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Getting closer to diy mattress build, need some advice please

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23 Dec 2016 03:22 #1 by Alpharalpha
Hello, originally I was going to use hr firm foam for support and hr med soft on each side for a double sided bed as I am familiar with poly foams; but as I've been reading up on the latex I'm considering it as the comfort layers, I can get 5.6lb latex in a med (30==do you think that is soft enough for side sleeping and also firm enough for sitting up in bed reading?) and use a firm hr poly foam either 40-50 ild. Whenever I find blended talalay it doesn't specify the density, is this normal? Also can you suggest some good encasements that don't have wool==I live in FL--that would provide adequate protection for latex?

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23 Dec 2016 12:59 #2 by Phoenix
Hi Alpharalpha,

I've been reading up on the latex I'm considering it as the comfort layers, I can get 5.6lb latex in a med (30==do you think that is soft enough for side sleeping and also firm enough for sitting up in bed reading?)

A Dunlop latex at 5.6 lb. would be about a 90 kgM3, which converts roughly to an upper 30 / lower 40 ILD. Most manufacturers would consider this density most appropriate for a support core or a transition layer in a firmer mattress.

Whenever I find blended talalay it doesn't specify the density, is this normal?

Talalay is normally classified by ILD, whether or not it is blended. Dunlop latex is classified usually either by density or ILD.

It's important to realize that there is no such thing as a "single number ILD" for any Dunlop core that will be accurate and manufacturers list an ILD or even a range as a convenience to make approximate comparisons. This is also true to a smaller degree with Talalay although in practical terms it is much more consistent even though it is also "averaged" (in the case of blended Talalay). Even if the ILD is measured and "averaged" across the layer ... it will vary by individual layer and will also vary depending on whether you have the bottom half or the top half of an original Dunlop core that produced the rating. The top 3" of a molded 6" Dunlop core will generally be softer than the bottom 3". It can also vary depending on which side of a layer you are measuring.

Dunlop and Talalay aren't directly comparable in terms of firmness using only ILD numbers because there are several factors that can affect how soft or firm a mattress (or an individual layer) feels besides just the ILD of the material (see post #4 here ) and Dunlop and Talalay that are the same thickness and ILD won't feel the same in terms of their firmness for most people because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). There is more about the difference between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here .

Also can you suggest some good encasements that don't have wool==I live in FL--that would provide adequate protection for latex?

You can scroll down the list of the different mattress cover vendors in the component post here . Some will have wool quilted in the cover (which is excellent at temperature and humidity regulation) and some will offer stretch-knit covers with nothing quilted to it.

Phoenix

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24 Dec 2016 03:35 #3 by Alpharalpha
Ok, found some covers that'll work. As I'm wanting a double sided mattress I'd be going with 2 pieces of 2" talalay, for a side sleeper that's 200 lbs would you think the soft 20 ild or med 30 ild would be best? With a support core of 3.0 lb hr poly, again would the 34 density or 44 density be best for support core. I'd save a couple hundred dollars going with the poly core over the 5.6 lb dunlop, and spend $100 more going with the talalay over the 3.0 lb 24 density hr poly. Then around $100 for a cover. This arrangement'd cost $800. A bit more than I originally planned on spending but you are correct about foambymail, I checked their specs, their hq foam's support factor's 1.9 while foamonline's hr foam's support factor's 2.5 so seems worth the extra price.

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24 Dec 2016 07:23 #4 by Phoenix
Hi alpharalpha,

As I'm wanting a double sided mattress I'd be going with 2 pieces of 2" talalay, for a side sleeper that's 200 lbs would you think the soft 20 ild or med 30 ild would be best?

My answer here would be the same as I’ve provided to you in the past where it wouldn’t be possible for me to tell what might be comfortable to you in a custom mattress that you’re making for yourself. Even foam experts in the mattress industry are often surprised at what a mattress feels like in “real life” versus their theoretical design, and many of them have performed this for a living for decades.

