important in a mattress purchase given our PPP? Does the Brooklyn seem like the best choice for us? And is there anything I have overlooked or not sufficiently explored? If you could also give me some information about what ILDs I should be looking at in a mattress with differential construction given our situation, that would be much appreciated as well.


I think if anything you may be making this much more complex than it needs to be.

I don't make specific suggestions or recommendations because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or if you can't test a mattress in person then your own personal sleeping experience (see post #2 here ).

I or some of the more knowledgeable members of the site can certainly help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you may be considering, act as a fact check, answer many of the specific questions you may have along the way that don't involve what you will "feel" on a mattress, and help with "how" to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress or combination of materials is the best match for you based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you. I would be very skeptical of anyone who claims that they have some kind of crystal ball that can predict which specific mattress you will sleep best on with any certainty. It just doesn't exist.

I just heard back from Brooklyn Bedding about the blend of their Talalay latex and this is the reply I received from Mario:
"Our talalay latex is blended with other organic materials to make up the other 60% synthetic materials for instance sand, ground seashells, etc."
To me, that sounds like there is only 40% (synthetic) latex in the top comfort layer which causes me significant concern. What are your thoughts about this?



Again this may be much more complex than you need to know and certainly wouldn't help most people with their choices. Blended talalay latex made by Talalay Global (formerly Latex International) is a high quality material that is made with a combination of natural and synthetic rubber along with the compounding formula they use to foam and manufacture the latex itself into a product that you can sleep on. This includes foaming agents, curing agents, antidegradants, and other substances that are used to manufacture the latex and in the case of Talalay Global they also add some filler material as well (see post #16 here and post #4 here .). Unless you have a degree in materials sciene most of this type of information would also have little meaning as well.

Here are some additional specifications to add to your table above:
Soft (19ILD Talalay Layer, 30-32ILD Dunlop Layer)
Medium (28ILD Talalay Layer, 30-32ILD Dunlop Layer)
Firm (32ILD Talalay Layer, 32-34ILD Dunlop Layer)
Polyfoam core 2lb HD of about 36IFD
Does the IFD of the polyfoam core look high enough to support two large people?


I don't list "comfort specs" in the descriptions because they would be meaningless for most people and can end up being more misleading than helpful.

Again ... when you can't test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance will be a conversation with a knowledgeable retailer or manufacturer but the only way to know for certain will be based on your own personal experience which is why having a good exchange/return policy can be more important with an online purchase.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
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For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum
Last Edit: 26 Aug 2015 14:00 by Phoenix.

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06 Sep 2015 16:29 #14 by getoffamycloud

Just ordered a Tuft&Needle, really hoping it will work out!

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06 Sep 2015 16:37 #15 by Phoenix

Hi getoffamycloud,

Congratulations on your new mattress :)

I'm looking forward to finding out how you like it once you've received it and have had the chance to try it out for a bit.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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11 Sep 2015 13:07 #16 by Terpfan

Phoenix,

Why isn't the Nest Alexander on this list? I have spent way too much time researching (made a 10 pg document ... over the top I know) and decided down to the Brooklyn Bedding Soft or Med or the Nest Alexander.

Looking for queen mattress for a 250lb male and 140lb female. She likes on the softer side and I on the med/soft.. Both in our middle 20's and looking to spend below 1400. I contacted some latex places (SleepEZ) and got a quote but don't know if the extra $200-300 is worth it. I know you dont like to give advice on specifics but perhaps you can break down the decision between Nest Alex v. Brooklyn v. all latex. I know the first two are Simplified choice, but you indicate the Brooklyn as good for higher weight and in other posts you indicate the Alexander is as well.

Thanks,

Terpfan

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11 Sep 2015 13:34 #17 by Phoenix

Hi Terpfan,

Why isn't the Nest Alexander on this list? I have spent way too much time researching (made a 10 pg document ... over the top I know) and decided down to the Brooklyn Bedding Soft or Med or the Nest Alexander.


The Alexander isn't on the list because it's not a "simplified choice" mattress with its own website and is only one of many mattresses that Nest Bedding sells. There are many great quality/value mattresses that are well worth considering outside of the "simplified choice" mattresses that are included in some of the other online lists that are linked in the tutorial post (in the optional online step).

