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07 Oct 2019 19:29 - 07 Oct 2019 19:30 #271 by Phoenix
Hi mannotbear.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum :) and good job narrowing down your choices! … the mattresses you selected use 8” pocket coil with added edge support you like and 3 zones for lumbar support and fall within your budget range. I’d say that you should opt for the most comfortable mattress with the highest density foams in the comfort layers (top 1/3) of the mattress. I’d want something with gel memory foam densities greater than 3.5lbs for a long-lasting mattress.

1. Any thoughts or concerns that might help me lean to one or the other?


I’d pay special attention to the mattress “feel” you are looking for… especially in the comfort layer. Memory foam can be a "love it or hate it" material and it certainly has "weaknesses" that latex doesn't have even though they are roughly equivalent in terms of cradling and their ability to relieve pressure. You can read more about the newer memory/poly foams. You can read more about the newer generation of polyfoams here that Aurora uses.

Helix uses only polyfoam and proprietary blends of memory foams in their products but depending on your firmness choice, Dusk would have a more in the mattress feel while with Luma’s you would get more on the mattress feel because of the resilience (springiness) of latex without losing the cradling effect. (This may also help with the pains and aches you mentioned because it’s inherent supportiveness and ease to reposition throughout the night) Aurora uses the new generation poly which has some of the latex properties.

Another thing I’d pay attention to is the breathability and how “hot the mattress sleeps”. Some types of memory foam are also more breathable than others and have less effect on sleeping temperature but memory foam, in general, tends to sleep warmer for some people than other types of foam materials (latex foam or polyfoam). There is more about the different properties that can be formulated into memory foam ~ post #9 here and post #8 here .

2. Is there a reason to choose a queen over a king? e.g. kings sag more often.


The price increase from Queen to King may be something to keep in mind if you have budgetary concerns .. especially as you’d need to consider the foundation and all other sleeping accessories. As far as sagging goes .. theoretically we have more space on the mattress to "wear out" but practically we'll typically tend to drift towards the same spot on the mattress (weather Queen or King) which is where the most mechanical stress will occur. If the components used in the top layers of the mattress meet  durability guidelines here  you'd expect to have minimal impressions over time.

You may want Helix about the foam thickens they use in the comfort layers of their pillowtop of their Dusk Luxe, … site states 2.5 PCF density Visco Gel (IFD: 10.) // HD Memory Foam - IFD: Varies Density: 2.5 PCF Helix blend. // Dynamic Foam - latex-foam hybrid alternative: 10-20. Density: 3.0-4.0 PCF\.

There is more about the 3 most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here helping with meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your Mattress buying personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

I hope this gives a bit more info to help with your final choice.
Phoenix

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Last edit: 07 Oct 2019 19:30 by Phoenix.

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09 Oct 2019 07:17 #272 by mannotbear
Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for your response!

After considering your input, I decided to go with the Luma Hybrid Slumber System. Here's why -

1. According to MU and most sources, latex is springier and will give us more of the "laying on" vs "laying in" the mattress.

2. Luma Sleep is a MU member and that gives them credibility.

3. I couldn't find much info on the polyfoams used by Brooklyn Bedding or Helix; that gave me pause. Even if they are great materials, one would think they would broadcast the quality if it is to be proud of.

I've heard good and bad things about Luma's process; the order is in process and I'll update with feedback either way for those who come after me.

Cheers!

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09 Oct 2019 19:44 #273 by princessonapea

Phoenix wrote: Hi princessonapea.

I am sorry to hear that the Luma Mattress not working out. IMO I'd try to understand your sleeping landscape rather than rush for yet another mattress in the hopes that the new one would match your needs. A few suggestions and experiments may shed a bit more light before you move on deciding.

