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normal Analysis Paralysis - Which Mattress? Sleep On Latex? Casper? Helix? None?

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15 May 2017 08:24 - 15 May 2017 11:25 #1 by iankh

I'm trying to replace a 22-year-old Simmons BackCare mattress. For the past year, I've started to have lower back pain, and it suddenly dawned on me that it might have something to do with my old mattress.

I am a 62-year-old side sleeper and weigh 191 pounds and sleep hot, waking up several times a night with the pillow soaked and needing to be flipped over. My partner is 65, weighs 150 and can quite comfortably fall asleep anywhere, including the floor.

I have mainly, though not exclusively, been using Consumer Reports as a reference guide in narrowing my choices. My choices are (in no particular order): Casper, Sleep on Latex and Helix. All of these on online brands, though I did have the opportunity to try out a Casper at a local West Elm store.

The Casper wasn't bad. A bit firm, but after about 10 minutes laying on my side, it seemed to mold well.

I've also gone into a few local mattress stores/outlets and have, with the help of a salesperson, tried some beds that seemed OK. One was a store brand, Banner, which I was told they manufacture themselves in their factory. Most were higher priced than I expected, though my frame of price reference is 22 years old. Our Simmons set back then cost about $2,000.

I am at the point of not knowing what to do and locked in analysis paralysis!

  • Casper - Tried it and it seemed fine. Second-ranking foam mattress on Consumer Reports. High reviews by consumers, though I believe that is all way too subjective to use a guide but provides a good pointer.
  • Sleep on Latex - A choice of firmness levels and the highest rated foam mattress on Consumer Reports. Can find nearly no consumer reviews.
  • Helix - Not rated by Consumer Reports. A plus is the customization option. Have also seen some strong consumer reviews.
  • Buy from a mattress store - Can't find any of the inner spring models rated on Consumer Reports. Seems to make things even more confusing. Plus compared to the online prices seem a bit high to me.

The only beds I have been able to "try" have been the Casper and the local mattress stores. Though they have the benefits of not being "blind,"I don't place a whole lot of stock in either, since what can 10 minutes of being flopped on a bed on my side tells me. The one benefit is that I could rule out a mattress as really being not suitable at all.

I also have the challenge of a foundation. Our bed is a very traditional bed, with a headboard and footboard and side rails. The side rails lock into the head and foot boards and hold the bed together. The side rails have a lower lip on which about five of six wide slats sit. The current box spring sits on the slats. There is no center leg. This bed comes from the days when the box spring was an integral component of the bed and provided both support and extra springs for the bed. The infrastructure of the box spring is not coils but a veritable spider web of interlocking an woven heavy wires (this was a then modern update to coils). I know I will need a new foundation as well.

So there I am with my dilemma. I don't know which way to go and am getting tired of analysis paralysis. I'm not expecting anyone to choose a mattress for me, but any help in digging my way out of this pit of over-analysis and bloody indecision would be most appreciated!

Summing it up:
  • Mattress
  • Foundation to place on the lower lip of the side rails/

Last Edit: 15 May 2017 11:25 by iankh. Reason: Corrected formatting

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15 May 2017 13:34 #2 by Phoenix

Hi iankh,

Welcome to the forum! :)

I’ll do my best to address some of your questions here. I’m glad that you’re not expecting anyone here to “choose” a mattress for you, as that’s not something that’s possible via an online forum because of the wide array of personal preferences and individual characteristics involved. Instead, the focus of the site is more on the “how” to choose. I’ll do my best to help in that manner.

First things first. If you haven’t already, please read the mattress shopping tutorial here , as it will provide (in as much detail as you desire) all of the steps necessary to make an educated mattress choice, as well as some of the common pitfalls to avoid.

About those pitfalls…

I have mainly, though not exclusively, been using Consumer Reports as a reference guide in narrowing my choices.


You may have already seen my comments about the Consumer Reports mattress ratings and recommendations in post #2 here and in this topic . While they may be a good source of information about more "objective" purchases, I would consider them to be an unreliable source of information or guidance about purchasing a mattress and their "ratings" are somewhat nonsensical and meaningless. My thoughts are also shared by most of the more knowledgeable people in the industry (see post #5 here for an example). I would avoid using them as a guide for making a mattress purchase.

