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06 Sep 2017 07:09 #11 by whitesox20

I will also state that Dreamfoams customer service was excellent.

Looking heavily at T&N now. Given that they use to be a member, you think highly of their Company right?

Is that high performance polyfoam going to offer adequate support and pressure relief for most people in your opinion? I'm someone who has back issues.

The only things detering me from T&N right now is the stigma around the possible fictious Amazon reviews and the fact that this mattress was engineered by 2 computer software engineers. Doesn't seem like they would have the expertise to design a mattress and know what's best for ones health. Would you have any insight on either of these things? Either one doesn't mean it's not an excellent mattress I suppose as well.

I've done a ridiculous amount of research to try to stay in the 500-650 range but I'm almost thinking I just need to spend more around 1000 and get something like an amerialeep.

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06 Sep 2017 13:14 #12 by Phoenix

Hi whitesox20,

I will also state that Dreamfoams customer service was excellent.


I’m glad to hear that. I think highly of the service they offer.

Looking heavily at T&N now. Given that they use to be a member, you think highly of their Company right? Is that high performance polyfoam going to offer adequate support and pressure relief for most people in your opinion? I'm someone who has back issues.


I haven't spoken with Daehee and JT in some time, but regardless my commentary would still be directed to the componentry within the mattresses, which you can find in the simplified choice thread here . The T&N uses 3” of 2.8 lb high performance polyfoam over a 7” 1.8 lb polyfoam core.

I can’t predict via an online forum if a product will accommodate your comfort preferences, especially someone with a pre-existing low back problem, as there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in choosing a mattress for someone else to make specific suggestions based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance that can possible be more accurate than your own careful and objective testing. In general, the material used in this mattress would be adequate in density for someone in your BMI range.

The only things detering me from T&N right now is the stigma around the possible fictious Amazon reviews and the fact that this mattress was engineered by 2 computer software engineers. Doesn't seem like they would have the expertise to design a mattress and know what's best for ones health. Would you have any insight on either of these things? Either one doesn't mean it's not an excellent mattress I suppose as well.


Again, as I discussed in my reply to you after your first post here, I don’t suggest placing stock in reviews, pro or con. I suggest you focus instead upon componentry. The genesis of T&N is well documented all over the internet, including on their own web site. Some of the boxed bed companies are designed by what I would term “mattress people”, and other companies are founded by people outside of the industry who contract with people familiar with mattresses to design their products for them. In the end, you need to evaluate the specifications of the product itself.

I've done a ridiculous amount of research to try to stay in the 500-650 range but I'm almost thinking I just need to spend more around 1000 and get something like an amerialeep.


You can read more about Amerisleep and their sister companies and their so called "expert sites" that pose as being independent review sites in post #2 here and the posts it links to. A forum search on Amerisleep (you can just click the link) will bring up will bring up all the forum posts that mention them as well.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read this post first.

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07 Sep 2017 07:15 #13 by whitesox20

Glad I researched Amerisleep. Thank you!

I ordered a Tuft and Needle and won't be canceling this one haha. Partially just ordered because I've put so much energy into researching and it's time to stop. Quality of materials seems pretty good with a 2.8 proprietary polyfoam and a 1.8 core. For $575, I'm hoping it's a good deal, and I read good things about their CS . My apologies for not going with a site member.

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07 Sep 2017 12:26 - 07 Sep 2017 12:27 #14 by Phoenix

Hi whitesox20,

I ordered a Tuft and Needle


Congratulations on your new mattress purchase! :cheer: I'll be interested in learning about it once you've had a chance to sleep upon it for a while.

My apologies for not going with a site member.