Looking for queen mattress for a 250lb male and 140lb female. She likes on the softer side and I on the med/soft.. Both in our middle 20's and looking to spend below 1400. I contacted some latex places (SleepEZ) and got a quote but don't know if the extra $200-300 is worth it. I know you dont like to give advice on specifics but perhaps you can break down the decision between Nest Alex v. Brooklyn v. all latex. I know the first two are Simplified choice, but you indicate the Brooklyn as good for higher weight and in other posts you indicate the Alexander is as well.


These are all very different mattresses that are in different categories (see this article )

The Nest Alexander is a memory foam mattress so it's in a completely different category from either the SleepEZ mattress or the Brooklyn Bedding BestMattressEver. There is more about some of the differences between memory foam and latex in post #2 here and there is also more about the differences between an all latex mattress and a latex/polyfoam hybrid in post #2 here but the best way to know which type of mattresses you tend to prefer will be based on your own local testing or personal sleeping experience.

There is also more about the 3 most important parts of "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase).

As you can see in the quality/durability guidelines here ... I would be cautious with the 4 lb memory foam layers in the Alexander in higher weight ranges (more than the lower 200's or so) that is more than "about an inch or so" thick because it could be a weak link in a mattress relative to your weight. A forum search on Alexander (you can just click the link) will bring up more comments and feedback about it as well

Both the BestMattressEver and the SleepEZ component latex mattress (or their KISS mattress if that's the SleepEZ mattress you are referring to) would be suitable for your weight range in terms of quality/durability although of course it's just as important that the mattress you choose is a good match for you in terms of "comfort" and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) as well.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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11 Sep 2015 13:41 #18 by Terpfan

Thank you!

I actually meant doing the latex build your own (do half and half) with SleepEZ and not the Love Bed due to its firmness.

Is the durability going to be superior on a full latex mattress (SleepEZ is quality I assume from your rec of them just like BB) vs the latex/poly (even though high qual on BB).

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11 Sep 2015 14:14 - 11 Sep 2015 14:16 #19 by Phoenix

Hi Terpfan,

I actually meant doing the latex build your own (do half and half) with SleepEZ and not the Love Bed due to its firmness.


I wasn't sure but I thought that's what you meant which is why I posted the link that compared an all latex mattress with a latex/polyfoam hybrid.

Is the durability going to be superior on a full latex mattress (SleepEZ is quality I assume from your rec of them just like BB) vs the latex/poly (even though high qual on BB).


Unfortunately there is no way to quantify how long any mattress will last for a specific person or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it because it is no longer suitable or comfortable for you (because this is the only real measure of durability or the useful life of a mattress that really matters) because there are too many unknowns and variables involved that are unique to each person but if a mattress is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and isn't close to the edge of being too soft when it is new (see post #2 here ) and meets the minimum quality/durability specs that are suggested in the guidelines here then it would be reasonable to expect a useful lifetime in the range of 7 - 10 years and with materials that are higher quality and more durable than the minimum guidelines such as latex (in the top comfort layers especially) it would likely be in the higher end of the range or even longer.

There is also much more detailed information about all the many variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to different people in post #4 here and the posts it links to.

One of the additional advantages of a component mattress is that if the comfort layers soften or break down before the deeper layers in a mattress (which is most likely) or if your needs and preferences change down the road you can replace individual layers instead of having to replace the complete mattress.

While I would expect that both mattresses would last most people for 10 years ... the odds are probably higher that there will be more "bonus time" after 10 years with an all latex mattress than with a latex/polyfoam hybrid as well.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
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Last Edit: 11 Sep 2015 14:16 by Phoenix.

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01 Nov 2015 18:45 #20 by clogsdon

Phoenix, in step 2 above, you mentioned for the #BestMattressEver that "The cotton cover is quilted with a thin (less than an inch) layer of polyfoam to provide a softer "surface" feel so the mattress finishes at about 11""

I am concerned that the polyfoam will compress and leave a permanent impression. I don't want to feel like I am sleeping in a dent. I weigh about #240 with more weight in the midsection.

Your thoughts? Thanks in advance.

CL

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