You describe the "pain" being "the same" ... Unless your pain is caused by a faulty foundation it is probably is very unlikely that the pain is for the same reason as the "sagging" that you experienced with your old mattress. There's the possibility that the misalignment you are experiencing could be connected to the foundation that is under your mattress so I would make sure check this. (you could check the foundation to make sure it is even and rigid and test this by trying the mattress on the floor for a few nights to see if it makes a difference)... or .. it could be mattress could be too soft for your body's needs and preferences.

I am also not sure from your description how long you've slept on the new mattress but typically your body would need to adjust to a new sleep surface as well as lose some of its “learned alignment”. Also, a new mattress can expose some of the “weaknesses” from past injuries and the body needs more time to regain its normalcy... or again ... It could simply be an issue that the materials/comfort you’ve chosen unfortunately doesn't meet with your needs. I would certainly spend more than two weeks testing out any new mattress.

I am asking for more information as sometimes consumers can have some pain from one's body adjusting to the new mattress. Does it not feel "firm enough"? Do you notice your back/hips not feeling aligned properly (as was noticeable with cheap sagging mattress)? Any other info would be great before you make any quick decisions.

Lastly, you sleep on your back which indeed calls for a firmer mattress and I know that price is also a consideration, but Luma you currently purchased has the bolsa coil and Luma also has the combi zone coil system that would be firmer than the bolsa coil. Your approximate BMI is around 25 - 26 but where you carry your weight and your body configuration are also important which may account for the misalignment that you seem to experience. There can be so many variables in the specifics of the materials, design, and construction and I'd get in touch with Luma and discuss what they recommend as they know their mattresses, how they perform over time with different body type sleepers much better than anyone else.

Hope this helps a bit and that with a few more bits of data into the place we can get a better sense of what is going on (Focusing actually on feeling the differences in your own experience which is always more accurate than anyone else's descriptions).

Phoenix


Hello Phoenix,

It has been two months or so. I now have about 3 weeks to make a decision whether I want to return the Luma mattress.
I went back and forth several times between laying the mattress on the bed and on the floor. I believe both the bed and the mattress were a bad purchase. The bed I bought is kdframes.com/collections/beds/products/n...ariant=1704873328668 and I also bought their center leg. This bed is very sturdy, but each slat is a bit less than 2 inches, and the gap between the slats is around 2.9 inches. I think that the gaps are too big, causing the mattress (the coils maybe?) to fall inside, and provide less support. I am planning on buying some kind of a board to put on the slats. Something like that www.homedepot.com/p/Dimensions-48-in-H-x...ard-109099/202093803 .
However, even with the mattress on the floor, I experience some lower back soreness/discomfort. I am currently still trying to figure out whether it is only one side (where I laid down the most) or uniform across the whole mattress.
So where do I go from now? I need to probably return the Luma mattress in ~3 weeks or less.
Should I go for memory foam now? I am willing to increase my budget, if only I can find a suitable mattress for me.

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11 Oct 2019 12:37 #274 by Phoenix
Hi princessonapea.

Thanks for the added information and for taking the time to pinpoint the possible cause of your discomfort. Definitely 2 months is long enough to give a clear sense of mattress suitability.

Yes, having the central leg support is the best solution for any sagging due to slat flexing under the mattress weight and people sleeping on it. This queen foundation platform bed is made of Yellow/Tulip Poplar hardwood nicely built with the slat length is 27” for the left/right areas of the bed allowing only for minimal flexing. So placing the board on top of the slats may not contribute much.

This bed is very sturdy, but each slat is a bit less than 2 inches, and the gap between the slats is around 2.9 inches. I think that the gaps are too big, causing the mattress (the coils maybe?) to fall inside, and provide less support. I am planning on buying some kind of a board to put on the slats.


All Luma hybrid lines have a 1” firm HD Base foam used for stabilization which would certainly prevent any coils to “fall inside” and slip between slats. As far as what to do next about your new mattress I suggest you contact Luma directly and see what they recommend. Given a summary of your experiences and eliminating some of the possible issues with the foundation… they’d be the first to tell you if the mattress reached the end of what can offer in your particular case or.. based on your experience so far, they may come with an out of the box solution.