There's no need or expectation that you'd purchase only from members here of this site. I'd say over 75% of purchases from research done on this site are for businesses or manufacturers who are not site members. The information here can easily be applied toward any product you're considering, with the hope that you're making an educated choice that best suits your particular needs. The guidelines and suggestions on the site are "self evident" and would apply to any manufacturer or retailer regardless of whether they are a member here or not, and I don't make any specific recommendations for mattresses, materials, or manufacturers. The members here are certainly not the only sources of good quality/value mattresses across the country or online. Membership here simply recognizes quality and value that already exists, but purchasing form the business site members here isn't an expectation when becoming a consumer member here of the site. But I appreciate the sentiment!

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read this post first.
Last Edit: 07 Sep 2017 12:27 by Phoenix.

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07 Oct 2017 20:21 #15 by whitesox20

I've been on the T&N for about a month now and it may just not be for me. When I first got it, I was amazed. However, after about a month on it I'm thinking about cashing in on the sleep trial. I wake up with a less sore back now but not exactly what I was expecting. Also it is a little bit weird because the foams didn't break in evenly so the foam on one side is a bit more broken in than the other, which creates somewhat of a sloping feel.

Right now I'm thinking of either trying out the Brooklyn or Addable. I was also interested in the tomorrow sleep mattress because having a pocketed coil system intrigues me some. I had a few questions about some mattresses, mostly curious to your personal opinion of them.

Brooklyn BME- I already am aware you think highly of this mattress. Because this mattress is essentially a high performance polyfoam like T&N would they have similar pressure relief and feel? Or would it be completely different.

Addable- curious on your opinion of this mattress? Is the 4 LB memory foam and 1.8 poly foam top layers going to be durable enough to handle 2 roughly 160 pound sleepers? Bases off the durability guidelines, it seems so.

Tomorrow Sleep - Seems the soft version of this mattress uses good quality materials but not the firm which is odd. This brand intrigues me because I know if I ever needed the warranty Serta will for sure be around.

Bear mattress - personal thoughts on the bear?

Are there any mattresses I could be overlooking in the 600-800 price point?

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08 Oct 2017 13:50 #16 by Phoenix

Hi whitesox20,

I've been on the T&N for about a month now and it may just not be for me.


I’m sorry that your Tuft and Needle mattress isn’t working out for you. :(

I had a few questions about some mattresses, mostly curious to your personal opinion of them.


Just for clarity, I don’t provide personal opinions on mattresses, but provide information about componentry and let you make up your own mind on what might work best for your own situation. I help with “how” to choose , not “what”, which is one of the reasons this site is not (and never will be) a review site.

Brooklyn BME- I already am aware you think highly of this mattress. Because this mattress is essentially a high performance polyfoam like T&N would they have similar pressure relief and feel? Or would it be completely different.


The BME uses higher density TitanFlex polyfoam than what Tuft and Needle uses in their mattress (4 lb versus 2.8 lb), and 4” versus 3”. The BME also uses a higher ILD polyfoam core. The BME also is available in three different comfort designations (soft, medium and hard). The TitanFlex will have a more resilient feel than the HP polyfoam used in the Tuft and Needle. You’d want to phone Brooklyn Bedding for their recommendation as to what comfort designation that they would recommend for you, based upon your sleeping preference and somatotype and BMI, and also your reaction to your Tuft and Needle mattress.

Addable- curious on your opinion of this mattress? Is the 4 LB memory foam and 1.8 poly foam top layers going to be durable enough to handle 2 roughly 160 pound sleepers? Bases off the durability guidelines, it seems so.


The Addable mattress uses good quality materials, and it uses memory foam in the upper layer, so would have a bit more of a “dead” feel than the TN or the BME. It does represent a very good value for the materials used, and there would be no “red flags” for the componentry used for 160 lb sleepers.

You may find complete specifications and a synopsis about both the BME and the Addable in the simplified choice thread here . And as you are already aware, Brooklyn Bedding and Addable are site members here, which means that I think highly of them.

Tomorrow Sleep - Seems the soft version of this mattress uses good quality materials but not the firm which is odd.


You can read more about the Tomorrow Sleep mattress in post #2 here .