I’m not going to go through the list of mattresses you mentioned, as much of what you mentioned is based upon ratings or Consumer Reports, which are both poor ways to select a mattress that is appropriate for your personal needs, although Sleep On Latex is a site member here, which does think that I think highly of their products and advice.

You seem to be in the Los Angeles area, and I think that you would be well served by visiting a local retailer and testing our some quality mattresses in person The good news is that you have quite a few good options in your area. Subject to first confirming that any retailer or manufacturer on the list that you wish to visit is completely transparent (see this article ) and to making sure that any mattress you are considering meets the quality/value guidelines here ... the better options or possibilities I'm aware of in and around Los Angeles are listed here .

While nothing has a 100% success rate, with a local purchase for the majority of people, careful testing using the guidelines in the tutorial rather than just testing for the more subjective "comfort" of a mattress (which often won't predict how well you will sleep on a mattress or how it will "feel" when you sleep on it at home) and some good guidance from a knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer will usually result in a mattress choice that is well inside a suitable comfort/support range and will generally be "close enough" so that if any fine tuning is necessary it would be relatively minor and involve different mattress pads, sheets, mattress protectors, or perhaps even a topper if a mattress is too firm (see post #4 here and post #10 here ).

One of the advantages of trying mattresses locally is that you can try many different types and styles and combinations of materials and components and firmness levels and compare them to each other in "real time" based on your actual experience rather than just "theory" instead of trying one online mattress at a time and not knowing how it compares to the other mattresses that you could have tried or purchased instead.

Some good local testing will also give you a much better sense of the many different types of materials and components that are used in mattresses and some reference points about the types of mattresses (see this article ) and general firmness levels you tend to prefer which can help you narrow down your choices regardless of whether you end up purchasing locally or online. All of this will be more helpful and reliable than any “review” or ranking.

I also have the challenge of a foundation. Our bed is a very traditional bed, with a headboard and footboard and side rails. The side rails lock into the head and foot boards and hold the bed together. The side rails have a lower lip on which about five of six wide slats sit. The current box spring sits on the slats. There is no center leg


You will need to reinforce your slat network, by adding legs down to the floor or reinforcing these slats as T-slats . Even your 22-year-old sleet set should have had this level of support. You can also remove the slats and add an aftermarket metal slat system like this if you desire.

This bed comes from the days when the box spring was an integral component of the bed and provided both support and extra springs for the bed. The infrastructure of the box spring is not coils but a veritable spider web of interlocking an woven heavy wires (this was a then modern update to coils). I know I will need a new foundation as well.


Back then you would have most likely had the Simmons 4-fold torsion modular system that flexed a bit under your mattress. Today, most manufacturers are using versions of rigid foundations (discussed in the foundation thread here in more detail). If you end up purchasing something locally, finding the appropriate foundation shouldn’t be an issue. If you purchase a mattress alone, either locally or online, there are a myriad of online sources for appropriate foundations in the aforementioned foundation thread.

Overall, I would take a bit of time and read through the mattress shopping tutorial, and then find a few knowledgeable local retailers who can help guide you through the process of selecting a product that best suits your needs.

Phoenix


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16 May 2017 07:37 #3 by iankh

Thank you for your feedback and the reading you suggested.

Consumer Reports always had been a reference point for narrowing down selections and were probably the first source that several friends cited when I said I was going mattress shopping. However, the further reading you suggested makes perfect sense for regarding their imperfect methods in this case.

I am in the Palm Springs Area, so most of the stores/outlets are over 100 miles away, with Banner being the only exception. I will have to revisit Banner to test the mattresses again, as I would have never bought anything the first time around anyway. My only other choices are Macy’s, Mattress Firm aka Sleep Train, Mattress Factory or a couple of local furniture stores.

Of the mattresses I listed that are online sources, my leading favorite is Sleep On Latex. I like the materials Sleep On Latex uses. , I have called them a couple of times though haven’t probed much. My questions were mainly focused on their recommended firmness for side sleeper (they suggested soft) and what foundation is needed.