Should I go for memory foam now? I am willing to increase my budget, if only I can find a suitable mattress for me.


I’d pay special attention to the mattress “feel” you are looking for… especially in the comfort layer. Memory foam can be a "love it or hate it" material and it certainly has "weaknesses" that latex doesn't have even though they are roughly equivalent in terms of cradling and their ability to relieve pressure.

With memory foam you would have a more in the mattress feel while with similar ILD in latex you would get more on the mattress feel because of the resilience (springiness) of latex without losing the cradling effect. Using latex may be better for the pains and aches you mentioned because it’s inherent supportiveness and ease to reposition throughout the night. Visco elastic memory foam is a delayed response foam and feels much firmer until it becomes softer with body heat and the feel is very different.

Another thing I’d pay attention to is the breathability and how “hot the mattress sleeps” Some types of memory foam are also more breathable than others and have less effect on sleeping temperature but memory foam, in general, tends to sleep warmer for some people than other types of foam materials (latex foam or polyfoam). There is more about the different properties that can be formulated into memory foam ~ post #9 here and post #8 here .

If you’re considering looking into with some sort of memory foam product, there are some guidelines for purchasing memory foam in post #10 here . There are some other memory foam brand options inpost #12 here . There’s also a bit about …how memory foam is made here .

Let us know what direction you chose to go and any questions that you might have.

Phoenix

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12 Oct 2019 16:27 #275 by princessonapea

Phoenix wrote: Hi princessonapea.
Yes, having the central leg support is the best solution for any sagging due to slat flexing under the mattress weight and people sleeping on it. This queen foundation platform bed is made of Yellow/Tulip Poplar hardwood nicely built with the slat length is 27” for the left/right areas of the bed allowing only for minimal flexing. So placing the board on top of the slats may not contribute much.

This bed is very sturdy, but each slat is a bit less than 2 inches, and the gap between the slats is around 2.9 inches. I think that the gaps are too big, causing the mattress (the coils maybe?) to fall inside, and provide less support. I am planning on buying some kind of a board to put on the slats.


All Luma hybrid lines have a 1” firm HD Base foam used for stabilization which would certainly prevent any coils to “fall inside” and slip between slats. As far as what to do next about your new mattress I suggest you contact Luma directly and see what they recommend. Given a summary of your experiences and eliminating some of the possible issues with the foundation… they’d be the first to tell you if the mattress reached the end of what can offer in your particular case or.. based on your experience so far, they may come with an out of the box solution.

Phoenix


Hello Phoenix,

From my tests of laying the mattress on the bed and floor, I have noticed that when the mattress is on floor, I am more comfortable. Furthermore, when the mattress is on the bed, I am more comfortable if I sleep in the center of the bed. This is where there are 2 slats that run along the long side of the bed. My only explanation for that is that horizontal slats do not provide enough support due to the gaps. I am pretty sure it is not due to flexing, since the wood is very sturdy and I have 2 central legs. The only remaining cause, as far I can tell, are the gaps between the slats.
Do you think that is not possible?

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14 Oct 2019 09:29 - 14 Oct 2019 13:15 #276 by Sensei
Hi princessonapea,

“From my tests of laying the mattress on the bed and floor, I have noticed that when the mattress is on floor, I am more comfortable. Furthermore, when the mattress is on the bed, I am more comfortable if I sleep in the center of the bed. This is where there are 2 slats that run along the long side of the bed. My only explanation for that is that horizontal slats do not provide enough support due to the gaps. I am pretty sure it is not due to flexing, since the wood is very sturdy and I have 2 central legs. The only remaining cause, as far I can tell, are the gaps between the slats.
Do you think that is not possible? “


Based on the results of your “tests of laying the mattress on the bed and floor”…something does not quite add up…You eliminated the slats having any flex, and the 1" firm stabilization layer would definitely prevent the coils sinking in through the 2.9 gaps…so unless there is a defect with the foam on top I agree with Phoenix that it would be best to get Luma’s point of view on your thoughts of what might be happening and see if in fact this is…(or not) possible with their mattress. Given a summary of your experiences and eliminating some of the possible issues with the foundation… they’d be the first to tell you if the mattress reached the end of what they can offer in your particular case or… based on your experience so far, they may come with an out of the box solution.

