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normal Avocado mattress?

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09 Sep 2017 06:50 #1 by Annette

Just wondering if anyone has an Avocado 'green' mattress and how they like it. There are so many 'bed in a box' choices these days it's getting confusing. My husband really believes in innerspring because of side 'breakdown' issues and I'm trying to accommodate him while finding something durable and firm enough for me. Thanks!

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09 Sep 2017 11:44 #2 by Phoenix

Hi Annette,

Just wondering if anyone has an Avocado 'green' mattress and how they like it.


The Avocado Green Mattress has been mentioned a few times previously here on the forum, and it uses 2” of 75 kg/m3 (plush) Dunlop and 1” of 95 kg/M3 (firm) Dunlop (under the innerspring unit). The pillowtop version adds 2” of 85 kg/M3 (medium) Dunlop. It is 100% NR latex. It uses the Leggett and Platt Quantum Edge Combi-Zone innerspring unit. This mattress features good quality and durable materials, and there would be no “weak links” in its componentry. The cover is wool and organic cotton. The only ability to customize is to add the pillowtop option. It has a 100 night sleep trial.

Regarding someone else’s opinion on a mattress, there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved in choosing a mattress for someone else to make specific suggestions based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or theory at a distance that can possible be more accurate than your own careful and objective testing (using the testing guidelines in the tutorial post) which is always the most reliable way to predict which mattress will be the best match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences - see post #2 here ).

While often well-intentioned, reviews or other people's experiences in general won't tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or "value" of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here ).

Instead of reviews, the first place I recommend to start your research is the mattress shopping tutorial here which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice ... and perhaps more importantly know how and why to avoid the worst ones.

Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are post #2 here which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and post #13 here which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

Outside of PPP (which is the most important part of "value"), the next most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can't see or "feel" and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress depends on knowing the specifics of its construction and the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new so I would always make sure that you find out the information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

My husband really believes in innerspring because of side 'breakdown' issues and I'm trying to accommodate him while finding something durable and firm enough for me.


There’s more detailed information about edge reinforcement systems in foam mattresses in post #2 here . In general, most foam mattresses (including latex) don't have or even really need side support if they have a support core that is firm enough and the comfort layers aren't too thick and/or soft for the person sleeping on it.

Some people do prefer the very firm polyfoam edge encasement “tubs” that surround some spring units. A more recent version of innerspring edge reinforcement has been the replacement of these foam encasement tubs in pocketed spring units with rows of spring using thicker gauge steel. This allows for less product roll-off, and also allows the spring unit to be “adjustable bed friendly”, along with making it easier for compression and shipping. However, this system is usually not as ”firm” of an edge for a seating surface as the polyfoam tub system. But mattress manufacturers will tell you that this is why chairs were invented. :lol:

Phoenix


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21 Mar 2018 09:42 - 21 Mar 2018 09:45 #3 by cbear08

The pillowtop version adds 2” of 85 kg/M3 (medium) Dunlop.


Hi Phoenix, from what I can tell online and from talking through the chat function to Avocado, I thought the pillowtop adds a plush layers of 65 kg/M3 (soft) Dunlop. I just want to make sure as I am looking at this mattress and would not want to purchase it if the pillowtop is medium and not soft. Sorry if I'm being nit-picky! thank you :)

Last Edit: 21 Mar 2018 09:45 by cbear08.

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21 Mar 2018 11:59 #4 by sarahelic

I also spoke with them via the chat function, and they told me that they recently changed the softness of the pillow top to make it softer but that they still consider it a "medium feel" mattress, even with the soft topper. But of course feel is subjective. :-)

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22 Mar 2018 22:49 #5 by Phoenix

Hi sarahelic.

Thanks for your contribution! :) I appreciate it.

Yes this is correct their 2" NR Dunlop Latex ~ Euro-top layer is now listed as D65kg/m3with 14-16 ILD, soft which is one notch down/softer on their internal firmness rating scale than their standard mattress.