Unlike other online sources who said I could use my existing box spring, Sleep On Latex was adamant that their mattress should be on a solid foundation or slatted, no more than 3 inches apart. On this, I appreciated their candidness and honesty. The only downside is that I can’t try it first.

Also thanks for pointing me towards foundations and third party support structures. I am leaning towards US Box Spring, and I appreciate the lead to the metal t-slats. The one non-negotiable piece of the whole thing is our bed frame. We’re not giving up our handmade maple frame, and I was getting tired of salespeople on and off-line reacting like I had some relic of the past in our bedroom that came from a time before bedframes had been invented. I’m only surprised that none of the sales or customer service people had suggested such simple add-on before. The metal structure to fit into the existing frame is something I’m going to get immediately because I know that regardless of the final mattress choice.

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16 May 2017 11:27 #4 by Phoenix

Hi iankh,

I am in the Palm Springs Area


The better options I'm aware of in the Palm Springs area are listed in post #3 here . This thread may also be helpful.

Of the mattresses I listed that are online sources, my leading favorite is Sleep On Latex.


I do think highly of Sleep on Latex and the advice they offer, and as I mentioned they are one of the site members listed in post #21 here who are all very experienced and knowledgeable and specialize in providing the type of help and guidance on the phone that can help you make good choices, and if you are interested there are a few other option that offer latex there and I believe that all of them compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, and transparency.

Also thanks for pointing me towards foundations and third party support structures. I am leaning towards US Box Spring, and I appreciate the lead to the metal t-slats. The one non-negotiable piece of the whole thing is our bed frame. We’re not giving up our handmade maple frame, and I was getting tired of salespeople on and off-line reacting like I had some relic of the past in our bedroom that came from a time before bedframes had been invented.


There would be no reason to give up your nice bed set. You choice to reinforce it immediately is wise and the US Box Spring, should you choose to purchase it, would work well for any mattress choice – latex or otherwise.

Phoenix


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18 May 2017 07:00 - 18 May 2017 07:03 #5 by iankh

I decided to break this "problem" down into 3 separate areas to be addressed:

    <li>Slats</li>
    <li>Foundation</li>
    <li>Mattress</li>

Phoenix, I called the company listed in the link you provided to aftermarket metal slats and they were extremely helpful and pointed me to their consumer site bedframes.com. I immediately placed and order for the metal slats to augment my existing maple slats since this is something I should do regardless of the foundation or mattress.

The decision on a foundation will be based on where I buy my mattress from and whether or not it's a set. If it is not a set, I have selected the foundation from U.S. Box Spring.

Also thanks for the mattress stores in my area (Palm Springs). I plan to visit a few this weekend and plan to look again, now that I know what questions to ask.

I just want to add that one of the stores in the list you pointed me to seems to have changed the mattresses they carry. I phoned them yesterday and it appears that many of the manufacturers they now carry on on an "avoid" list I found on this site. I will stop in to double check anyway.

I've also read several articles on this site and watched several videos on Mattress To Go which I found extremely helpful and helped the information sink in (I think I'm at an age where having the information presented by puppets would probably be the best medium, but unfortunately I've found no videos that do that).

I've also expanded my list of online mattresses to consider, including Brooklyn Bedding, DreamFoam, Nest and Spindle. I liked what I read on Spindle's site but don't fancy the idea of assembling a mattress myself.

I've had a couple of conversations with Sleep On Latex and they have been very helpful and forthcoming with information and is a frontrunner. My only hesitancy is buying blind without being able to lay down on it first, or, even find any latex mattress in my area to try out to see if I like the feel. The salespeople I've asked locally about latex, at least on the phone, react like I come from another planet. "Nobody asks for latex," is the sort of answer I am hearing.

That so far is my mattress shopping saga. I miss the days of walking into Sears, buying a mattress and then not thinking about it again for 20 years. Perhaps I just got lucky with my Simmons.

So, in this saga, the first step, slats

Last Edit: 18 May 2017 07:03 by iankh.

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18 May 2017 11:10 #6 by Phoenix

Hi iankh,

called the company listed in the link you provided to aftermarket metal slats and they were extremely helpful and pointed me to their consumer site bedframes.com. I immediately placed and order for the metal slats to augment my existing maple slats since this is something I should do regardless of the foundation or mattress.


