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01 Aug 2015 03:31 - 01 Aug 2015 03:34 #1 by Cajen9669

There is a reason people only buy mattresses every 10 years...it has nothing to do with the mattress wearing out, it has to do with the amount of research and time spent doing it only allows for it to be done as seldom as possible. Worse than buying a car. But, I am trying to have fun along the way and enjoying my new OCD tendencies. :unsure: :S

I am 6' 230# side and back sleeper (mainly side); my wife is 5'5" 140 and is back sleeper. I also have a bad back. We have owned a latex mattress for several years, but it is time to replace it now. My wife really likes the feel of the Tempurpedic Supreme Cloud Breeze, but I REFUSE to pay that much for anything that does not have at least 2 wheels and take me places.

After much research, I have come up with what I feel is my final grouping... I am curious to hear from folks that have experience with any of theses companies or mattresses. I am also curious if given my size and sleeping habits if these are good choices for the long term. I really do like quality workmanship and products as they hold up longer, therefore justifying paying a little more... but only a little because you did your research (you guys know what I am talking about here ;) )

In perceived order of preference... willing to and may well change based upon what I hear back from folks.
Select Foam -- Cirus Supreme ES-11 (a little worried about BBB rating and complaint content)

Dream Foam-- 12" Gel Supreme (like it that they are sister company to Brooklyn Bedding - the BME medium is my 4th Choice

Leaf and Loom -- L&L Relaxed Firm

Again, any and all information, rumors, thoughts, good karma is welcome. Oh, and Phoenix, if you wish to comment that is also very welcome.

Last Edit: 01 Aug 2015 03:34 by Cajen9669. Reason: grammar correction

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01 Aug 2015 09:35 #2 by Geekymom1

Have you looked at Novosbed company? I am ordering from them to start with because of their superior reviews, quality materials and 120 day trial period. I also like that I don't have to pay taxes on my order, which saves me a little more money. I figured that I will know if I am happy with the mattress or not after a few months so the 120 day trial is really good. I fell that it is risk-free. If I don't like the product, I can always try something else, but they currently have the best trial period.

The Aria model is supposed to be comparable in firmness to the Tempurpedic Tempur Cloud Supreme (not the Breeze version). This model has just gone through a redesign to improve the airflow and does have a delay on delivery right now. Orders expected mid-August.

This company also will soon be offering a Classic II model that will be a med-firm level. It isn't on their website yet, but customer service shared that it will be available early to mid August and is supposed to be slightly firmer that the Tempurpedic Tempur Cloud Prima. Th Classic II will also have their new airflow design like the newly designed Aria mattress.

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01 Aug 2015 11:01 - 11 Dec 2015 01:57 #3 by Phoenix

Hi Cajen9669,

Welcome to the site ... and I'm glad you found us :)

In perceived order of preference... willing to and may well change based upon what I hear back from folks.
Select Foam -- Cirus Supreme ES-11 (a little worried about BBB rating and complaint content)

Dream Foam-- 12" Gel Supreme (like it that they are sister company to Brooklyn Bedding - the BME medium is my 4th Choice

Leaf and Loom -- L&L Relaxed Firm

Again, any and all information, rumors, thoughts, good karma is welcome. Oh, and Phoenix, if you wish to comment that is also very welcome.


There is more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists (based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you).

In terms of suitability ...

The first suggestion I would have is to confirm is that the Tempurpedic Supreme Breeze really is the best "match" for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post and with both of you on the mattress. This would be especially important with your bad back in combination with your higher weight because a mattress that is too soft for you certainly won't do your back any favors.

The Ultimate Dreams Supreme Gel is designed to be closely comparable to the firmness of the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme (which in turn is similar to the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme Breeze) and the Select Foam Cirrus Supreme is designed to be closely comparable to the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme Breeze so if you are confident that the Supreme Breeze really is a good match for both of you then both of these would certainly be "in the range" that would be suitable for you. Loom & Leaf compares their mattress to the Cloud Luxe Breeze on their website but I don't know if they are comparing them based on firmness and "feel" or based on the quality of the materials they are using but if it's based on firmness and feel then it would be a little softer than the Supreme Breeze which in turn could be more risky in terms of maintaining good alignment on the mattress over the course of the night.

I would also make sure you talk to each of your finalists on the phone because when you can't test a mattress in person before a purchase then most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart who can help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattresses and the options they have available that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked that they are familiar with, any special considerations you may have, and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about "matching" their specific mattress designs or firmness options to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences or even to other mattresses that they are familiar with than anyone else.

In terms of quality and durability ...

