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CarpeDiem -->Naturepedic-->Soaring Heart-->Flobeds - need help deciding 10 Jul 2016 09:20 #1

Hi!

This is my first post here. I need help deciding on a mattress and would appreciate some input. B)

I am searching for an organic latex mattress or all natural latex mattress with as many organic components as possible because I have asthma and cannot tolerate off gassing. I also have dust mite allergies but I have a wool allergy to complicate matters. Problems: lower back and should and neck pain, motion transfer since my husband is heavier than me. We recently moved from abroad and do not have any bed so we need one quickly.

CarpeDiem bed

I thought an innerspring mattresses would offer the best support for my back and neck and shoulders and my heavier husband. We slept on a Svane Continental in Sweden which we made truly comfortable by adding a 3" non organic Dunlop Northern Naturals $400 topper with ILD 16-18. But Northern Naturals confirmed only a lifespan of 8 years on the topper so we needed a whole new bed. I came across Carpe Diem luxury Swedish beds by searching for Swedish beds, latex, organic. Carpe Diem containes certified New Zealand wool, sustainable wood frame and up to 3 layers of individually pocketed coils. There are no PBDE's in a Carpe Diem, they use a silicate to treat their mattresses. It is also a tall bed which we prefer.. I emailed and called US Distributor Anthony who promised a great deal and to get us a CarpeDiem king Sando mattress (without topper) for around $10k in 2 weeks. While Michael at Ergobeds in California quoted us $18,699 for a CarpeDiem Sando king bed with topper in 4 weeks. Still those prices seemed crazy. :blink:

Naturepedic

My daughter's mattresses were all Naturepedic which seemed a logical choice to avoid chemicals or off gassing. Yet Naturepedic was extremely uncomfortable, too firm and and the crib mattress with the waterproof side flipped down quickly discolored and they had to send us a replacement. Yet our daughter still ended up sleeping in our bed 80% of the time despite adding a $300 3" Northern Naturals non organic Dunlop topper. Still they are organic so we visited a local show room and got a quote for $5k for the king Naturepedic EOS firm with 3" soft organic latex over 8" firm support individually pocketed coils with organic cotton + wool including a platform bed frame with leather type headboard. It felt very comfortable and supportive in the 3 minutes we spent laying on it in the show room though the metal springs definitely did have some motion transfer. It would be 8-10 weeks for delivery.

But I became concerned about sleeping on metal components since there is an electrical junction box on a pole 30 feet from our bed and we are within 1700 feet of a cell phone tower. I have a Trifield Meter 100XE that shows EMF radiation constantly hopping between 1 and 2 and when I hold it directly against the bedroom wall closest the electrical junction pole it pegs the needle. In Sweden the meter never registered any EMF radiation in our apartment over 1 and the meter needle was never constantly hopping around like it is in the US. I decided to look at all natural or organic latex mattresses instead because I just did not want to feel like I was sleepy on a bunch of antennas for EMF radiation. :sick:

Soaring Heart

We went into the local Seattle show room and tried several mattress configurations and ended up liking the king Certified Organic Dunlop Madrona 5 Zoned mattress. However the mattress was wrapped in wool for fireproofing which is not great for my wool allergies. And the 5 zones were configured strangely (soft-firm-extra firm-firm-soft) with extra firm support at the hip. This is a terrible configuration for side sleepers pushing your hips up higher than your shoulders but might be good for back sleepers. However I really question the marketing of a mattress based on staying in one position all night long. I do not think back sleeping vs. side sleeping is not really indicative of how we sleep through the entire night For example I fall to sleep on my side and wake up on my back. I also tried the solid Linden firm (27 ILD I think) 8" certified organic Dunlop latex mattress which was better but not fantastic. And again the mattress only came wrapped in wool. Add in the 8 to 12 weeks waiting time for the Artisan wood frame and it was not optimal for us. :S