For those interested, the updated specs for the Mattress with Pillow-Top (Luxury Plush, Euro-Style Button-Tufted Pillow Top )
○ Cover is wool and organic cotton
○ 2" (D65 / 14-19 ILD, soft)100% NR Dunlop Latex ~ Euro-top layer
○ 2" (D75 / 20-25 ILD, medium)100% NR Dunlop Latex ~ comfort layer
○ 8" Leggett & Platt Quantum Edge Combi-Zone
○ 1" (denser D85 / 26-31 ILD, medium firm) core base component layer (under the spring unit)

Phoenix


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15 Jun 2018 15:24 - 15 Jun 2018 15:29 #6 by NestHaven

Hi Phoenix,

Thank you for such an informative site - and the overview guides have been most helpful! We wish we had come across this site much earlier in our new mattress journey. Over a year and 9 mattresses later, it's been quite a challenging process (though this site has hopefully saved us from an ongoing saga). So much for the days where one simply went into a store, picked out a mattress, and then that was it.

Given the recent changes that Avocado made to their comfort layers, we're wondering how would the revised pillow-top version of the Avocado mattress compare with Nest Bedding's Hybrid Latex mattress, in terms of firmness particularly (i.e., which mattress would be softer)? Here are Nest's current specs for that mattress:

1" - Wool and Cotton Quilted Zip Top
3" - 28ILD-Medium Oeko-tex Certified Talalay Latex
8" - Quantum Edge Support Pocketed Coils
1" - 1.8lb Transitional Foam

And as you noted in your previous post, here are the current specs for the Avocado mattress:
For those interested, the updated specs for the Mattress with Pillow-Top (Luxury Plush, Euro-Style Button-Tufted Pillow Top )

○ Cover is wool and organic cotton
○ 2" (D65 / 14-19 ILD, soft)100% NR Dunlop Latex ~ Euro-top layer
○ 2" (D75 / 20-25 ILD, medium)100% NR Dunlop Latex ~ comfort layer
○ 8" Leggett & Platt Quantum Edge Combi-Zone
○ 1" (denser D85 / 26-31 ILD, medium firm) core base component layer (under the spring unit)

My fiancee (5'3" & 130lbs) and I (5'10" & 145lbs) are mainly side sleepers, who sleep on our backs probably 30% of the night. Currently, we have Nest's Hybrid Latex (three weeks in now), and find it just a tad too firm (though it seems to continue to break in). Would the Avocado be a little softer with the revised Dunlop latex (particularly the top layer or two: 2" (D65 / 14-19 ILD, soft)100% NR Dunlop Latex ~ Euro-top layer; 2" (D75 / 20-25 ILD, medium)100% NR Dunlop Latex ~ comfort layer?

Or with Nest's use of the 3" - 28ILD-Medium Oeko-tex Certified Talalay Latex, where Talalay latex tends to be softer/less dense/more flexible, would the difference between Avocado's softer ILD Dunlop latex and Nest's firmer ILD Talalay latex be negligible? Is there anything we should be aware of there?

Some additional context - we've tried Brentwood Home's Sequoia (latex/memory foam) & Coronado (gel/memory foam) mattresses, which were both too firm. We also tried Satvaa's Luxury Firm (too firm) and Soft (too squishy) innerspring mattresses. We spent a year on the Serta Glidewell Perfect Sleeper (unfortunately before finding this site; gel/memory foam - too firm/lots of tossing & turning). We then tried the Intellibed Sapphire (too firm - apparently, our BMIs are too light, so the gel matrix never fully compressed - felt like sleeping on concrete, with lots of shoulder/hip pain). We also briefly tried the Leesa mattress (smelled like fish and wasn't tall enough for our bed frame), as well as an Aireloom Hybrid firm mattress (which proved too soft - and caused a lot of lower back pain).

One other note - we did briefly try a 1" soft (20 ILD) latex topper on our Serta mattress, which proved way too soft, lacked proper support, and caused significant lower/mid back pain.