Have you reached out to Luma? Here is their contact info:
Customer Service: 800.982.9846
Web site:  Lumasleep.com

Additionally Luma Sleep is  one of the mattress industry experts   on The Mattress Underground (their CEO Stephen S. Russo was also the President and CEO of the Talalay Global) and extremely skilled to point out any mattress issues or suitability issues. 

I’d encourage you to ask them about this on Luma’s dedicated forum here .
 
I’d be interested in what Luma thinks about this. Thanks again for your post
Sensei :)

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
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Last edit: 14 Oct 2019 13:15 by Sensei.

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07 Nov 2019 08:20 - 07 Nov 2019 08:43 #277 by rdubb21
Hi Sensei and Phoenix, I'm considering a Muse mattress and haven't seen much info on it in TMU's forums, and was wondering if I can get your opinions? I tried it in store and liked it, especially the cooling phase-change material (although I understand it will return to a more ambient temperature as it's slept on).

Here are the details:

- Phase-change fabric cover made from Polyethylene and Polyester knitted yarns
- 2" of 4lb Muse M.107 open cell memory foam
- 2" of 3lb custom comfort memory foam
- 8" of 2lb high density support foam

It seems like the 3lb contour layer might be a weak link in the long term. I really liked the mattress though and it has a 10 year warranty. Would it still be worth going for? Or are there TMU preferred members that would be able to give a similar feel at a higher value level for the price (~$1k)?

If helpful, I'm 6', 155lb side and stomach sleeper.
Last edit: 07 Nov 2019 08:43 by rdubb21.

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10 Nov 2019 13:32 #278 by Sensei
Hey rdubb21,

Thanks for your question :) . Saw recently on the TMU Forum that you had questions for Arizona Premium regarding DIY Hybrid builds- DIY Hybrid - Expert Advice Needed . Are you still considering Dunlop/ Talalay mattress options or with your interest in Muse are you moving towards a memory foam choice?

I'm considering a Muse mattress and haven't seen much info on it in TMU's forums, and was wondering if I can get your opinions? I tried it in store and liked it, especially the cooling phase-change material (although I understand it will return to a more ambient temperature as it's slept on).


There are 200+ bed-in-a-box direct to consumer mattress companies selling mostly a polyurethane-based product; this includes memory foam. I'm not personally familiar with the Muse brand, would rather not comment on their products. That said, other consumer members are welcome to share their experiences with other brands, different points of view are what makes this forum a great mattress shopping resource.

Or are there TMU preferred members that would be able to give a similar feel at a higher value level for the price (~$1k)?


This is a good opportunity for the TMU trusted members to answer your questions directly, they would each likely have a solution to offer. Hope this helps…

Thanks,

Sensei

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
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11 Nov 2019 06:37 - 11 Nov 2019 06:43 #279 by rdubb21
Hey Sensei, thank you for replying :) I decided to move away from latex to memory foam after trying it out in-store and noticing motion disturbance similar to jbedshopper and others in the All Latex bed = motion / partner disturbance thread.

I'd love to hear from the TMU trusted members.

I browsed through the list, but had a tough time finding ones that sold memory foam beds which were a good fit at the price point I was looking for. It's very possible I missed some options though, so if you, Phoenix, or anyone else (mattress makers and TMU trusted manufacturers included) could suggest mattresses I'd be very grateful.
Last edit: 11 Nov 2019 06:43 by rdubb21.

