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normal Getting closer to diy mattress build, need some advice please

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11 Dec 2017 22:12 #71 by Alpharalpha

Yes, it was due to my experience with the Nature and Beautiful & we both are side sleepers with shoulder issues. But he had also suggested purchasing layers separately to get a feel for what I want then put it all in a cover, and I think that's best. I'm definitely going with Radium blended talalay and this is why I asked about my sleep ez's radium samples, I have the latex bliss mattresses to go on for laying on a complete setup but only these samples for the Radium. I've read that Radium latex is firmer in the same ilds as TG, is this the case for blended? I would like to keep to my flippable mattress and I might get lucky; I'm going to get the 36 (or equivalent) 6" core and then a 3" 19 ild comfort layer, if those work out I can get 2 sided covers for both, if not I'll get the 3rd layer of 24 ild and just put it all in a one sided cover and just take it all out less often to flip (I'm just not comfortable going with a 32 ild core, as everything I've read says if inbetween go with the firmer as it's never going to get any firmer then when you buy it.) fortunately it's a twin xl so not an impossible feat. One thing I notice is the bare latex seems to make me a bit itchy where it touches, but that just be in my head as from what I've read latex sensitivities are quite rare in the mattresses, is this so? Thank you.

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12 Dec 2017 09:55 #72 by Phoenix

Hi alpharalpha,

You may have seen this already, but just in case:

Talalay Global's blended Talalay comes in target ILD's of 14, 19, 24, 28, 32, 36, 40, & 44. You can see the approximate density of each of these in post #2 here .

Radium blended Talalay comes in target ILD's (rounded to the closest whole number) of 11, 15, 19, 22, 25, 29, 34, & 40.

Talalay Global uses a filler in their latex formula while Radium doesn't.

Talalay Global 100% natural Talalay comes in N1 (14 - 19), N2 (20 - 24), N3 (25 - 29), N4 (30 - 34), & N5 (35 - 42) with nominal midpoints of about 17, 22, 27, 32, 38.

Radium 100% natural has ILD targets (rounded to the closest whole number) of 9, 13, 18, 23, 28, 33, 39, and 44

You can see a chart for Radium's ILD range here .

Most of the manufacturers that I've talked that work extensively with both say that they have a “comparable feel" although of course this is subjective. The difference between them would be relatively small and would probably reflect the different ILD's, amount of filler, and any other differences in compounding formulas and pin core patterns they have. Radium has commented that they are unsure of the slight difference, and they think that perhaps is varies with how TG does their ILD testing. And remember that ILD is one of the factors determining overall foam plushness. Regardless, the differences would be small.

As for your latex “sensitivity” (imagined or real), there are different types of latex "allergies" that can be aggravated by frequent contact with the allergen (which usually aren't the latex proteins themselves) but it would be no more likely to have an allergy to the latex proteins themselves than to many other materials that are used in mattresses and there is also no contact with the latex in a mattress because it has a cover.

While it is a complex subject, the essence of it is that there are basically 3 types of latex allergy or sensitivities (although two of them aren't really an allergy to latex).

The first of these is irritant contact dermatitis which usually comes from an actual irritation to the skin such as from repeated donning of latex gloves or exposure to the powder on them often in combination with skin sweating or frequent hand washing. This is a result of physical skin irritation and wouldn't apply to latex foam.

The second and most common of the "latex allergies" contact dermatitis allergies (type IV latex allergy) which is most likely a reaction to the chemicals additives or substances that are added to the latex in the manufacturing process and not the latex itself. This is more prevalent for those who have handled latex in various occupations over a period of time (such as health care workers using latex gloves). This is the less severe of the types of "latex allergies" and while it is not "common" it is also not so rare ... particularly among certain occupations. Because latex foam has had most of the surface proteins and any remaining unreacted materials washed away during manufacturing (unlike other types of non foamed latex like gloves, condoms, balloons etc.), this is far less common with latex foam. This type of "latex allergy" is a contact allergy (or sensitivity) and the fact that most of the surface proteins and additives are washed away and that the latex is covered makes this type of allergy much less of an issue with latex mattresses. There is more detailed information and links in this thread and latex foam is not mentioned in any of the literature I've seen or linked as a possible source of this type of allergy.