This brand intrigues me because I know if I ever needed the warranty Serta will for sure be around.


Warranties in general are not nearly as important to me as knowing the materials because the reason most people need to replace a mattress is not a manufacturing defect but the loss of comfort and/or support which is not covered by a warranty. Knowing the materials in a mattress will tell you how long the original qualities of a mattress will last relative to other types of materials, and choosing a mattress based upon the warranty is one of the least important things I recommend to consider. Additionally, there's no way of predicting whether or not Serta “will be around” in the future. All you need to do is look at the bankruptcies in the past decade of both Spring Air and Simmons. The size and length of time in business of any mattress company isn’t an indicator of the business being a healthy concern moving forward. But again, the warranty to me is of very little importance as compared to the quality of materials being used.

Bear mattress - personal thoughts on the bear?


You can also find specifications of this mattress in the simplified choice thread here . There would be no “red flags” for the componentry used for your weight range.

Are there any mattresses I could be overlooking in the 600-800 price point?


There are over 500 mattress brands currently operating in the United States, and over 170 boxed-bed mattress offerings, so with thousands upon thousands of different mattresses being offered, it’s simply not possible for me to maintain a listing of every item available in particular price ranges in an ever-changing market. It would be much too large of a task for any one individual or group to maintain.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read this post first.

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11 Oct 2017 07:48 #17 by whitesox20

I saw Casper came out with their new line, the essential mattress. The specs are as followed for a 8.5 inch mattress.

2.5 inches of breathable responsive top foam (guessing high performance polyfoam). Can't remember the density of this but it was 2pcf+ for sure.

1.5 inches of responsive memory foam, 3pcf density.

4.5 inches of 1.8 poly foam core.

At $600 it was worth getting the details for, but that 3lb memory foam is going to steer me away. One thing I was curious about was can some memory foams still be a good quality material and durable even if the density is lower? Or is it a very general rule that if it is low density, it's lower quality?

I'm thinking I'm going to try out the addable mattress first. I was having trouble deciding between that and Brooklyn, but I think I'm going to go for the lower price.

If this doesn't workout, I may look into hybrid mattresses. I think the coils would provide some extra support.

I'm starting to think it's normal to wake up with a stiff back :( haha.

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11 Oct 2017 13:24 #18 by Phoenix

Hi whitesox20,

Thanks for the information on the Casper Essential. I tried to confirm the specifications with Casper, but they were not forthcoming as of now. Did they provide those specs to you?

One thing I was curious about was can some memory foams still be a good quality material and durable even if the density is lower? Or is it a very general rule that if it is low density, it's lower quality?


While this may be a longer answer than you are looking for (and I know some of this doesn't apply directly to what you are looking at)…

With polyurethane and memory foam ... the single biggest factor in durability is an "apples to apples" comparison of density (actually this would be "unfilled" or polymer density which doesn't include the weight of any added fillers which can add to the apparent density of the material but lower the durability). In other words a 2.6 lb polyfoam will be more durable than a 1.8 lb polyfoam all other factors being equal. With memory foam all densities are higher because of the added chemicals that give it varying degrees of viscosity but the same rule holds true when comparing memory foam to memory foam and 5 lb memory foam would be more durable than 4 lb memory foam. I would consider a 3 lb density memory foam to be a lower quality material.

As a general rule I would use 1.5 lb density polyfoam as a minimum guideline for a two sided mattress, 1.8 lb density polyfoam as a minimum guideline for a one sided mattress, and 4 lb density as a minimum guideline for memory foam in a mattress. All latex would be a high quality material although natural latex is a more costly material than synthetic latex. There should be no more than "about an inch or so" of lower quality/density materials in the comfort and quilting layers combined (around an inch or less would not have a significant effect on the durability or longevity of the mattress). Once you are at about 2" or more of lower quality materials they are likely to be the weak link of the mattress.