I don’t know that these will work properly in combination with your current wooden slats. If you slats rest upon the small wooden lip that runs on the inside of your side rails, they would be about .75” higher than this side rail wooden lip. The metal slat network you ordered is notched out on the end of the angle iron that rests upon the lip on the inside of your side rails, and this would be almost flush with the lip upon which the rail would be resting. If you used the slats in combination with these metal supports, your foundation will not come in contact with the metal supports as it will first hit the level of the thicker wood slats. You would use the metal support in the place of the wood slats, but not together.

The decision on a foundation will be based on where I buy my mattress from and whether or not it's a set. If it is not a set, I have selected the foundation from U.S. Box Spring.


That sounds like a good game plan.

I just want to add that one of the stores in the list you pointed me to seems to have changed the mattresses they carry. I phoned them yesterday and it appears that many of the manufacturers they now carry on on an "avoid" list I found on this site. I will stop in to double check anyway.


I double checked yesterday and updated the list again today, and all of the vendors listed, as least on their web sites, are offering alternatives to the “largest brands” that may be worth considering. Many of these stores may also offer some of those larger name-brands, which I generally suggest to avoid. If you find something that deviates from the company’s web site or what I have listed, please feel free to post back what you find.

I've also read several articles on this site and watched several videos on Mattress To Go which I found extremely helpful and helped the information sink in (I think I'm at an age where having the information presented by puppets would probably be the best medium, but unfortunately I've found no videos that do that).


I think highly of Jeff and his Beducation videos. While he doesn’t have any videos using puppets, I’m sure he’d do his best to help you out in that area if you desired. :lol:

I've also expanded my list of online mattresses to consider, including Brooklyn Bedding, DreamFoam, Nest and Spindle. I liked what I read on Spindle's site but don't fancy the idea of assembling a mattress myself.


All of the brands you mentioned are members here of the site, which means that I think highly of them I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry . Many brands, like Spindle offer component system where the layers need to be placed within a zippered mattress encasement. This does offer more flexibility in mattress fine-tuning. Assembling a mattress like this isn’t too difficult, but I understand if that’s something you’d wish to avoid.

I've had a couple of conversations with Sleep On Latex and they have been very helpful and forthcoming with information and is a frontrunner. My only hesitancy is buying blind without being able to lay down on it first, or, even find any latex mattress in my area to try out to see if I like the feel. The salespeople I've asked locally about latex, at least on the phone, react like I come from another planet. "Nobody asks for latex," is the sort of answer I am hearing.


Sleep on Latex is also a member here of the site, and I’m glad they’ve been helpful to you. If ordering online, you’ll always want to make sure you’re completely aware of any potential return/exchange policies, should your purchase not turn out as well as you had hoped. It is true that many stores are unfamiliar with latex, but from the list I provided you should have a few options to visit and test out a latex mattress in person.

Phoenix


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19 May 2017 09:56 #7 by iankh

I've worked through the list of latex mattresses available online and have created my shortlist, partly driven by price. I've had very good phone experience with several of them and will call a few additional ones today.

My shortlist is (in no particular order):

  • Luma - hybrid
  • Sleep Organic, 13" or 15"
  • DreamFoam, Ultimate Dreams Total Latex
  • Sleep on Latex, 9" (by far the least expensive choice

I've wondered if I should add Kiss to my list?

Tomorrow, I'm visiting 2 local stores, Mattress Showroom and Mattress Xpress.

I'm interested in seeing the Diamond Mattresses at Mattress Showroom, and the MBC products at Mattress Xpress. I could find no information about MBC, other than they are an extremely local wholesale manufacturer who until recently served only a few counties in Southern California and have recently expanded to some counties in northern California.

I wrote to them about 2 of the models I saw online that piqued my interest and they were forthcoming with information:

You are right about there being many high quality regional manufacturers. The main difference between us and the “big brand names” is that they have to spend millions on advertising, while our expenses are limited to local sales reps. We all buy the same materials from the same vendors, and there are no big secrets about what it takes to make a quality mattress.