The last type of latex allergy is type 1 which is much more rare but much more serious. This type of allergy can cause an anaphylactic reaction with breathing difficulties and swelling and like a bee sting in a small portion of the population can be life threatening. These people are almost always very aware of their allergy and have to go to great extremes to avoid natural latex which is very difficult because it is so widely used in our society. They for example have to check in restaurants where they eat that the workers aren't wearing gloves with latex or they could have a severe reaction. This would be connected to the proteins found in natural latex which would be missing in synthetic latex.

You could be having a slight issue with the Type IV sensitivity, or it could be small reaction to some of the other materials present in the latex, or as latex is quite “sticky” it could simply be an issue of the high coefficient of friction of the foam causing a bit of redness. But as your finished mattress will be covered I personally wouldn’t have much of a concern.

Phoenix


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11 Jan 2018 05:40 #73 by Alpharalpha

Thanks for that info' I am getting ready to order as I now know what ilds latex I want from my experience with the Beautiful and Nature. I see on Radium's ilds that there are a +/- range, is this the same for TG? Is Radium's blend firmer or softer than the same ild in TGs or about the same? I'm looking at getting a 6" around 36 ild core so do you think the 34 or 40 is going to be closer? Then a 3" comfort layer of around 24ild again either 25 or 22. I will buy these 2 first and if I decide I need a softer top layer I will get a zippered 2 sided topper with 19 ild in it.
I have a couple of options here, either way I'm buying from Mattresses.net and they can make a sealed 2 sided 6" core mattress and a sealed 2 sided topper--which is nice as it makes flipping my mattress often as I like. Though I don't know how I feel if I end up needing that 2nd topper having 3 layers like that. I'd put an encasement over at least the bottom 2 and maybe all 3.
I'm starting to give some consideration for practicality's sake to their one sided Adjustable mattress which has the 6" core and 3" comfort layer together in a zippered mattress, I have watched the video of them putting it together and wanted to ask you if you think if occasionally (like 1-2x a year) opening up the cover and taking out the latex to flip them is reasonable--I do only have a twin xl--or would this not be feasible long term? Another reason the Adjustable is appealing is if I needed to I could exchange layers. And I was thinking that if I get that 19 ild topper that is the layer that would be getting most of the wear so flipping and eventually replacing that one. Looking at my frame, would a 12" mattress in twin xl have a tendency to roll off at the sides?

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11 Jan 2018 11:01 #74 by Phoenix

Hi alpharalpha,

I see on Radium's ilds that there are a +/- range, is this the same for TG?


All ILDs are ranges and not exact numbers, +/- 2 or so is usually a good guide for Talalay.

Is Radium's blend firmer or softer than the same ild in TGs or about the same? I'm looking at getting a 6" around 36 ild core so do you think the 34 or 40 is going to be closer?


Suppliers have told me that the ILDs don’t necessarily “line up” between Radium and TG (Radium thinks this may be due to how TG measures their ILD, but they’re really not sure). I would use the advice of any supplier you’re thinking about using as to how they feel if Radium’s S8 or S9 most closely approximates what you’re attempting to copy.

if you think if occasionally (like 1-2x a year) opening up the cover and taking out the latex to flip them is reasonable--I do only have a twin xl--or would this not be feasible long term?


There’s nothing wrong with doing that – it’s a good idea.

Looking at my frame, would a 12" mattress in twin xl have a tendency to roll off at the sides?


I’m not sure what you mean with this question. The mattress itself won’t have a tendency to roll off and should stay quite “square”. Regarding an individual rolling off from the side, while there is no specific edge reinforcement built into a latex component system, you can usually sleep quite close to the edge because of the point elasticity of the latex without fear of “rolling off”, but the edge of course wouldn’t be as hard as one using a hard polyfoam tub.