Some of the other factors involved in durability are

Softness/Firmness: Softer foams are less durable than firmer foams because they are subject to more mechanical compression which stresses the foam more. So if everything else was equal ... a 1.8 lb polyfoam that was 15 ILD would be less durable than a 1.8 lb polyfoam with a 28 ILD rating.

Position: Upper layers of a mattress are also subject to more compression than the lower layers of a mattress so the "position" of the foam will also affect the durability of a foam. For example a 1.8 lb polyfoam used in the top layers will not be as durable as a 1.8 lb foam used in the deeper support layers of a mattress because it is subject to more frequent and deeper compression. It is almost always the upper layers of a mattress that are most prone to softening and breakdown which is why it's so important to make sure they include higher quality materials.

Layers above and below: The layers that are used above and below a particular foam will also affect the durability of a foam because they will modify the response of the foam. In other words a softer foam used above another layer will result in more compression of the layer below while a firmer foam used above another layer will reduce the compression of the foam below it. Firmer foams below a layer will lead to less "bending" into the lower layer while a softer foam below a layer will lead to more "bending" into the layer below it.

One or two sided: A two sided mattress can be flipped and the foam on one side can rest and recover and is only used half as much so will last much longer. It's important though to make sure that the comfort layers of a two sided mattress aren't too thick which can compromise the support of a mattress because of the thickness of the soft layers on the bottom. A good general guideline for a maximum thickness would be in the range of about 3" or less in the comfort layers. There is more about one sided vs two sided mattresses in post #3 here .

Replaceable layers: Some mattresses have individual layers and a zip cover where each layer can be removed and replaced. Some local manufacturers will also replace individual layers in a mattress. A mattress will usually soften and break down from the top down so both of these can be a benefit in terms of durability because a single layer that has softened (usually in the upper layers of a mattress) can be replaced without having to replace the entire mattress.

Formulation: While density is the single biggest factor in durability ... other chemicals or ingredients added to a foam can also affect durability. For example ... "filler materials" that are added to a foam (such as "sand" or other particles including "gel" particles) can lower durability of the base foam they are added to and chemicals such as plasticizers or the presence or absence of antioxidants will also affect the durability of a foam.

Thickness: Thicker layers of lower quality foams will have a bigger effect on the durability and longevity of a mattress if they soften than thinner layers that are mixed in with higher quality foam.

The person on the mattress: Heavier people or people with heavier "areas" or who are more "active" on a mattress will wear out materials faster than lighter, more evenly proportioned, or less active people so higher density foams than just the "minimum" guidelines can be more important.

Other factors: There are also other more "arcane" factors that can affect the durability of a foam such as the shape of the foam cells, the strength and elasticity of the crosslinks, the resilience of a foam, and the compression modulus (which affects the mechanical compression qualities of the foam) which will also affect durability.

In general terms though ... paying attention to the quality/density of the upper layers (which are the most prone to softening and breakdown), and the layering of the mattress (how thick are the lower quality foams and where are they in the mattress), will greatly improve your odds that you will end up with a more durable mattress. In other words, the "weakest link" of the mattress will determine the durability of the mattress as a whole.

It's also important to know that durability is relative to the person that sleeps on a mattress and no matter how durable the materials themselves may be ... in practical terms a mattress will only last as long as it maintains the support, pressure relief, and personal preferences that allows someone to sleep well on a mattress. Foam softening or other changes in mattress materials or components may have different effects on different people and a mattress that has softened or changed to the degree that it no longer provides the support, pressure relief. or personal preferences for one person may still be fine for someone else. It's usually not the final breakdown of materials that leads to the need to replace a mattress but the gradual loss of comfort and support that finally "crosses" a line and at some point is no longer suitable for that person to sleep on. Each person's "line" can be very different.

Some people are comfortable with the tradeoff of a lower price point for a shorter expected comfort life of a mattress, so as long as you are aware of that you can be comfortable with your mattress shopping decision.

I'm starting to think it's normal to wake up with a stiff back haha.


