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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 23 Jul 2015 12:50 #1

I'm 5'10", around 165 lbs
I used to use a cheap Comfort Dreams Select-A-Firmness (Soft) memory foam mattress I ordered from overstock. I used that for about 4 years. although it didn't seem like the best of quality, and It was a little too soft for me, I liked it a lot more than what i'm sleeping on now. It also ran occasionally hot, which I know is a common problem with memory foam. Also. I missed having a bounce, which made me want to switch back to springs.

Last year I moved across country (to Las Vegas area) for medical school about a year ago, and purchased a new beautyrest recharge mattress. It felt very comfortable when I first started using it, but overtime it seems too soft for me and doesn't offer enough support. I have a very minor scoliotic curve, which wasn't even ever diagnosed until I was in med school. I have occasional back pain, which I believe has become much worse from using my current mattress. I think these days I pretty much only sleep on my side, and maybe occasionally the stomach, but I remember sleeping on my back more when I had the memory foam.

I want to get a king or a queen. Right now I have a full size mattress, and when my girlfriend and my small dog are on it with me it can get a bit crowded, which is reason enough to upgrade. The beautyrest doesn't seem like a terrible mattress, so i'm just going to let my girlfriend have it for her apartment.

When I first started looking the T&N seemed like a great choice based on the price and reviews on Amazon. After doing a little more research I read an article on consumer reports saying that casper has better spine support than T&N. After that I did some more research making me consider BB BME, which seems to be an incredible value for the materials they are using. I really like the idea of the bounce that i'd get from the latex. They are also offering a free pillow right now, and free stuff is always amazing. So right now i'm torn between the T&N and BB BME. If I get the BME i'll probably go for the medium firmness, but i'll talk to them to reaffirm that choice.

Right now i'm leaning towards BB BME. If I get the T&N I would be able to afford a King if I wanted, but A queen is probably perfectly fine for my needs right now though.

Thanks in advance for the input :), this website is an amazing resource

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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 23 Jul 2015 14:04 #2

Hi JCapZano,

Last year I moved across country (to Las Vegas area) for medical school about a year ago, and purchased a new beautyrest recharge mattress. It felt very comfortable when I first started using it, but overtime it seems too soft for me and doesn't offer enough support. I have a very minor scoliotic curve, which wasn't even ever diagnosed until I was in med school. I have occasional back pain, which I believe has become much worse from using my current mattress. I think these days I pretty much only sleep on my side, and maybe occasionally the stomach, but I remember sleeping on my back more when I had the memory foam.


As you've probably read on the site ... your experience with a major brand mattress is very common because they generally use lower quality and less durable materials (particularly in the top layers of their mattresses) which are much more likely to soften or break down prematurely which can result in the premature loss of the comfort and support that was the reason you purchased the mattress in the first place. Unfortunately the premature loss of comfort and support isn't considered to be a "defect" that is covered by a mattress warranty (see post # 174 here ).

When I first started looking the T&N seemed like a great choice based on the price and reviews on Amazon. After doing a little more research I read an article on consumer reports saying that casper has better spine support than T&N. After that I did some more research making me consider BB BME, which seems to be an incredible value for the materials they are using. I really like the idea of the bounce that i'd get from the latex. They are also offering a free pillow right now, and free stuff is always amazing. So right now i'm torn between the T&N and BB BME. If I get the BME i'll probably go for the medium firmness, but i'll talk to them to reaffirm that choice.


Both Brooklyn Bedding and Tuft & Needle are members of this site which means I think highly of both of them and neither one uses any lower quality materials or has any weak links in their mattress in terms of durability so they would both be suitable for average weight ranges (although Brooklyn Bedding uses latex and a higher density base foam which are higher quality and more durable materials that would also be more suitable for higher weight ranges but are also more costly). There is more about both of them and the other "simplified choice" mattresses in post #2 of this topic .

There is more about the many variables that can affect the sleeping temperature of a mattress in post #2 here but neither one of the mattresses you are considering have any memory foam and it would be unlikely that either one of them would sleep hot for most people.

You can see my comments about the Consumer Reports mattress ratings and recommendations in post #2 here and in this topic . While they may be a good source of information about more "objective" purchases ... as you can see I would consider them to be an unreliable source of information or guidance about purchasing a mattress. My thoughts are also shared by most of the more knowledgeable people in the industry (see post #5 here for an example).

I would also be very cautious about about using other people's experiences or reviews on a mattress (either positive or negative) as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you and in many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (see post #13 here ).

I would also keep in mind that there are no "standard" definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like "medium" for someone else or even "soft" for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they "rate" a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness as well and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

When you can't test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart who can help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattresses and the options they have available that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked that they are familiar with, any special considerations you may have, and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about "matching" their specific mattress designs or firmness options to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else.