Phoenix


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11 Jan 2018 13:35 #75 by Alpharalpha

Thanks for your quick reply. What I meant about rolling off the edge is if I had a 3" 24 ild and another 3" 19 ild with the twin xl being so narrow I wondered if those soft layers would tend to roll on the edges?

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11 Jan 2018 13:52 #76 by MattressToGo

alpharalpha,

Softer layers will allow you to sink in more with the latex than firmer layers in the upper part of the mattress, but you'd have a firm support base piece and being "inboard" of the edge with such a proposed configuration you can still sleep close to the edge without issue. This is similar to the PLB Beautiful and you can sleep close to the edge of this (a few inches "inboard") and be just fine (I have this at home and it's not an issue for me).

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator
Beducation / Mattress To Go


Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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21 Jan 2018 09:22 #77 by Alpharalpha

Just when I was ready to order, this edge support comes up. It really is a concern with such a narrow bed. I see Leggett & Platt pocket coils in the 8" combi-zone and the 6" caliber edge. Do either of these offer a significant edge support compared to an all latex mattress; and if so does the combi-zone have more of an edge support than the caliber edge, or about the same?

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22 Jan 2018 16:10 #78 by MattressToGo

The Combi-Zone doesn't have a built in edge reinforcement stem unless it is part of a foam encased (FE) unit or one that is specially made with the Quantum Edge wrapped around the perimeter. The Caliber Edge uses thicker steel springs along the perimeter and this is noticeable when sleeping upon the side of the mattress. The edge will not feel as hard sitting upon it as a foam encased unit. Latex doesn't have a firm edge, but because of its point elasticity you can usually sleep reasonably close to edge without roll-off, but this is dependent upon the firmness of the foam layers used.

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator
Beducation / Mattress To Go


Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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22 Jan 2018 17:49 #79 by Alpharalpha

The Combi-Zone Unit I was referring to does have the Quantum ® Edge Steel Perimeter. Between the combi-zone and the caliber edge do you know which would have the greater edge support? The price between the 2 is only $70 so that's not an issue and I'm being told that the combi-zone is a much superior system. I kinda like the non-zoned setup just because there's less chance that it might not line up or that I wouldn't like the feel as it's untested, but if the edge support is better with the quantum edge coils (also the combi-zone is 8" coils while the caliber is 6") My main concern here would be the edge support. The description for the combi-zone is: Quantum ® Edge Steel Perimeter features revolutionary, narrow- diameter Quantum coils that form a perimeter around the mattress, providing comfortable support all the way to the edge of the bed. • Exclusive Fine Wire Technology ™ by Leggett & Platt creates a low-diameter wire that achieves an unprecedented level of comfort and support. • More working wire flexes, responds, and supports all body types, weights, and shapes. There are actually 3 wire gauges in the QE Combi-Zone®. 16g narrow diameter perimeter coils. 17g narrow diameter coils through center 1/3 and 14g larger diameter coils on both sides of center 1/3. • The steel perimeter offered by Quantum Edge provides better support than foam, reducing the feeling of roll-off at the edge of the bed.
Are these spring edges really comparable to foam ones? They certainly are hyping them up sleep-geek.com/Video/Video?videoId=2979 They are correct in that video, edge support is important to me too, I just had not thought about it until now. I like a firm edge. I wish I could find a video of someone actually sitting on the edge of one of these spring units as they're aren't any around here for me to test out.

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23 Jan 2018 07:53 #80 by MattressToGo

A typical double row Quantum Edge would generally feel a little firmer than the typical single row Caliber Edge. I've sampled both in finished mattresses side-by-side.

As I mentioned in my previous reply, these edges don't feel as hard as a foam encasement when sitting along the edge. They do a good job of minimizing roll-off, which is the main job of an edge reinforcement system.

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator
Beducation / Mattress To Go


Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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