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normal Plushbeds Botanical Bliss "12 vs. Foam Sweet Foam "13

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12 Sep 2017 17:53 #1 by scoaste

I have done the online research and have settled on 1 of 2 beds. I am curious if other people have also researched these beds and particularly if others have actually tried them. I do realize that everybody has different needs and preferences, but nonetheless I am seeking others' experiences and/or advice.

The Soft Plushbeds has the following layers:
  1. Non-Woven, Organic Cotton Cover
    Certified organic non-woven cotton
    engineered for maximum pressure relief.
  2. 100% Pure New Zealand Wool
    Keeps you cool and comfortable so you sleep
    better naturally. Also ensures your safety by
    exceeding flammability standards.
  3. 100% Natural Talalay Latex Layer
    Two inches of the world's finest pressure-
    reducing latex, offers a buoyant sensation,
    unlike low-grade synthetic blends. Soft
  4. 100% Natural Talalay Latex Layer
    Another three inches of the world's finest
    pressure-reducing latex, for a "float-on-cloud"
    feeling of deep, restful comfort. Medium
  5. ARPICO Organic Latex Core
    Six inches of resilient ARPICO premium organic
    latex, specially vulcanized for a denser feel
    that is comfortably supportive, while resistant to
    sagging and body impressions. Firm
The Foam Sweet Foam would have the following configuration:
  1. Urban Green Quilted Mattress Cover which encases all of the latex layers. The top layer of this quilted cover is a knit fabric made of organic cotton. The middle layer consists of Joma wool. The bottom layer is a fabric which is 100% natural cotton. When these 3 components are quilted together, it is ½ inch thick. Since this is a two sided mattress, the cover will add 1” to make this a 13” mattress.
  2. Three inches Talalay Soft
  3. Three inches Talalay Medium
  4. Three inches Dunlop Medium
  5. Three inches Dunlop XFirm

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13 Sep 2017 10:26 #2 by Phoenix

Hi scoaste,

I have done the online research and have settled on 1 of 2 beds.


The good news is that you’re choosing between two products that use good quality and durable materials.

The Plushbeds 12” Botanical Bliss model uses 2 layers (2” and 3”) of 100% Natural Talalay from Talalay Global, and a 6” core of 100% Natural GOLS Dunlop from Arpico. They list ILD numbers in the choice of the mattress, which I am assuming reflect the softness of the Talalay layers, but these do not coincide with the N1-N5 designations that Talalay Global provides for their Natural Talalay line. In the configuration you stated, it appears that you’d have a top layer of 19-21 ILD Talalay, and a middle layer of 24-26 ILD Talalay, according to the Plushbeds site. Talalay Global lists their “soft” Natural Talalay as N2, with a 20-24 ILD, and their “medium” Natural Talalay as N3, with a 25-29 ILD, as the closest approximations. I don’t know the ILD of the Dunlop core, as I don’t see a listing for that or specific densities for the Dunlop core on their web site. But it is rated as “firm”. The cover does has a zipper on it and you can replace the top layer if you desire or rearrange the top two Talalay layers.

The Foam Sweet Foam Urban Green 13” model has four layers of latex, and their latex is 100% Natural Talalay from Talalay Global, or 100% Natural Dunlop from Lien A. In your configuration, the “soft” Natural Talalay is listed as 18 ILD +/-2, which would put it at the N1 (15-20 ILD) level, and then the “medium” Natural Talalay is listed at 27 ILD +/-2, which puts it at the N3 (25-29 ILD) level. The “medium” Natural Dunlop is rated at a 4.7 lb, or approximately 26 ILD, and the “extra firm” Natural Dunlop is rated at a density of 5.9 lb, or approximately 38 ILD. The FSF Urban Green 13” is two-sided with a zippered encasement, as you mentioned, and all of the layers can be rearranged.

As you may already be aware, Foam Sweet Foam is a member of this site which means that I think very highly of them and that I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency. They are extremely knowledgeable about latex and different configurations, and I would not hesitate to recommend them for your consideration, and I would advise you to have a detailed phone conversation with either of these companies before making a purchase in order to confirm your choice of comfort layers.

I am curious if other people have also researched these beds and particularly if others have actually tried them. I do realize that everybody has different needs and preferences, but nonetheless I am seeking others' experiences and/or advice

.

While you are seeking the advice of others, their comments about the knowledge and service of a particular business can certainly be very helpful, but I would always keep in mind that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and I would be cautious about using anyone else's suggestions, experiences or reviews on a specific mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you. In many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range). In other words ... reviews or other people's experiences in general won't tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or "value" of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here ).