While only you can decide which one would be a "better" choice based on the criteria that are important to you (regardless of whether the same mattress would be a "better" choice for someone else) ... once you are down to finalists that are all choices between "good and good" (which you are) and none of them have any lower quality materials or "weak links" in their design relative to your body type (which they don't) and if there are no clear winners between them then you are in the fortunate position that either of them would likely be a good choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing or mattresses you have slept well on, your more detailed conversations with each of them, your confidence about PPP and the suitability of each one, their prices, your preferences, the options you have after a purchase to fine tune the mattress or exchange or return the mattress or individual layers, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on "informed best judgement" based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix
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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 23 Jul 2015 22:38 #3

Thanks for the feedback Phoenix! Especially that bit about consumer report. That made it much easier for me to throw casper out of my mix of picks. I finally decided on BME, which I ordered earlier today.

I really appreciate everything you've done on here. After my last mattress experience I was a little worried and stressed about getting a new mattress, but now I feel very reassured that I made an educated purchase, and am going to get a quality product at a great value. You've helped lots of people save money, while helping them live healthier lives, and avoid/relive pain, which is an amazing thing.

I'm really excited, and confident that i'm going to love it, but i'm really happy knowing I have those 120 days in case I don't. I'll post my thoughts when I get it :)

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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 23 Jul 2015 23:28 #4

Hi JCapZano,

Congratulations on your new mattress :)

As you know I think you're making a great choice and I'm looking forward to your comments and feedback once you receive it and have had the chance to sleep on it for a bit.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 24 Jul 2015 11:42 #5

Thanks! Early this morning I got a reply on twitter (I tweeted to get a free pillow) congratulating me on my purchase. An hour later I got emails saying my order has been completed, it's being shipped out, and provided me with a tracking number. I honestly wasn't expecting the order to be processed at all until next week. I'm very impressed with Brooklyn Bedding so far.

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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 22 Dec 2015 13:09 #6

Sorry for taking so long to reply! School keeps me super busy.
I was very impressed with the Brooklyn bedding BME. They were amazing to deal with, and I received the mattress very quickly (I think I ordered it on a Friday night and received it on Monday) When I first started using it, it seemed like the perfect mattress. I could tell it was high quality, and well built, but I wasn't getting as great of sleep on it as I would have hoped. I don't think the bounce back and give of latex is right for me. I've been mostly sleeping on my stomach & side. On the side I felt like it didn't support my body enough, and would suffer from back pain. On my stomach I seem to have pain in my gluteus area. I really wanted to like the mattress, so I waited awhile hoping breaking it in would help. Being so busy with school, I didn't actually reach out to Brooklyn bedding until early November, but they were very easy to deal with. The only hassle I experienced was with the moving company they contracted for the pickup, but that was by no means their fault.
I ended up getting the T&N, At first I was planning on a dreamfoam mattress, but I thought it made more sense to give T&N a shot first because of their return policy. The T&N is pretty much identical in firmness to the BME, but I like the feel much better, as it doesn't feel like it is pushing back as much as the latex. I definitely sleep much better than I did on the BME (objectively, because I wear my Fitbit most nights to track my sleep). I feel like if it was just a little more softer it would be perfect. I'm thinking maybe a different mattress protector or a thin topper may help. I'm using a "SafeRest Premium Hypoallergenic Waterproof Mattress Protector - Vinyl Free," which I got off amazon.
Overall I'm much more happy with the T&N, but i'm still considering trying something else as i'm only about halfway through the trial. I'm looking at the dreamfoam "ULTIMATE DREAMS SUPREME GEL." I'll be back in NY for the holidays, likely using my old memory foam mattress, so it will be interesting to see how I sleep on that compared to these newer ones.

I do have one question if anyone can answer. I know firm mattresses are recommended for people who sleep on their stomachs, and I was just curious how true this always is. I feel like I would be much more comfortable on my stomach on something softer, but I maybe perceiving things wrong.

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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 22 Dec 2015 14:43 #7

Hi JCapZano,

Thanks for taking the time to share an update ... I appreciate it.

The T&N is pretty much identical in firmness to the BME, but I like the feel much better, as it doesn't feel like it is pushing back as much as the latex.


I would keep in mind that the perception of firmness/softness is relative and can vary from person to person. For most people the Tuft & Needle would probably feel a little firmer than the medium BME but there are no "standard" definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer.

Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like "medium" for someone else or even "soft" for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they "rate" a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

I do have one question if anyone can answer. I know firm mattresses are recommended for people who sleep on their stomachs, and I was just curious how true this always is. I feel like I would be much more comfortable on my stomach on something softer, but I maybe perceiving things wrong.