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14 Nov 2019 11:20 #280 by Hashimoto
Hi,

I live in Montreal and am currently shopping for a mattress to replace our old queen mattress. I was set on getting a Casper or similar at first, but then I discovered TMU and changed my mind.

I'm not sure where to post this, so I'm posting this here. It would be great if the admins can move it to its own thread.

I read through many of the articles and tutorials here and went through a lot of the threads before starting my shopping and I thought I would both share my experience and get some advice from the experts here. The prices will all be for queen mattresses, tax in.

We are shopping for a queen mattress, potentially a king.
I am 6'2", ~210lbs, back + side sleeper.
My wife is 5'6", ~135lbs, stomack + side sleeper.

I visited 3 manufacturers in Laval, just north of the Montreal island:
1. Matelas Dauphin
2. Matelas Excellence
3. Matelas Beau-Reve

My wife only went with me to matelas Dauphin.

Matelas Dauphin:

While matelas Dauphin is a manufacturer, the people in the store are salesmen. The guy that was helping us seemed knowledgeable overall and wasn't pushy, but that's not true for everybody. There were some details I missed, so I attempted to call some other Dauphin stores and the answer was often "Oh I have no idea! I would have to call the factory and call you back". I wasn't a fan of the fact that they couldn't answer a bunch of questions, especially when it came to memory foam density.

Apparently all their polyfoam is between 2lbs and 3lbs density.
They say their latex is all 100% natural Talalay, with 4.5-5lbs density (does density matter for latex?)

We liked 3 mattresses there:

Hevea Aurora (this is not on their website):
8.5" thick.
Top layer is wool + organic cotton.
2" Talalay latex ILD 19.
2" Aurora foam transition. I was told it's same density as the support layer, but I'm not so sure.
4" polyfoam support layer, 2.5 lbs density.
$1700

Ceiba ( matelasdauphin.com/en/product/ceiba/ )
12" thick.
Top layer is wool + organic cotton
2" Polyfoam, 2.5lbs density.
1" Talalay latex ILD 19.
2" polyfoam 2.5 lbs density.
6" pocketed coil, 14-15 gage, 660 count for queen.
Lateral support of high-density foam. I'm given a range of 2.5 to 3 lbs.
$1570

London (Bed in) ( matelasdauphin.com/en/product/london/ )
Bed in a box
10" thick.
2" Gel-infused memory foam. Nobody managed to tell me the density for the memory foam.
6" Pocketed coil, 14-15 gage, 660 count for queen.
2" Polyfoam. They didn't have the spec for density, but would tell me 2 to 3 lbs.
Lateral support of high-density foam. I'm given a range of 2.5 to 3 lbs.
Price for London in store is $1700 as opposed to the $2900 you see on the website.

All 3 felt good as far as comfort and pressure relief. I prefer the Hevea and Ceiba over the London personally. My wife prefers the London over the other 2.

Matelas Excellence:

A small manufacturer in Laval. There's no show-room. The owner puts different layers topped with a cover on a foundation, and you try it out like that. You can customize as you wish, but the owner has his own recommendations.
The owner recommends we avoid memory foam. He says it feels good at the beginning, but it doesn't last very long.
He uses Talalay Latex as well. The top layer they add seems to be either cotton, or synthetic, but he doesn't have much more info about that.

Here's what I liked.

All-Latex bed:
2" ILD 28 Talalay w/ 3.8 lbs density
6" ILD 44 Talalay w/ 5.1 lbs density
Zippered cover, so we can reverse a layer easily.
This mattress felt very nice as far as comfort and pressure relief are concerned. Dauphin only had 1 all-latex mattress w/ ILD 19 and we felt we sunk in too much.
$2070

All-foam bed:
2" polyfoam comfort layer, 3 lbs density.
4" polyfoam for support, firm, 2.7lbs density.
2" polyfoam comfort layer, 3 lbs density.
Reversible mattress.
$1120

Mattress felt very nice as far as comfort and pressure relief. It's also half the price of the latex mattress! Owner says it obviously won't last as long as the latex mattress though.