As you can see in the quality and durability guidelines here ... you are on the edge of the weight range where I would be cautious with the use of 4 lb memory foam which may soften or break down faster than higher density memory foams.

The Ultimate Dreams Supreme Gel uses 1.5" of softer 4 lb memory foam on top of 2.5" of firmer memory foam on top of an 8" 1.8 lb polyfoam support core so with 4" of 4 lb memory foam there would be a higher risk of foam softening which could reduce the useful life of a mattress relative to your weight range.

The Loom & Leaf uses a "belly band" of soft solid gel which in theory could help with alignment by providing some additional support and "holding up" the heavier parts of your body (hips and pelvis) but the top layer is 2" of convoluted 4 lb memory foam and convoluted foam would be less durable than solid layers of the same density foam. The 2.5" of 5.3 lb memory foam underneath this would be suitable for your body weight but there is also a 2" transition layer of polyfoam underneath this which is most likely 1.5 lb density and with your higher weight you would compress this layer more than someone who was lighter so it would also be lower density than I would be comfortable with in your weight range.

The Select Foam Cirrus Supreme uses 2" of 4 lb gel memory foam (non convoluted) on top of 2" of 5.3 lb gel memory foam on top of a base layer that would be more than 2 lb density so it has the least amount of lower density memory foam and a higher density base layer so it would likely be the most durable of your three choices and would be similar in terms of durability to the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme Breeze.

In terms of value ...

"Value" depends on all the objective, subjective, and intangible criteria that are part of a mattress purchase including the suitability of a mattress, the durability of a mattress, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you including of course the price and the options you have after a purchase to exchange or return the mattress and the cost involved just in case your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for.

In terms of price ... the Dreamfoam is by far the lowest price. They are $549 queen or $749 king less 10% if you order from the Dreamfoam site and you would also receive a free pillow bonus for your membership here. The significantly lower price may be enough to offset the potential lower durability of thicker layers of 4 lb memory foam. If you order from the Dreamfoam site they have a 45 day trial period and there is a $99 cost to return the mattress for a refund if it doesn't turn out to be a suitable choice in terms of PPP.

The Loom & Leaf is $999 queen or $1399 king which is almost twice the cost of the Dreamfoam. It has the potential advantage of the zoned construction but there is also some risk of durability issues relative to your weight range because of the quality/density of the foam layers they are using. They have a 100 day trial period and they don't return the shipping cost if your mattress doesn't turn out to be a suitable choice in terms of PPP but this would likely also be under $100.

Select Foam Cirrus Supreme is $1399 queen or $1699 king less the 5% discount for your membership here. They are the most costly of your three choices but they also use the highest quality materials and would likely also be the most durable choice out of the three. They have a 90 day trial period and there is no cost involved in returning the mattress for a refund if it doesn't turn out to be as suitable choice in terms of PPP.

There is also more about the different ways that one mattress can approximate or "match" another one in post #9 here . Select Foam also specifically designs their mattresses to be close approximations to the Tempurpedic Mattresses in terms of feel and firmness levels (although this can also be somewhat subjective) based partly on side by side comparisons in their store in Tampa and they use the same or better quality/density materials as Tempurpedic as well. As you mentioned though ... a few of their customers have experienced delays and customer service issues after their purchase including with refunds and I would certainly take this and the frustration that can go with it into account and factor it in as part of your decision about who you are most comfortable dealing with (see post #4 here ).

Hopefully this will help you with making your final choice between them :)

Phoenix

NOTE ADDED: Because of ongoing customer service issues and delays Select Foam's membership has been terminated and I would read the warning here before considering them.


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Last Edit: 11 Dec 2015 01:57 by Phoenix.

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01 Aug 2015 15:23 - 01 Aug 2015 15:34 #4 by Cajen9669

Thanks Geekymom1 and Phoenix! Yes, I checked Novosbed. I sleep warmer so I do not like the traditional memory foam mattresses. It has to be gel infused or gel memory (prob the same) for me to have a starting point interest. Their gel mattress does not have anywhere close to the density and design that I think would work for me.

Phoenix, I worried about every single point that you made about every mattress I listed. I have talked in depth with Chuck at DreamFoam, Mario at Brooklyn Bedding and Pedro at Select Foam.

You, rightfully so, rarely seem to offer specific suggestions or recommendations, instead offering a comprehensive material and construction of what we have questions on. I understand this as your suggestions for a specific singular brand or mattress could be deemed in conflict with what you do here with this site. With that said, I know that I am better off with a 5# top layer of gel infused foam and the denser additional layers and a solid core off 1.8+ Poly. I cannot seem to find a combo of this material in a gel mattress. The closest I have found, you pointed out is the Select Foam Cirus Supreme ES-11. I just have a trust issue with them and their cost is the highest... Not the best combo.