Essentially, we don't want something that is too firm - and will cause us shoulder/hip pain while sleeping on our sides (like the Serta/Intellibed/Satvaa-Luxury Firm/Brentwood Home mattresses did). That said, we also don't want something too soft, which will cause lower/mid back pain (like the Aireloom/Satvaa-Soft/20 ILD latex topper) did.

Our question is - would we likely find much difference with the Avocado mattress with the revised plush topper (and softer Dunlop latex) than our current Nest Hybrid Latex? I know everyone's individual experience is different, but we've come across quite a number of reviews/assessments that found the Avocado mattress too firm for lightweight/side sleepers. We're wondering if the softer Dunlop top layer will make that much difference - or would we likely still have issues with it.

Two other considerations - we are both sensitive to motion transfer (the Nest Hybrid Latex actually does a good job of isolating motion - unlike the Serta & Intellibed mattresses that we had), and have read that the Avocado mattress is prone to a bit of motion transfer. Also, we are both a bit sensitive to pressure, and have heard that the tuft buttons on the Avocado can be a bit bothersome.

We'd appreciate any feedback that you can provide. Again, we've read all of the overviews, and we do realize that each person's experience is different. We're simply trying to decide if we should give the Avocado mattress a try with its revised Dunlop latex comfort layers (if would make much difference), or if we should stick with our Nest Hybrid Latex and give the trial period some more time (Nest, by the way, has been great to deal with - and they are sending us a latex topper to help with the firmness of our mattress).

Thank you!

Last Edit: 15 Jun 2018 15:29 by NestHaven.

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16 Jun 2018 11:14 #7 by Hammer

After trying a 100% latex foam mattress and suffering back & neck pain from not having enough support, my wife and I decided that a hybrid latex/innerspring mattress might give us the comfort and support we were seeking in a new mattress.

We researched all of the hybrids and after weighing the pros & cons of each of them we settled on the Avocado Mattress. We are not tree huggers, so the “green” nature of the mattress was not a factor in our selection, but if that’s your thing its one more plus. Instead, it came down to features, price and trial period/returns.

Avocado sells two versions of the bed one with a pillow topper and one without. Let me state right now that the pillow top is essential for the comfort of this mattress, but I’m getting ahead of myself. Here are the particulars about the mattress as provided by Phoenix in another post.

AG standard 11’ mattress uses:
2” of 75 kg/m3 / 20-25 ILD, medium Dunlop comfort layer
1” of 85 kg/m3 / 26-31, medium-firm Dunlop (under the innerspring unit).
8” 3 zone Leggett & Platt Quantum Edge Combi-Zone pocketed innerspring unit.
Ag pillow-top 13” version adds 2” of 65kg/m3 / 14-19 ILD, soft Dunlop latex.

The order process was simple and a few questions e-mailed to the company were returned in a reasonable amount of time. When the order showed up in one small box I panicked a bit, because I thought there was no way that the entire mattress was in that box, after all this was a high-end innerspring mattress. When I tried to call the company about what was most likely a mistake there was no phone number to be found anywhere on their website.

The driver helped me open the box to see what was in it and I was shocked to find an innerspring mattress rolled & folded up! Based on the website I incorrectly assumed an innerspring mattress was going to be shipped in a full size mattress box. Wrong! The shipping method did give me cause for alarm as to how that pretzel fold was going to hold up over time.

My wife was traveling for the first 10 days we had the mattress so I got to sleep across the whole mattress be myself. Trying new mattresses has always led to an adjustment period, but not with the Avocado, I slept comfortably on the mattress right away. I mentioned above that the topper is essential that’s because the mattress is very firm bordering on hard! I would liken the mattress to sleeping on a floor with deep pile carpet over a thick foam, if, the floor rose up to support your lower back. The mattress has a separate coil system in the lumbar area to support your lower back and it does a great job of it, at least it did for me. When my wife tried the bed for the first time she found the bed too hard and did not get the same lumbar support as I did. Perhaps it has to do with her size (5’1”, 112lbs) versus mine (5’10”, 175lbs) because the lumber support works perfectly for me.