With a support core of 3.0 lb hr poly, again would the 34 density or 44 density be best for support core.

I’m guessing you mean an ILD/IFD of 34 or 44. I know you were trying to approximate the feel in a couch cushion you’ve slept on before, and to assist you in that endeavor, the Polyurethane Foam Association lists common IFD of a mattress polyfoam core and firmer seat cushions in the 30-36 range, and firm mattress cores and thin seat cushions in the 36-45 range.

but you are correct about foambymail, I checked their specs, their hq foam's support factor's 1.9 while foamonline's hr foam's support factor's 2.5 so seems worth the extra price.

If you are considering ordering from Foambymail (AKA FBM or Foam Factory and other names as well) then I would read this post and this post and this topic (about their polyfoam and sources) and this post (presumably from a past employee) before buying anything or considering them as a reliable supplier that provides accurate information about their foam products.

I would consider foamonline to be a reliable supplier and they are included as one of the better online options for polyfoam I'm aware of in the component post here .

Phoenix

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20 Jan 2017 09:18 - 20 Jan 2017 09:33 #5 by Alpharalpha
Ok, I've decided on going with all latex. I have purchased a 4" topper encasement for 3" blended talalay latex. I'm considering a cautious approach of first buying 3" firm blended talalay (36 ild) seeing how that feels and then deciding if I want that for the top comfort layer, and if not use it for support layer and then purchase medium (28 ild) and use those together. Just pure speculation here but as I've read that 2 layers will become denser together than one layer, would then combining 3" 36 ild & 3" 28 ild result in a firmness in some way between the 2 densities?
I received some samples from savvy and while it was a soft talalay and medium dunlop I got a general idea and can see sleep ez's suggestion of medium talalay comfort and firm dunlop support for my weight and sleep style is probably right on I had requested a medium talalay sample but I guess they just have a set they send, the soft is way too soft so I have no way of gauging the med' talalay but can get a feel of what firm dunlop support would be from feeling the med.
And a fading away 3rd option is to use the talalay topper along with a firm innerspring mattress, just as it feels like a more balanced approach, going all latex feels a bit more nervous like jumping into water off a bridge compared to wading in from shore--though I do believe the latex support will hold up longer than innerspring, I do kinda like innerspring, I've actually slept better in my life on all foam surprisingly when I started using motorhomes and sailboats, etc. That is why initially I was set on polyfoam as I've used it extensively with great results.
Project is progressing though, I have a 360' topper cover now from heavenly dreams and the frame from kd frames has arrived--and within a few days of ordering it btw. Have to do some sanding and find a good oil paint for it so this buys me some time with the mattress selection. Am considering Mayer's for the blended talalay topper purchase, I think I read on here that those are manufactured by latex international? Do you or anyone reading this have any experience with buying from Mayers; wondering if they are odor free like the ones I received from savvy? Be nice to have it all together :-)
Last edit: 20 Jan 2017 09:33 by Alpharalpha.

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20 Jan 2017 11:10 #6 by Phoenix
HI alpharalpha,

I’m happy you’ve made a decision!

I have purchased a 4" topper encasement for 3" blended talalay latex. I'm considering a cautious approach of first buying 3" firm blended talalay (36 ild) seeing how that feels and then deciding if I want that for the top comfort layer, and if not use it for support layer and then purchase medium (28 ild) and use those together. Just pure speculation here but as I've read that 2 layers will become denser together than one layer, would then combining 3" 36 ild & 3" 28 ild result in a firmness in some way between the 2 densities?

All the layers of a mattress actually compress simultaneously, not sequentially, and they will each compress to different percentages of their thickness depending on their position on the mattress, the firmness of each layer, the compression modulus of the material, the thickness of each layer, and the compression force that they are exposed to (which depends on the weight of the part of the body in contact with the mattress and the surface area that is bearing that weight which is constantly changing as you sink into the mattress more or change sleep positions). When combining two layers together the “completed piece” would have a new density, which would simply be equal to the new combined mass per unit volume.