The DreamFoam 12" Gel Supreme wth 4" of 4# gel on top... IF my weight were to cause a faster deterioration or degrading of the foam, is it likely to be 1 yr out, 5 years out or is it just a gamble and it could be any time frame at all or even never? I am comfortable on the $1650 top end price range delivered for a quality mattress. The ~$700 price while not a throw away price may be suitable with an expected life of 5-7 years.

Do you know of a gel mattress with the right density values, design (layering) and overall quality construction? I am seriously thinking I may need to give up the memory foam and move to Latex construction... Or even worse a hybrid of pocketed coils, latex and gel... UGH! Which is another dark path of many more hours of research.

Last Edit: 01 Aug 2015 15:34 by Cajen9669. Reason: Add content relevant to the post

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01 Aug 2015 16:53 - 01 Aug 2015 16:59 #5 by Phoenix

Hi Cajen9669,

You, rightfully so, rarely seem to offer specific suggestions or recommendations, instead offering a comprehensive material and construction of what we have questions on. I understand this as your suggestions for a specific singular brand or mattress could be deemed in conflict with what you do here with this site. With that said, I know that I am better off with a 5# top layer of gel infused foam and the denser additional layers and a solid core off 1.8+ Poly. I cannot seem to find a combo of this material in a gel mattress. The closest I have found, you pointed out is the Select Foam Cirus Supreme ES-11. I just have a trust issue with them and their cost is the highest... Not the best combo.


You're right except that it's not only rarely but I never make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or materials because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP or how a mattress will "feel" to you based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see post #2 here ).

This actually has nothing to do with whether a manufacturer or retailer is a member of the site or not or whether providing this type of advice would be a "conflict" ... but because it's just not possible for anyone to provide these types or suggestions or recommendations for someone else outside of a manufacturer or retailer themselves that is providing information about their own mattresses based on their knowledge and experience with hundreds or thousands of customers and even then they can really only compare their own mattresses or mattresses that they are familiar with based on "averages". In other words no matter how knowledgeable I may be or how much I may know about mattresses or mattress materials ... I wouldn't be the most reliable source of this type of guidance or suggestions and I would be very skeptical about anyone or any website that claims that they can provide these types of suggestions or recommendations outside of the retailers or manufacturers themselves.

I can certainly help you to narrow down your options, help you focus on better quality/value choices that are available to you either locally or online, help you identify any lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress you may be considering, act as a fact check, answer any specific questions you may have along the way that I am able to help with, and help with "how" to choose but only you can decide which specific mattress is the best match for you based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

The DreamFoam 12" Gel Supreme wth 4" of 4# gel on top... IF my weight were to cause a faster deterioration or degrading of the foam, is it likely to be 1 yr out, 5 years out or is it just a gamble and it could be any time frame at all or even never? I am comfortable on the $1650 top end price range delivered for a quality mattress. The ~$700 price while not a throw away price may be suitable with an expected life of 5-7 years.


Unfortunately there is no way to quantify the useful life or a mattress or predict exactly when you will decide to replace it (because this is the only real measure of durability that counts) because it depends as much on where you are inside the comfort/support range that is suitable for you and your own sensitivity to changes in a mattress as it does on the mattress itself. If for example a mattress is close to being too soft for you and is on the edge of the comfort/support range that is suitable for you then even a very small amount of foam softening can take you outside the range that would be suitable for you and you may decide to replace the mattress much more quickly because you are no longer sleeping well on it even though the same mattress could last for considerably longer for someone else even if superficially they appear to be similar to you in terms of their body type and sleeping style (see post #2 here ). There is also more about the many variables that can affect the durability and useful life of a mattress relative to different people in post #4 here .

Having said that ... if a mattress uses materials that would be more suitable for those that are in a little lower weight range ... and the mattress is well inside the comfort/support range that is suitable for you ... and if you are closer to the "I can sleep on anything" end of the range than the "princess and the pea" end of the range ... and since you are only on the lower end of the weight range where I would be more cautious about using thicker layers of 4 lb memory foam ... then it would probably be realistic to expect somewhere in the range of "more than half" of the normal 7 - 10 year lifespan that would be reasonable to expect from a mattress that meets the minimum criteria that I would normally suggest for more average weight ranges. I would always keep in mind though that this is only just a guess because of all the variables involved and for some people it could be less and for some it could be more because nobody has a crystal ball that can predict when you will decide to replace a mattress because you are no longer sleeping "well enough" on it.