Phoenix


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13 Sep 2017 16:58 - 13 Sep 2017 17:00 #3 by scoaste

Thanks, Phoenix. I didn't have the specific IDL numbers so that helps. Interesting that the IDL of the “medium” Natural Talalay is greater than “medium” Natural Dunlop (although only by 1) for the FSF mattress. I certainly will get the advice of the salespeople before making a final purchase, but I am wary of relying on them too much as they are obviously biased. Of course someone could provide false testimony on their personal experiences too, but I'm looking for some authentic opinions.

I should have mentioned that I'm a back and side sleeper, and on my current mattress wake often with lower back pain that I believe is more because of side sleeping than back. I toss & turn quite a lot too. My current mattress is a Nest Alexander Signature Soft.

Last Edit: 13 Sep 2017 17:00 by scoaste.

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14 Sep 2017 10:37 #4 by Phoenix

Hi scoaste.

Thanks, Phoenix. I didn't have the specific IDL numbers so that helps.


I am glad I can help :)

Interesting that the IDL of the “medium” Natural Talalay is greater than “medium” Natural Dunlop (although only by 1) for the FSF mattress.


Although in the FSF mattress you are considering the ILD of the 3” Medium Talalay (27 ILD) layer is the practically the same ILD as the layer below it which is 3” Medium Dunlop (26 ILD), it is good to keep in mind that Dunlop and Talalay aren't directly comparable in terms of firmness using only ILD numbers because there are several factors that can affect how soft or firm an individual layer (or a mattress) feels besides just the ILD of the material (see post #4 here ) and Dunlop and Talalay that are the same thickness and ILD won't feel the same in terms of their firmness for most people because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). Not only that Talalay and Dunlop have a slightly different feel, with Talalay being “springier”, but the biggest difference is that Dunlop “firms up faster” than Talalay, as it is compressed more.

There is also more about the difference between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here .

I certainly will get the advice of the salespeople before making a final purchase, but I am wary of relying on them too much as they are obviously biased. Of course someone could provide false testimony on their personal experiences too, but I'm looking for some authentic opinions.


One way to recognize the better retailers or manufacturers who are “mattress people” rather than “marketing people” is that once you start asking questions they will not only provide better answers but will also ask you better questions focused on finding out what you really need and prefer and offer their recommendations based on your answers rather than on “marketing stories ”.

I certainly would give strong consideration to the advice of the manufacturer, as no one will have more experience with their products and materials and how they respond and fit different somatotypes, BMIs, sleeping styles, and particular needs. There’s a large difference between being promotional and marketing and “pushing” a product (of which I believe you are referencing about which you are a bit cynical), versus someone using their expertise to offer the layering combination that they feel will best suit your particular needs. This is advice that can only be accumulated through years of experience and product knowledge, and is not something to be acquired through “personal experiences” or “authentic opinions” of people who have purchased a product. Using “reviews” such as those would be the least reliable manner to choose a product, as these tend to be opinions rendered in the short-term by those unqualified to provide an educated analysis of a product, and these opinions can’t take into account the unknowns, variables and personal preferences involved in selecting a mattress for someone else, and whether or not someone else “liked” or “didn’t like” a mattress would tell you nothing about the quality of the product or applicability for yourself. That can be done only through objective analysis of the material within the product, your own personal testing, and in lieu of that, a detailed phone conversation with a knowledgeable manufacturer who genuinely has your best interest at heart.

Even though you are considering two products that are using good quality and durable materials the final decision may not be always easy to make as it involves a combination of objective, subjective and also intangible personal factors. I would strongly suggest that you have a good conversation with each of the online manufacturers you are considering as this can play a big role in which direction you will be leaning. Another look at your finalists from the point of view of your "personal value equation" along with the expertise and recommendations from the conversation with each of the manufacturers would most likely give you enough clues to make an informed decision. The good news is that either way it would be difficult to make a mistake.

I should have mentioned that I'm a back and side sleeper, and on my current mattress wake often with lower back pain that I believe is more because of side sleeping than back. I toss & turn quite a lot too. My current mattress is a Nest Alexander Signature Soft.


The configuration and componentry in your previous Nest Alexander mattress
1.5" Soft Quilted Cover
2" 4 lb. Gel Memory Foam
2" 4 lb. Visco Foam
3" SmartFlow Air Flow Foam
4" 1.8 Density Solid Edge Support Base Layer
has a different feel and level of support altogether than the mattresses you are considering.

The lower back pain could be an indication of poor alignment due to sinking too deeply into the mattress with a construction that may not be as supportive. But of course this is a generalization and you would be the only one that can assess this with certainty through your careful testing of all the factors that may contribute to the back pain you are experiencing in the morning.