Flobeds

I see that Flobeds received lots of great reviews. I was intrigued by switchable zones of the vZone mattress and the choosing of your layers firmness. It was a tinkerer's bed and I liked that idea initially. But I am now overwhelmed by the choices Flobeds offers. Particularly when it comes to choosing the firmness of the vZone and the other layers. Add in the fact that Flobeds offers a Luxury Zoned mattress with a flexible European slat or flat slat base and I am even more confused about what level of firmness or support I will end up with. I have emailed Flobeds 3 or 4 times with a litany of questioned but their answers never seem to firmly resolve my understanding of what we will be getting. :huh:

Questions for Mattress Underground:

Would you recommend a European Slat system over a flat slat system for the base to a vZone Flobeds mattress?

Won't the arched European slat system cause a dip in the middle of a dual king zoned mattress?

Won't European slat support be uneven if you do not sleep perfectly parallel to slat foundation?

What difference will an extra 3" natural Talalay core + sateen encased horsehair topper + coir layer make in the Luxury Performance Flobeds mattress vs. the vZone without the coir or the horsehair or the extra core?

Is there a tall king platform bed frame out there that can support a vZone mattress with center support and appropriately spaced slats using just 4 legs and no metal?

Thanks!

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CarpeDiem -->Naturepedic-->Soaring Heart-->Flobeds - need help deciding 10 Jul 2016 11:53 #2

Hi Wll,

While I can certainly help with "how" to choose ... It's not possible to make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see mattress firmness/comfort levels in post #2 here ).

I'm not sure what you've read since you found the site but just in case you haven't read it yet ... the first place to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice ... and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Other than these "basics" ... this may be a rather lengthy reply since I would question some of the assumptions you may be making that could be making your choice much more difficult than it needs to be.

I am searching for an organic latex mattress or all natural latex mattress with as many organic components as possible because I have asthma and cannot tolerate off gassing.


The only reliable way to to assess the "safety" of different materials in more general terms is based on lab tests and the certifications they have for harmful substances and VOCs so that you have some assurance than the VOCs are below the testing limits for the certification. If the materials in a mattress or the mattress itself has a reliable "safety" certification then for most people they would certainly be "safe enough" ... regardless of the type of material or the name of the manufacturer on the label or whether the materials are natural or synthetic or have an organic certification.

All the latex you are likely to encounter (either Dunlop or Talalay that is made with either natural or synthetic rubber or a blend of both) will have a reliable certification such as Oeko-Tex, Eco-Institut, Greenguard Gold or C2C and based on actual testing I would consider any type or blend of latex (regardless of whether it is natural or organic) to be a very "safe" material in terms of harmful substances and VOC's (offgassing).

Most people that are looking for an "organic" mattress or materials are usually concerned more with "safety" than whether the materials have an actual organic certification but they have come to believe that "organic" latex is somehow "safer" than latex that doesn't have an organic certification. Much of this can be based on some aggressive marketing about "organic" latex which implies that it's somehow "better" than non organic latex. There is more information about the three different levels of organic certifications in post #2 here and some of the benefits of an organic certification in post #3 here and there is more about the different types of organic and safety certifications such as Oeko-tex, Eco-Institut, Greenguard Gold, C2C, and CertiPUR-US in post #2 here and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and there are also some comments in post #42 here that can help you decide whether an organic certification is important to you for environmental, social, or personal reasons or whether a "safety" certification is enough.

While it may be more information than you are looking for ... there is also a lot more information in post #2 here and the more detailed posts and information it links to about safe, natural, organic, "chemical free", and "green" mattresses and mattress materials that can help you sort through some of the marketing information and terminology that you will encounter in the industry and can help you differentiate between them and answer "how safe is safe enough for me" and that can help you decide on the type of materials and components you are most comfortable having in your mattress or on the certifications that may be important to you. These types of issues are complex and are generally specific to each person and their individual sensitivities, circumstances, criteria, beliefs, and lifestyle choices.

I also have dust mite allergies


There is more information about dust mites and allergies and methods that can be used to control dust mite populations or other allergens that are related to mattresses in post #2 here and in post #3 here . There is also more about allergy encasements in post #2 here that may also be helpful.

but I have a wool allergy to complicate matters.