Both the Casablanca and the Eros are outstanding beds. The main difference between them is in the pillow top. The Casablanca has a “pocket coil” unit inside of the pillow top, while the Eros has a 4” piece of high density convoluted foam. They are both very high quality, but just give a different type of feel. The Casablanca would probably be a little “bouncier” and slightly “firmer”, while the Eros will have more of a “hugging” type feel. My personal preference is the Eros.

I wouldn’t get too concerned with the detailed specs of the beds. These things just tend to confuse and distract from the most important things to consider when buying a mattress.

- Is the mattress comfortable?

- Is the manufacturer a trusted and reputable company?

- Is the price fair enough for my budget?

Both of these beds are extremely comfortable, but you should check them out in the store first if possible.

We are a local manufacturer who has been in business since 1980. We attribute our success and longevity to quality and service.

If you’re still concerned about the specs, here’s what these beds use.
- Talalay latex (medium firm 19 ild)

- Polyurethane foam toppers are 1.5 lb (If someone says they are using more, they are probably lying to you)

- The gauge of the coils in the base are 13 ga, and in the pocket coils are 15 ga. Again, it’s not just the gauge that’s important. It’s also the number of coils and the quality of the manufacturer. We’ve been at this for over 35 years. We prefer to make a quality product rather than mess around with cheaper units which will just cause problems down the road.

- The foam encasement is a 1.5 lb foam, but it’s the ild, combined with that density, which gives it it’s perfect edge firmness, while standing the test of time.

Hope this helps. Your local retailer should be able to answer any more questions.

Thank you for considering our product! Like I said above, I prefer the Eros. I usually change my mattress every year to test out new prototypes and such, but when I had the Eros, I kept it for over 5 years, so I know it well. We loved it!


I wrote to Diamond who have yet to reply to me.

Once I do my shopping tomorrow, I will zero in on the final candidate.

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19 May 2017 13:48 #8 by Phoenix

Hi iankh,

I've worked through the list of latex mattresses available online and have created my shortlist, partly driven by price. I've had very good phone experience with several of them and will call a few additional ones today.


I’m glad that you’re taking the time to speak directly with the manufacturers and vendors you’re considering. It’s the best way to get your questions answered and obtain complete information.

My shortlist is (in no particular order):
Luma – hybrid
Sleep Organic, 13" or 15"
DreamFoam, Ultimate Dreams Total Latex
Sleep on Latex, 9" (by far the least expensive choice


These would all be mattresses using good quality and durable materials – latex, and a pocketed spring unit for the Luma. And as you're aware, all of these companies are members here of the site, which means that I think highly of them.

I've wondered if I should add Kiss to my list?


The Kiss mattress would be a deviation from the list you’ve crated above as far as componentry, using 1.5” of latex in the upper layer, but then a total of 8.5” of polyfoam beneath that. It’s a very good quality product for the price point, but would have a feel that is different from the other products on your list.

Tomorrow, I'm visiting 2 local stores, Mattress Showroom and Mattress Xpress. I'm interested in seeing the Diamond Mattresses at Mattress Showroom, and the MBC products at Mattress Xpress. I could find no information about MBC, other than they are an extremely local wholesale manufacturer who until recently served only a few counties in Southern California and have recently expanded to some counties in northern California. I wrote to them about 2 of the models I saw online that piqued my interest and they were forthcoming with information:


I’m glad you’ll be able to visit a few local stores and do some personal testing. It’s nice that the people at MBC were able to respond to some of your questions. They do raise some good points about taking the time to try out a mattress in person, but there are a few other things in their comments I’d like to comment upon:

The main difference between us and the “big brand names” is that they have to spend millions on advertising, while our expenses are limited to local sales reps. We all buy the same materials from the same vendors, and there are no big secrets about what it takes to make a quality mattress.


I’m hoping that there is more of a difference in their mattresses than simply advertising as compared to some of the larger brands. While many brands purchase their foams from the same foam pourers, there are large variations in the density and quality of those foams.

My personal preference is the Eros.


I wouldn’t use the personal preference of anyone as a reliable guidance of what might be best for you, no matter how well-meaning the advice, as there are far too many personal considerations involved to relate one person’s preference as an indicator of accurate applicability to another person.