Stomach sleepers will tend to do better on "firmer" mattress (not necessarily a "firm" mattress) because the risk of your hips/pelvis sinking down too much and sleeping in a swayback position and putting your spine out of alignment on a softer mattress is higher for stomach sleepers

In very general terms and based on "averages" ... side sleepers tend to need a softer mattress because the body has more curves that need to be "filled in" to provide suitable support (such as the waist) and more "pointy parts" (such as the hips and shoulders) that need to sink in more to relieve pressure when you are on your side and generally need thicker and softer upper layers that can contour to the shape of the body more effectively and more deeply. Back sleepers have less curves that need to be filled in (such as the small of the back or lumbar spine) and less "pointy" pressure points and generally do best with a little bit firmer mattress that has either thinner or firmer comfort layers to reduce the risk of their pelvis sinking into the mattress too much which can put the spine out of alignment and cause lower back pain. Stomach sleepers have the flattest and least "curvy" sleeping profile of all and so they tend to need a firmer mattress yet with thinner and/or firmer comfort layers to reduce the risk of their pelvis sinking into the mattress too much and sleeping in a swayback position which can put considerable strain on the lower back and also lead to lower back pain. Stomach sleeping is the "riskiest" sleeping position in terms of back and neck strain (the head is turned sideways which can strain the neck). For combination sleepers the best choice is generally a mattress with comfort layers that are "just enough" in terms of the thickness and softness of the upper layers to relieve pressure points when you sleep on your most pressure prone position (generally the side) but not so soft that the pelvis will sink into the mattress too deeply when you are sleeping on your back or stomach which can put your spine out of alignment.

Having said that ... not everyone fits inside the "averages" of other people so your own careful testing or personal sleeping experience and lack of any symptoms or discomfort is the best way to know whether any specific mattress is a good "match" for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences).

There is more about what I call primary or "deep" support and secondary or "surface" support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the "roles" of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between "support/alignment" and "comfort/pressure relief" and "feel" and how they interact together relative to different sleeping positions.

Phoenix
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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 22 Dec 2015 15:07 #8

Thanks, that's very helpful!

Phoenix wrote: Hi JCapZano,

I would keep in mind that the perception of firmness/softness is relative and can vary from person to person. For most people the Tuft & Needle would probably feel a little firmer than the medium BME but there are no "standard" definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer.

Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like "medium" for someone else or even "soft" for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they "rate" a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

Phoenix

I actually perceive the T&N as being a little softer, but I think you're right that most people would think it feels a little more firm, because I asked my girlfriend and she said the T&N is definitely more firm. After I told her what I thought she said the T&N is "definitely more firm, but at the same time it feels a little softer." I think that perception of it being soft must have more to do with the feel of the material, and less with the actual firmness. Luckily we both agree we like the T&N more.

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Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 06 Jan 2016 17:09 #9

Well i've been decided to I want to try another mattress, so I will be returning the T&N soon. I've analyzed my sleep a little and figured that I really don't like to sleep on my stomach, but i've been only doing it cause the mattress is too firm to sleep on my side. I have pretty broad shoulders, which I think is why, so i'm going to look for something a little softer. I have been looking into a few newer beds, and I might have some new information for you Pheonix. I was originally thinking of getting the Dreamfoam Gel Supreme (can't beat their price), but I think I would prefer to find a something not entirely memory foam in the comfort layer. Also I like the free returns of the millennial mattresses is very appealing, as i've already had to make more than the average amount of returns.

Luxi: I talked to the customer service about the construction of their mattress and this is what they sent me:
"3/4 Inch Quilt Loft – Quilt Foam, 1oz Fire Resistant Fiber Fill
Support Balancing Layer is made up of these 3 layers together)
3 1/2 inch SBT - A 4 lb density proprietary foam architecture that offers air flow and resists sagging and body impressions.
1 Inch Memory Foam Layer – 4 lb Density Visco Elastic Foam
1 1/2 inch Latex Layer - Dunlop Process, 100% Latex (20% Natural/80% Synthetic)
3 1/2 Foam Base Layer – 1.81lb High Density Support Foam
10 1/4 Total Thickness"
Being able to change between medium/soft is very appealing to me. Also their King and Queen are split, so my girlfriend can choose a different firmness if she wants. The durability of the "Support Balancing Layer" concerns me a little, just because there isn't anything like it. When I think about it, it seems a larger amount pressure is consistently being applied to a small amount of foam in the middle of that layer, which i'm worried would cause the quality to deteriorate quickly. However, I'm not too worried about this because they have some sort of 1000 day guarantee. Also i'm likely going to have to purchase a new mattress when I relocate when I start my residency in 2.5 years. Right now they are having a "holiday promotion" and offering $200 off, which puts it more in my price range.