However the mattress was wrapped in wool for fireproofing which is not great for my wool allergies.


All of the mattresses you mentioned contain wool but wool allergies or sensitivities are generally contact allergies or sensitivities and it would be unlikely that they would be an issue in a mattress. There is more about wool allergies or sensitivities in post #2 here and in post #4 here .

I thought an innerspring mattresses would offer the best support for my back and neck and shoulders and my heavier husband.


I certainly wouldn't assume that one type or category of mattress would necessarily be "better" than any other in terms of "support" or any other part of PPP.

Assuming that the materials in a mattress you are considering are durable enough for your body type and meet the quality/durability guidelines here relative to your weight range ... the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses are more of a preference and a budget choice than a "better/worse" choice (see this article ).

Each category can include hundreds or sometimes thousands of different mattresses with different designs, different "feels", different characteristics, and different firmness levels. Every individual layer and component in a mattress (including the cover and any quilting material) will affect the feel and response of every other layer and component both above and below it and the mattress "as a whole" so each mattress category will generally include some mattresses that will be a good "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP and others that use the same type of materials and components and are in the same category may but have a different design or firmness level that may be completely unsuitable for you to sleep on ... even if it uses the same general type of materials and components that would be just as durable.

There are no PBDE's in a Carpe Diem


There aren't any PBDE's is any mattress that has a reliable certification.

I emailed and called US Distributor Anthony who promised a great deal and to get us a CarpeDiem king Sando mattress (without topper) for around $10k in 2 weeks. While Michael at Ergobeds in California quoted us $18,699 for a CarpeDiem Sando king bed with topper in 4 weeks. Still those prices seemed crazy. :blink:


I completely agree that there would be little to no benefit to spending this much on a mattress for the vast majority of consumers. There could be cases where a mattress in this budget range may be "worth it" for a particular person that isn't price sensitive, where how they feel "about" a mattress may be just as important as how they feel when they sleep "on" the mattress, or that has specific and clearly identifiable criteria that aren't available in lower budget ranges and that would make a legitimate difference in how well or how long you would sleep on a mattress, but this would be very unusual and in general I would need a very compelling reason that clearly indicated there was "enough" of a difference in "real life" (and not just marketing claims) compared to many other mattresses that may be just as suitable in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP, just as durable, and that are in much lower budget ranges to justify the much higher cost.

But I became concerned about sleeping on metal components


You can see some comments about innersprings and electromagnetic (EMF) fields in posts #2 and #3 here . It's certainly not something that would concern me in any way.

Yet Naturepedic was extremely uncomfortable, too firm


Most manufacturers make many mattresses with a range of firmness levels but any specific mattress that is "comfortable" for one person may be very uncomfortable for someone else. This would have less to do with the manufacturer than the specific mattress or mattresses you tried. I would also keep in mind that children need firmer mattresses than would be comfortable for many adults.

And the 5 zones were configured strangely (soft-firm-extra firm-firm-soft) with extra firm support at the hip.


I'm not sure why you are thinking this is a "strange" zoning configuration. This is a common configuration for zoning because the hips/pelvis is the heaviest part of the body and can be better supported by firmer zones in the center of the mattress.

Zoning systems can sometimes be useful and worth considering for people that have more difficulty finding a mattress with the right "balance" between comfort/pressure relief (under the shoulders especially) and support/alignment (under the hips/pelvis especially) or who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to "match" to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here and the additional posts it links to but the only way to know whether any specific mattress (zoned or otherwise) will be a good "match" for you in terms of PPP will be based on your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in the tutorial) or your own personal experience.

I was intrigued by switchable zones of the vZone mattress and the choosing of your layers firmness.


One of the advantages of a component mattress with a zip cover that has individual layers is that you have good options after a purchase to fine tune the comfort and/or support of a mattress both before and after a purchase (either by rearranging layers or exchanging layers or components) and if one of the layers softens or breaks down before the others (usually one of the softer upper layers) or if your needs or preferences change over time (as a result of a weight change for example) you can just replace a single layer or component instead of replacing the whole mattress.