I hope not! Both Addable and Brooklyn Bedding are site members here, which means that I think highly of them, and the Addable is one of the better values for a lower priced mattress. I’ll be interested in what you eventually decide to do, or any other questions you might have.

Phoenix


Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read this post first.

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12 Oct 2017 06:57 #19 by whitesox20

Yes I did get the specs from them through the chat function on the website. At first they wouldn't give them, but after a little bit of pushing I was able to get the densities.

I'm really stuck between Addable, BME, and now the Ghostbed.

The Ghostbed I've heard is a little on the firm side, but uses slightly better materials then addable in my opinion. That latex layer vs the poly foam layer addable uses. Plus the latex is on top vs. 4lb memory foam on top for the addable. I think the Ghostbed would be a bit better in terms of durability.

If everything said a about TitanFlex is true, than this mattress would be better overall of the 3 in terms of durability.

I'm looking to get around 5 years out of my bed, so all 3 probably would fit in that range.

I guess my question is, in technical terms... is the materials used in the Ghostbed and BME worth the $200 price increase? Is there substantional quality benefits gained for that increase? Not really asking for your opinion on prices because I know that would be unfair, but from a technical facts standpoint of the materials used in each mattress.

Also... when did mattress shopping and research become kind of fun? Lmao.

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13 Oct 2017 00:42 #20 by Phoenix

Hi whitesox20.

I am glad you are having fun shopping and researching for your mattress. :)

Thank you for confirming the source of specs for the Essential.

I'm looking to get around 5 years out of my bed, so all 3 probably would fit in that range.


You are correct that all these mattresses will have a longer useful life than the 5 years criteria you are looking at. All the options you are considering are using durable good quality materials and there are no lower quality materials or weak links relative to more average weight ranges. What may help you differentiate between them is considering the feel that is most attractive to you in terms of preferences and needs. Addable with its 2” memory foam will have great pressure relieving qualities but have much less of the resilience and bounciness of either BME, or Ghost offer. BME will have a more buoyant feel and Ghostbed with the 1.5” latex layer will borrow a bit of the “dead” feel of the 2” Memory Foam below it.

The Ghostbed I've heard is a little on the firm side


In terms of comfort it may be worthwhile noting that out of the three options you are looking at, BME offers 3 different firmness choices (Soft, Medium, Firm) while the other two of your finalists have single firmness mattresses and it may be worthwhile calling and having a more detailed conversations with each of the manufacturer/retailer to determine if what they offer would be suitable for you in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment and your own Personal Preferences)

I guess my question is, in technical terms... is the materials used in the Ghostbed and BME worth the $200 price increase? Is there substantional quality benefits gained for that increase?


As for “worth”, while price is certainly important of course .. the "value" of a mattress purchase is what is most important and price is just one of many factors that can affect the "value" of a mattress purchase. There isn't a "formula" that can be used to assess or "calculate" the value of a mattress because there are so many different variables and criteria involved that can affect the price of a mattress that can each be more or less important to some people and not to others who may have completely different criteria or definitions of "value". I guess that a better question to ask is if based on you personal value equation the $200 difference in price is worth to you. Of course that part of the value of a mattress purchase is also relative to how a mattress compares to the other finalists you are considering, but there are many reasons that a mattress that may be "good value" for one person may not be good value for someone else that has very different needs and preferences.

There is more about the 3 most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

My role is to provide some accurate information and perspective to the process of deciding on "value" so that each person can find for themselves which of the many parts of a mattress purchase and different types of mattress materials, services, and outlets represents "great value" to them and help them make more meaningful comparisons rather than create a formula that determines value for others (which I don't believe is possible or even desirable).

Neither one of the options you are considering would be a "mistake" in terms of quality and durability but nobody else can feel what you feel on a mattress and only you can decide which of them you are most likely to prefer and which one you believe is the best value for YOU regardless of whether it may be the best value for someone else.

Phoenix


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