Dromma: I didn't see anything about this mattress on here yet. It is offered in Med-soft and med-firm, which is appealing (i would go for medium soft). I messaged them about the materials, and one of the co-founders messaged me back:
"Thank you for your interest and inquiry. Our top foams are made out of the same density’s for both of our models. The firmness is dependent upon the base

For the Gel Comfort layer we use a a 4 pound 12 ILD and for the Latex layer we use an 11 ILD. The base of the soft model is a 1.8 pound 27 ILD and for the firm we use a 1.8 pound 33 ILD"
Also seems like the materials are high enough quality for my use.

Yogabed: On their website they list the bed as having 1" of their instant response foam, and 2" of their gel, but everything I research about the bed says it is .75" & 1.75". I figured they just improved it, but I messaged them to be sure. I never got a response, so I tried talking to someone in their chat boxes, and the response made me a little uneasy. The person I was talking too said that the bed they were selling is still the original yogabed, and then when I explained the difference in their advertised specs they said that as far as they know it hasn't changed, at least for the past 6 months. Very strange.

Bear: also on my list. I think the fact that it has memory foam in the top layer might make it a good choice, but it is only an inch, so i'm not sure.

Zotto: A lot more memory foam & soft, which I think might be the best choice for me. I like that it only has a little bit of Energex foam, which I think will give me the little bounce I want. I think I would order this one now if it was a little cheaper, but it is a little out of my price range (still an option though).

Getting a bed with latex in it again worries me a little bit, but maybe it will be fine in a combo. The BME wasn't for me, and I tried another pure talalay bed in a store, and really disliked it. It felt too much like I was on jello. I read that dunlop (I assume Dromma also uses dunlop, cause I know it's cheaper) is a lot less springy, so maybe it won't be as bad as i'm thinking. Right now i'm leaning towards Zotto or Luxi, but I have a lot of thinking to do :huh:

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Last edit: by JCapZano.

Buying a new mattress, thinking BB BME, was also considering T&N or Casper 06 Jan 2016 18:23 #10

Hi JCapZano,

Luxisleep is one of about a half a dozen new entries into the "simplified choice" mattress category that I haven't added yet to the list in the simplified choice topic here . They originally had a different name and website here ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: mileniasleep.com/
before they changed the name from Mileniasleep to Luxisleep.

One of the founders is David Farley who was the CEO of Anatomic Global which is owned by Foamex/FXI which is one of the largest foam pourers/manufacturers in North America along with several other companies in the industry as well. The other founder is Shannon his daughter.

You can see some of the original publicity about them here and here and here ADMIN NOTE:Removed 404 page link | Archived Footprint: examiner.com/article/luxi-is-latest-disruptor-online-mattress-sales[
and here .

They have an innovative design with the three different top layers that you mentioned (thanks for finding out the specs which I didn't know) that are glued together and enclosed in their own internal cover and can be used in 3 different configurations or firmness levels with either the the latex on top, or flipped with the high performance engineered polyfoam layer on top or with the three layers on the bottom of the mattress (for the firm which would be rarely used). The high performance engineered polyfoam also has a unique design which are somewhat like individual foam springs that act similar to buckling column gel (stiffer at first and then softer as they bend). They also have the option for a side to side split so that each side of a mattress can have a different firmness level and configuration for couples that have different needs and preferences.

As you mentioned the ability to choose 3 different firmness options is less common with the simplified choice mattresses (although there are several others) and the ability to change the firmness at home after a purchase is less common yet.. Each side of the mattress can also have a different firmness in the larger sizes for couples that have different needs and preferences.

The 1" of 4 lb memory foam, 1.5" of "mostly synthetic" latex, 3.5" of engineered high performance 4 lb polyfoam and the 3.5" 1.8 lb polyfoam base layer and the organic cotton cover are all good quality materials and there is only 3/4" inch of quilting foam in the cover so there are no lower quality materials or weak links in the mattress that would compromise the durability or useful life of the mattress (although I would add a "slight" caution for those that are in a BMI range of 30 or higher).

They also have a 100 day trial/refund period and a 1000 day period where their sleep specialists will work with their customers as needed to help them with re-configuring or customizing their mattress if that becomes necessary.

While they are a little more costly than some of the other simplified choice mattresses (without their current discount) ... The quality of their materials and their unique design would make them one of the "simplified choice" mattresses that I think would be well worth considering.

Thanks again for adding the specs of the mattress :)

Phoenix
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