We kept the bed through the full trial period, but ultimately my wife was still not sleeping comfortably. She complained about it being too hard, not supporting her lower back, shoulder pain when sleeping on her side. Me, I loved the mattress! Even on nights where I didn’t sleep well I was still very comfortable lying on the mattress either on my back or on my side. I found there was limited motion transfer with the addition of the innersprings, as compared to significant movement with the all-latex bed.

When I contacted Avocado about returning the mattress they were very helpful and actually asked for my assistance in finding a charity in my area that could benefit from the donation of the mattress. We found a local shelter that was ecstatic to have a new mattress for victims of domestic violence. This was a very admirable move by Avocado to allow us to donate the mattress rather than just take it to the dump!

I would recommend the Avocado to anyone that likes the support of latex and needs the additional lower back support, just do your self a favor and get the pillow top. I will definitely miss the Avocado bed.

Pros
Multiple innerspring support zones
100% natural latex
Price
Green materials, if you’re into that
Socially conscious company
Easy return/refund

Cons
No phone # to speak with company
Shipping method creates long-term durability concerns
Mattresses are made on an as needed basis so expect some delays form order to delivery
Lumbar support seemed variable based on height & weight

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18 Jun 2018 12:00 - 18 Jun 2018 12:01 #8 by NestHaven

Thank you for the feedback, Hammer. Looks like we'll be staying with our Nest Hybrid Latex. The ability to customize it (split firmness) might be of interest to you as well. We'll see what Phoenix weighs in with, too.

Much appreciated....

Last Edit: 18 Jun 2018 12:01 by NestHaven.

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18 Jun 2018 18:38 #9 by Phoenix

Hi NestHaven.

Welcome to our forum! :)

You’re very welcome ... I’m happy that you’ve found us and that the information is assisting you with making an informed choice.. but most importanly .. Congratulations on your new mattress purchase from Nest! :cheer: .
Also, thank you for your patience while I took some time to confirm with Nest Bedding a few details that may be helpful to you.

Our question is - would we likely find much difference with the Avocado mattress with the revised plush topper (and softer Dunlop latex) than our current Nest Hybrid Latex? I know everyone's individual experience is different, but we've come across quite a number of reviews/assessments that found the Avocado mattress too firm for lightweight/side sleepers. We're wondering if the softer Dunlop top layer will make that much difference - or would we likely still have issues with it.


I haven’t personally tried these two mattresses to be able to tell the difference in plushness but the general consensus is that Nests Hybrid latex is much plusher than the base version of AG (which you already know), and some say that it is still plusher than pillow top version of AG. (The difference in firmness rating on AGs own internal scale is from 7(firmer) to 6(softer) with the basic version recommended for stomach and back sleepers, and the pillowtop accommodating the side sleepers)

I would keep in mind that generraly it is not possible to tell the difference in comfort based on the specs alone as there are several other interelated variables or "specs" that will determine how soft or firm an individual layer or a mattress "as a whole" will feel and that ILD is only one of them. One factor may be the tufting in the AG which would compress the layers a bit more and compact the mattress as a whole which will result in removing the "false loft" in the layer and also reduce the degree of repeated compression it was subject to. Also Dunlop and Talalay aren't directly comparable in terms of firmness using only ILD numbers because there are several factors that can affect how soft or firm a mattress (or an individual layer) feels besides just the ILD of the material (see post #4 here ) because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). In addition to this the ILD of different materials or different types and blends of latex also aren't always directly comparable to each other (see post #6 here ) so using the ILD of a particular layer or combination of layers as a reliable indication of how firm a mattress may feel to you compared to another mattress with a different combination of layers can sometimes be more misleading than helpful.