Do you know of a gel mattress with the right density values, design (layering) and overall quality construction? I am seriously thinking I may need to give up the memory foam and move to Latex construction... Or even worse a hybrid of pocketed coils, latex and gel... UGH! Which is another dark path of many more hours of research.


There is a link to a list of the better online memory foam options I'm aware of in the tutorial post (in the optional online step) that would be well worth looking through and while I don't know all the foam densities in all the mattresses there off the top of my head ... I know that the Christeli Madeline here does use 5.3 lb memory foam but it isn't gel memory foam if that's important to you although gel memory foams may not sleep cooler over the complete course of the night than some of the more breathable non gel memory foams that are available in the market. there is more about gel foams in post #2 here .

In general terms latex is certainly a more durable material than memory foam (even in higher density ranges) but I'm not sure why you would be saying "UGH" about latex/innerspring mattresses because the choice between different combinations of materials or types of mattresses is always a preference or budget choice rather than a "better/worse" choice (see this article ). There is also more about the differences between memory foam and latex in post #2 here . Some of the most knowledgeable people I know in the industry that could sleep on any type of mattress they wished to sleep on latex/spring hybrids (see post #13 here ).

It's certainly possible that memory foam mattresses may be your personal preference in which case they would be "best for you" but outside of preference or budget issues one type or category of mattress isn't inherently any "better" than any other.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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Last Edit: 01 Aug 2015 16:59 by Phoenix.

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01 Aug 2015 18:29 #6 by Cajen9669

Hahaha! Sorry to confuse B) the UGH comes from researching a whole NEW, to me, concept of coils. Coil count, pocketed, coil on coil, coil in coil, base layer, latex or memory foam on top of transition layer.... Just a ton of new to me variations. All that require research more research and more yet. Every component has to be investigated.

Please don't misread my meaning, I totally get it and truly appreciate all the time and effort you put in helping everyone with mattress questions. Your info is invaluable.

Still looking... Have I said lately how much being OCD sux? :P. When something matters a lot to me it requires I know I am getting what I want and what is want is right and what is right is good for me.

Anyway, thanks again Phoenix you ROCK.

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01 Aug 2015 19:30 #7 by Phoenix

Hi Cajeng669,

Hahaha! Sorry to confuse B) the UGH comes from researching a whole NEW, to me, concept of coils. Coil count, pocketed, coil on coil, coil in coil, base layer, latex or memory foam on top of transition layer.... Just a ton of new to me variations. All that require research more research and more yet. Every component has to be investigated.

Please don't misread my meaning, I totally get it and truly appreciate all the time and effort you put in helping everyone with mattress questions. Your info is invaluable.


Thanks for the clarification. I completely understand the reasons for your comments although I originally "interpreted" your post to mean that you thought that a hybrid mattress with springs was somehow worse than a memory foam mattress outside of individual preferences.

Still looking... Have I said lately how much being OCD sux? :P. When something matters a lot to me it requires I know I am getting what I want and what is want is right and what is right is good for me.


I think that if anything is worth the extra time, effort, and research that it can take to find the best possible choice it's a mattress since how well you sleep can have a bigger effect on your well being and how you feel when you are awake than almost any other purchase you can make.

Anyway, thanks again Phoenix you ROCK.


Thanks for the kind words ... and I'm looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding ... and of course any other comments or questions you may have along the way.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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01 Aug 2015 19:39 - 01 Aug 2015 20:42 #8 by Cajen9669

Knee deep in Chistali right now. Trying to find softness levels is a bit tricky... Working my way through. I like the makeup of their mattress... Right now leaning towards the Briella or Lux Estate.. Thanks again. More to come.

Last Edit: 01 Aug 2015 20:42 by Cajen9669. Reason: Wrong info in original post

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10 Jan 2019 01:24 #9 by 560andrising

Hi Cajen9669! I just wrote a lengthy post that didn't take, as I'd turned my hotspot off at work while reading. I try to see my data usage low, as my company doesn't provide wifi.

I am 6' 225 pounds and also looking at Christeli. I'm also anal about researching things to the point of near-insanity, so I feel your pain! Being careful has already helped me avoid two brands that recently lowered their density levels from 5.3 lb to the 4-lb range. It is such a bummer, though, as I thought I had it all figured out. I've quickly learned that one absolutely must contact a company before buying their mattress, just to be sure of the current specs.

So.... what did you end up getting? What did you find out when researching Christeli? It's been some years but I am hoping you'll surface with some insight for us heavier folks!

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