Owner doesn't recommend going hybrid w/ a foam support and latex top since the foam will last less than the latex.
What he suggests in that case is to make a 6" polyform support mattress, and then have a 2" Talalay topper on top (no cover). This way, we can potentially just replace one or the other. Price jumps up to $1265 for that option.


Matelas Beau-Reve:

A small manufacturer in Laval. They have a small show-room, but they also manufacture their mattresses right there. Owner is a very straight forward guy. They make mattresses with pocketed coils (I think, I'm unsure), polyfoam, and Talalay latex. Owner doesn't recommend memory foam either for the same reason as mentioned before. He also doesn't recommend the pocketed coils for the weight difference between my wife and I as I will end up rolling to the middle. All the mattresses they make are reversible, and they ask you to flip them every 4 months.

I tried Latex and polyfoam mattresses.

Latex Mattress:
Approximately 10-11" thick.
Reversible.
3" ILD 28/34 Talalay
2" polyfoam, 2.9lbs density.
3" ILD 28/34 Talalay.
The added coating will fill the rest. Cotton cover.
Mattress is reinforced on the side with polyfoam, I believe 2.9lbs as well, probably firm.
$1880

Foam Mattress:
Approximately 10-11" thick as well.
Reversible.
All 2.9lbs foam. Apparently it's all one 8" piece.
THe coating has a 1" layer of polyfoam I believe called "Coquille d'oeuf". That translates to "egg shell" in english, but I think the actual term to use here is "egg crate"?
Reinforced on the sides. I think it's also 2.9lbs or maybe 3.4lbs firm. I don't remember the exact detail here.
$1390

Both mattresses were available in firm and semi-firm options. The owner showed me different density pieces and showed me how 2 pieces of same density can have different firmness levels, so that was cool. He also showed me all the densities he has: 1.6, 1.9, 2.35, 2.9, 3.4, and told me how he wouldn't recommend anything below 2.35 in my case.

For latex mattress: I like both semi-firm and firm options, with a slight preference to the firm one as far as comfort and pressure relief are concerned. I like the fact that it's reversible but it sounds like a hassle doing it every 4 months, especially that it can invalidate the warranty if you don't do it.

For polyfoam: I liked both semi-firm and firm options. I have a slight preference for the semi-firm, but the owner says I have to be careful with that one due to my weight. Anything above the low 200s, and i will start to sink in too much. Even though my wife likes firm mattresses, he says the firm polyfoam option could create pressure points and inhibit circulation for her, so the polyfoam option doesn't seem to be ideal unless we go with a split king where we can have 2 different comfort layers.

Obviously, my wife will have to come and try the mattresses at these shops.

From what I see, there doesn't seem to be any durability issues with any of the mattresses. What do you guys think? Are there any glaring issues you see?

I personally prefer Beau-Reve and Excellence to Dauphin, simply because I'm dealing with the owners directly and they seem to be more straightforward and knowledgeable concerning the materials and the different densities.


My favourite mattresses are the Latex ones. I like both the ones from Beau-Reve and Excellence, but they are expensive.
The polyfoam mattress from Excellence seems like it's potentially the best value for the money at that price.


Matelas dauphin has a 100 or 120 night comfort waranty. They charge 75$ to pick up the mattress in that case. On the other hand, I'm not sure how a replacement would work in that case and what price difference I would have to pay.
The hybrid mattresses are 20 year warranty but after the first 10 it's pro-rated.
The Bed in mattress is 15 year warranty but after the first 5 it's pro-rated.

The other 2 small manufacturers provide a warranty against manufacturing defects and premature sagging of 2" or more.

Are these options a good value for the quality? (especially considering I'm in Canada)
Are there any glaring issues with any of the mattresses or manufacturers that you can see from my description?
Any questions I should ask the manufacturers? Any advice or suggestions for me?

Thank you.

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