I wouldn’t get too concerned with the detailed specs of the beds. These things just tend to confuse and distract from the most important things to consider when buying a mattress.


While focusing solely upon specifications and attempting to predict “on paper” how a mattress will feel in person isn’t something I recommend, finding out the information listed here about any mattress you’re considering is imperative and part of what you’ll need to know in order to make an educated buying decision, and then you’ll want to compare that information to the durability guidelines here and here .

If you’re still concerned about the specs, here’s what these beds use.
Talalay latex (medium firm 19 ild)
Polyurethane foam toppers are 1.5 lb (If someone says they are using more, they are probably lying to you)


You’ll want to know all of the layers within a mattress and their thicknesses, and make sure that it adds up to the total height of the mattress. The Talalay latex (find out if it is natural, blended or synthetic for ability to cross-compare) would be a durable material, but 19 ILD would be considered quite plush, not medium firm (of course, you’ll be able to tell when you try out the product in person). 1.5 lb in the upper polyfoam layers would be the minimum I would recommend, with 1.8 lb being better. Of course, it all depends upon the combination of materials used within the mattress, the thickness of the different layers, and where those layers are located.

The gauge of the coils in the base are 13 ga, and in the pocket coils are 15 ga. Again, it’s not just the gauge that’s important. It’s also the number of coils and the quality of the manufacturer.


The innersprings aren’t usually the weak link within a mattress. There’s a brief “primer” about innersprings here .

The foam encasement is a 1.5 lb foam, but it’s the ild, combined with that density, which gives it it’s perfect edge firmness, while standing the test of time.


This is a common density in a higher ILD (firmness) for an edge foam encasement and would generally be quite durable.

It sounds as if you may have some nice options with the HBC, provided you can acquire all of the details about their products, and of course if you find a comfort that works with your personal preferences. Have fun!

Phoenix


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22 May 2017 15:24 #9 by iankh

Yet more mattress shopping this past weekend. I went to the local retailer and tried the MBC mattress I was interested in it. It felt good, but I was uncomfortable with the retailer and a recent review on Yelp, besides I had more mattresses to try. I went back to the Mattress Showroom and narrowed down my choices to a couple of Diamond mattresses. On to visit Sit 'N Sleep because when I phoned I was told they had latex mattresses. They didn't. I did find an Aireloom Aspire Arcadia that felt extremely comfortable as did a Kingsdown 500 VZ, but reading later about both manufacturers, I was scared off by reports of premature breakdown. I finally visited Mathis Brothers and found what I thought was the perfect mattress, their own brand, Ecocomfort, the Ranier or Teton models. The salesman was excellent but could not tell me what was inside the mattress other than foam. I asked him to find out. I also wrote to the company. As of this afternoon, he did not have the information. It shouldn't be so bloody hard to find out what's inside a mattress. Nor did I think either was particularly inexpensive, both at or near $2K or a bit over.

So, today I called Flexus, a local company ( www.flexuscomfort.com ). Ironically, even though they are "local" they are about 100 miles away. After a fair bit of discussion about weight, height, and preference I ordered a 13" mattress and 5" foundation. I felt the price was very fair and I think good value vs. a similarly priced mattress comprised of mystery foam. Also, a big plus is that they will deliver it and set it up. I have spoken to both Henry and James today and both were great. I'm very happy to get what I want and also to be able to shop local.

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22 May 2017 15:55 #10 by Phoenix

Hi iankh,

So, today I called Flexus, a local company ( www.flexuscomfort.com ). Ironically, even though they are "local" they are about 100 miles away. After a fair bit of discussion about weight, height, and preference I ordered a 13" mattress and 5" foundation. I felt the price was very fair and I think good value vs. a similarly priced mattress comprised of mystery foam. Also, a big plus is that they will deliver it and set it up. I have spoken to both Henry and James today and both were great. I'm very happy to get what I want and also to be able to shop local.


Congratulations on your new mattress purchase! :cheer: As you’re aware, Flexus is a member here of the site, which means that I think highly of them. I’m looking forward to hearing about your new mattress once you’ve had a chance to sleep upon it for a while. And I’m glad you were able to find something “local” (at least for your area). ;)

Phoenix


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