To make a very rough comparison … to get similar pressure relief from both Talalay and Dunlop, "the one-step" ILD difference would generally be in the range of about 4-5ILD with Dunlop ILDs lower than for Talalay, but again this.is greatly dependent on the type of latex (NR, SBR, Blended and % of blend) on the latex producers who generally use different methods to test firmness and may have different ILD ratings. If you are testing a mattress locally then none of this really matters because what you feel when you test a mattress will be more important than any ILD or comfort specs although I do understand that this is more important with an online purchase where you are looking to make an online choice that is somewhat comparable to what you have tested locally.

You are correct that a latex topper can be very effective in fine-tuning a mattress that provides good support but it is a bit too firm for your current comfort needs. It’s very good at providing the needed extra plushness, but it also is supportive as it has an unusual combination of surface softness and deeper firmness/support that comes from its elasticity,

If you did not yet purchase the topper you may wish to hold off for about two weeks as Nest will have a few more options available that you might want to try. I just confirmed with Nest that starting July 1st they’ll have available the major rework of their Nest Hybrid Latex and the Nest All Latex lineups which will now be carried in both Natural and Organic versions at very competitive prices (about $1,500 -$1,600 for the organic hybrid and around $1,000 for the NR hybrid. Both will still have the split layer with firm and medium latex options and the Organic zippered cover has all organic materials wool, cotton and latex and the hybrid versions. In terms of firmness, The Natural version has a soy base quilted foam cover and is a lot plusher than its predecessor, while the Organic will be slightly firmer than the NR version.

For the “princess and the pea” types that are sensitive to slight variances some of the other differences that may also contribute to how soft or firm it may feel to anyone in particular (down to the area of the body in which the firmness is perceived.) are the zoning in each of the pocket coil units. The three-zone design in the AGs spring unit allows for a firmer area in the middle third of the spring unit. The five-zone design in the Nest Bedding Hybrid Latex allows for a bit more contouring under the hips and shoulders. Some people notice zoning in an innerspring unit – others do not. Being deeper in the mattress, it tends to not influence comfort as much as it can contribute to differences in alignment if needed.

Having said all that ... Nest Bedding is one of manufacturing Trusted Members of this site and like all the members here I think very highly of and consider them to compete well with "the best" in the industry. They'll be able to give you good information about how the firmness of each of their layers roughly compares between their various lineups and Dunlop ILD's.
I am looking forward to any further updates you may have.

@ Hammer.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. I appreciate it and I am sure that those considering Avocado mattress will find your comments helpful.
Phoenix


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19 Jun 2018 14:13 #10 by NestHaven

Thank you so much for the detailed follow-up, Phoenix. And no worries at all regarding the delay - well worth the wait, indeed. We definitely appreciated the additional information from Nest, too!

Based on your feedback, it looks like we plan to pause on giving the Avocado mattress a try. Seems like it would still be a bit too firm for our liking (even with the pillow-top option), and we prefer Nest's 5-zone coil system over Avocado's 3-zone system for the reasons that you mentioned. Good to know regarding Avocado's tufting, too.

Overall, we're continuing to give the Nest Hybrid Latex mattress some time. And again, Nest has been great to deal with. They provided us with a soft latex topper to help break in our mattress. While the soft latex topper proved helpful for my fiancee (she noticed less pain/pressure in her shoulders), it's proven too soft for me (not enough lower back support). We'll certainly be on the lookout for Nest's new latex offerings starting in July. Again, thank you so much for that information. If we could get our Nest Hybrid Latex just a smidge softer, I think we'd be set. We're hoping perhaps a little more break-in time will do the trick, too.

Thanks a bunch for the detailed follow-up, as the additional information proved most helpful in our mattress decision-making process. And as consumers who have gotten probably far too involved/experienced on the ups & downs of mattresses, we definitely recommend giving Nest a look. They are one of the best options that we have encountered thus far. Can't thank you enough for all the information on this forum, too, Phoenix!

Much appreciated, & we'll keep the forum posted on how our mattress experience continues to unfold....

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