If you have any other more specific questions, I’ll do my best to answer them,

Phoenix


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14 Sep 2017 16:44 #5 by scoaste

The lower back pain could be an indication of poor alignment due to sinking too deeply into the mattress with a construction that may not be as supportive.


Actually I was thinking the opposite. :) My feeling is that I am not sinking into the mattress enough. I find myself tossing and turning a lot from my arms falling asleep on my sides, and trying to stretch out my lower back to get some support on my back.

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14 Sep 2017 17:03 #6 by Phoenix

Hi scoaste,

With the configuration that you currently have, it would be odd that the mattress wouldn't allow you to sink in enough, but everyone is different with their preferences (you don't list your height/weight or BMI, so I'm guessing a bit here). That product has a quite thick "comfort cradle", and sometimes a mattress that is too soft on top can allow you to "feel through" to the firmer and deeper support layers, resulting in a mattress that feels "harder" (especially with softer memory foam that isn't very resilient (having high rebound), but one into which you are sinking in quite a bit. But this of course is generalized speculation on my part based upon sleep ergonomic research for common complaints such as yours using configurations like what you have. One other thing to look at would be your pillow to make sure that when on your side it is assisting you in maintaining proper alignment, This can help quite a bit with shoulder issues. But I know this will change if you get a new mattress.

Phoenix


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14 Sep 2017 17:13 #7 by scoaste

I'm 163.5 lbs, 5'10", so my BMI is a perfect 23.5 :)

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15 Sep 2017 11:35 #8 by Phoenix

Hi scoaste,

I'm 163.5 lbs, 5'10", so my BMI is a perfect 23.5


You're absolutely correct. Whatever your BMI, it's the perfect one for you!

One thing you will notice is that with latex, it has a higher resilience (rebound) and support factor than memory foam, so the "softer" latex foams will feel different than the "softer" memory foams. You may feel a bit more of a "buoyant" comfort, which may feel better for your low back. Your own personal testing of course will be the ultimate indicator of what you may prefer, and it may very well be that you do prefer very, very soft upper comfort layers, but I will be interested in learning your opinion if you do try out an all-latex item.

Phoenix


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18 Sep 2017 17:40 - 18 Sep 2017 17:41 #9 by scoaste

Ha, ha. What I meant is that the BMI value is right in the middle for my height and weight :) Anyway, I contacted both companies to get their recommendations. One recommended a softer mattress altogether (12" Cool Bliss) and the other recommended a firmer configuration.

Plushbeds:
3" of cool bliss gel memory foam top - 4 lb.
2" of 100% natural latex - soft - 19 - 21 ILD
2" air flow layer
5" supportive core - 2.1 Density
100% organic cotton cover

FSF:
Soft Talalay or Medium Talalay
Medium Dunlop
Firm Dunlop
XFirm Dunlop

I am fairly certain firmer is not the answer. It also looks to me like the Cool Bliss is very similar to the Nest mattress I have now. Also, if I am to consider the Cool Bliss mattress, I'll have to add in my thus far undeclared option 3, which was the Amerisleep AS5...

Last Edit: 18 Sep 2017 17:41 by scoaste.

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19 Sep 2017 09:29 #10 by Phoenix

Hi scoaste,

Anyway, I contacted both companies to get their recommendations. One recommended a softer mattress altogether (12" Cool Bliss) and the other recommended a firmer configuration


Both of these mattresses would, purely from a "specification" perspective, provide a bit of a “firmer” surface comfort than your current mattress.

The CoolBliss uses latex in the second layer from the top, as opposed to memory foam in your current mattress, and this latex is both more supportive and a slightly firmer ILD with a higher compression modulus than the memory foam in your current mattress in the same area. You’d also want to know the density of the convoluted foam layer (2” air flow polyfoam layer) before making a final choice if you liked this product. This mattress is not customizable.

The Foam Sweet Foam mattress is all latex, and with four layers it is quite customizable. If you’re desiring a bit of a more plush surface comfort, the suggestion using the plush Talalay latex for the uppermost layer would most likely be to your liking, with the rest of the layers following a very “standard” progressive construction. If you found this configuration too firm, you could then change the second or third layer to your preference.

Latex will have a much more supportive soft feel (point elastic) while at the same time allowing for better support (firms up faster with a higher compression modulus as compared to memory foam), so this may be a combination of softness and support that could help with your low back issues (which are usually caused by something too soft or unsupportive).

The CoolBliss is “closer” to what you currently have, but all of the layers of a mattress work together to create the overall comfort, so it will certainly have a different feel from your present mattress. The all-latex configuration of the Foam Sweet Foam mattress will be more of a “departure” from your current configuration, having a more buoyant/supportive level of plushness that is representative of latex.

Phoenix


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