Ad far as the combined feel, "going through" a layer is commonly used as a way to explain things because there is a different amount of force that "goes through" a layer and compresses the next layer of the mattress depending on the hysteresis of the material (how much energy it absorbs) and on how point elastic the material is (how much compression affects or is affected by the surrounding areas of the layer) ... it would be just as accurate to say that you will "feel through" the top layer meaning that you will feel the properties of the next layer down to different degrees. Even the softest latex won't "bottom out" (meaning it has no more ability to compress because the walls of the cell structure are fully compressed on top of each other) if it is on top of another foam layer and will have the ability to compress more yet even though very soft latex will compress to a much larger percentage of its thickness than a firmer layer. Every layer of a mattress affects and is affected by every other layer in the mattress to different degrees.

The compression of each layer (mainly controlled by thickness, firmness, compression modulus, hysteresis, and position along with a few other specs) are what creates the pressure relieving cradle of a mattress in the top layers which re-distributes weight and pressure on the bony prominences and pressure points of the body while the resistance to further compression of the deeper layers is what "stops" the heavier parts of the body from sinking down too far and putting the spine and joints out of their natural alignment. The balance between the opposing needs of pressure relief and spinal alignment is the main factor behind all mattress design and theory and why different mattresses match the body types and sleeping positions and preferences of different people ... or don't.

There is no formula that can predict with any certainty what type of layering you may do best with that can possibly be more accurate than your own personal experience and without this the next best way to decide on the design of a mattress is to use the "averages" of a manufacturer for people of your weight range, body type, sleeping style, and personal preferences. These "averages" may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer depending on the specific designs and options that they have available (including all the components such as the cover or quilting layers which can also have a significant effect on how the mattress feels and performs not just the latex layers). You’ll have your best guidance when you initially test you 36 ILD piece once you get it home.

Am considering Mayer's for the blended talalay topper purchase, I think I read on here that those are manufactured by latex international? Do you or anyone reading this have any experience with buying from Mayers; wondering if they are odor free like the ones I received from savvy? Be nice to have it all together

That latex is from Talalay Global (formerly Latex International), The Savvy Rest Talalay is from Radium, and is a 100% NR, versus blended. Most people say that latex has a “slightly sweet” or vanilla-ish smell. It is very slight and tends to dissipate quite quickly.

Phoenix

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04 Feb 2017 03:34 #7 by Alpharalpha
When sellers are selling blended talalay from LI if no further specifications are given is it implied that is talatech or is there a more generic sold?

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04 Feb 2017 08:23 #8 by Phoenix
Hi alpharalpha,

When sellers are selling blended talalay from LI if no further specifications are given is it implied that is talatech or is there a more generic sold?

Talatech is a trade name for Talalay latex made by Latex International / Talalay Global. You’d have to check with any retailer as to whether it was natural or blended.

Phoenix

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04 Feb 2017 17:42 #9 by Alpharalpha
Sometimes I'm not too clear. What I was trying to ask was if when the sellers don't specifically say Talatech when selling blended talalay from Talalay Global if it is all Talatech or maybe there might have been a lower quality latex below Talatech, but it's seeming now that Talatech is the name they use for their Talalay in general. What threw me off was looking at sleeplikeabear there's Celsion and some other lines of Talalay and I'm still new to all this.. Since there can be some significant price differences in blended talalay from LI I didn't want to unknowing order a lower end product out of ignorance. Sleeplikeabear's price is I think 329 3" twin xl while Ktt and Mayer are around 100 less for the same size, but Sleeplikeabear was the only one to specifically use the word Talalatech, that is why I was asking.

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05 Feb 2017 10:17 #10 by Phoenix
Hi alpharalpha,

The latex produced by Talalay Global would all be a good quality material. Their blended latex is 70/30 SBR/NR.

Celsion is their trade name for their phase change material additive, also called Active Fusion in the Pure Talalay Bliss line.

Phoenix

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