As you mentioned the vZone is also unique because in addition to customized layers it also has the option of customizing the zoning configuration as well. There is also more about Flobeds vZone in post #4 here and having the ability to rearrange the zones after a purchase can also be an advantage because it allows you to customize and experiment with different zoning combinations after a purchase to find the zoning configuration that works best for you if your original zoning configuration doesn't work as well as you hoped for.

I have emailed Flobeds 3 or 4 times with a litany of questioned but their answers never seem to firmly resolve my understanding of what we will be getting. :huh:


When you can't test a mattress in person then the most reliable source of guidance is always a more detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer that has your best interests at heart and who can help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattresses and the properties and "feel" of the materials they are using (fast or slow response, resilience, firmness etc) and the options they have available that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them, any local testing you have done or mattresses you have slept on and liked or other mattresses you are considering that they are familiar with, and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. They will know more about "matching" their specific mattress designs and firmness levels to different body types, sleeping positions, and preferences (or to other mattresses that they are familiar with) than anyone else.

A phone call will generally be a much more effective source of reliable guidance and information than an email (see post #4 here ).

Would you recommend a European Slat system over a flat slat system for the base to a vZone Flobeds mattress?

Won't the arched European slat system cause a dip in the middle of a dual king zoned mattress?

Won't European slat support be uneven if you do not sleep perfectly parallel to slat foundation?


There is more about flexible slat systems in post #2 here and the posts it links to. Since a flexible slat system is an "active" part of a sleeping system (just like any other layer or component either in, under, or over a mattress that responds to the compression forces that come from sleeping on a mattress and flexes or compresses when you sleep on it) ... the only reliable way to know whether a flexible slat system would be an improvement for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP compared to a rigid non flexing support system under the same mattress would be based on your own actual experience when you test it or sleep on it in person and compare both types of support systems under the same mattress. Depending on the design of the mattress, for some people it could be neutral, for some people it could be an improvement, and for some it could be detrimental. The flobeds slat system has a separate zone under the shoulder softer zoning under the shoulders may be helpful for some people but the flexible slats would generally be less noticeable under a thicker mattress than under a thinner one or for lighter people than heavier people. Most people wouldn't notice a dip in the middle or "uneven" support since the curved slats would be compressed and be close to flat under the weight of the mattress and the people sleeping on it.

What difference will an extra 3" natural Talalay core + sateen encased horsehair topper + coir layer make in the Luxury Performance Flobeds mattress vs. the vZone without the coir or the horsehair or the extra core?


This would depend on the specifics of the layering in both mattresses you are comparing but you can see some comments about the design and materials in their Luxury Performance mattress in post #2 here .

Is there a tall king platform bed frame out there that can support a vZone mattress with center support and appropriately spaced slats using just 4 legs and no metal?


Platform beds are more of a furniture item which is somewhat outside the main focus of the forum and aren't something that I spend a great deal of time researching since there are so many different options available and mattresses take up most of my available time. Having said that ... there are a few options listed towards the end of the foundation reference post here that may be helpful.

I would be cautious about a platform bed with only 4 legs since it wouldn't have any center support to the floor which would increase the risk of sagging and can void many mattress warranties.

Once you have narrowed down your options to a list of finalists that are all choices between "good and good" and you have confirmed that none of them have any lower quality materials or "weak links" in their design and if at this point there are no clear winners between them (which is usually a good indication that you have done some good research) then you are in the fortunate position that any of them would likely be a suitable choice and post #2 here can help you make a final choice based on your local testing and/or your more detailed conversations with each of them, your confidence about PPP and the suitability of each one, their prices, the options you have after a purchase to fine tune the mattress or exchange or return the mattress or individual layers, any additional extras that are part of each purchase, and on "informed best judgement" based on all the other objective, subjective, and intangible parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Phoenix
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