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normal Mattress Construction

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17 Oct 2017 05:12 - 17 Oct 2017 05:26 #1 by kezwald

Hello from the U.K. First of all can I congratulate you on such a well informed site:)
Initially I was going to construct my own latex mattress but unfortunately in the UK it is proving difficult apart from one supplier to source Latex slabs so could build my own, and it is near impossible to source a suitable ticking without having one custom made which would be very expensive. The only thing I can get is more of a encasement/protector.
With this in mind ive decided to have the lower layers in foam and a Latex comfort layer on top and would appreciate your Knowledge on the following please.

Option 1
1/ Support layer 8" HD foam
2/ Middle layer 3" convoluted LayGel (artificial latex) 60kg density, min(N) max(N) hardness is 100N to 150N = 22-33 ILD
3/ Top layer 31/4 " 85% natural Dunlop Latex 65kg density, 4.8Kpa = 35 ILD

Option 2
1/ Support layer 6" HD foam
2/ 31/4 " 85% natural Dunlop Latex 65kg, 35 ILD
3/ 31/4 " 85% Natural Dunlop Latex 65kg, 35 ILD
I am also considering adding a 3Lbs merino wool pad on the top of each option above if this makes sense
I am165Ibs and my partner 140Ibs both under 72" tall, side sleepers if this helps
Could you please tell me how the above options would feel when we lay on them as we would like a medium mattress but feeling soft on the comfort layer and supportive.
Ideally I would like an all natural latex mattress but the cost involved in the UK for Dunlop Latex alone never mind in Talalay especially if custom built , I think this would be a lot more expensive than you guys pay in the USA. Especially as we want a high mattress at least 12" thick, or even if was practical to have a 12" mattress in U.K king size 79"x59" approx

Any help would be much appreciated
Thanks Kez

Last Edit: 17 Oct 2017 05:26 by kezwald. Reason: added wool

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17 Oct 2017 14:54 #2 by Phoenix

Hi kezwald,

Welcome to the forum! :)

As you’re aware, this site focuses upon North America, so I’m sorry I can’t be of much help with souring materials in the UK. But I can comment upon some of your DIY questions.

The first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project ... the best approach to a DIY mattress is a "spirit of adventure" where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).

As for your configurations, the kPa and ILD numbers for the density of Dunlop latex you are providing don’t seem to align too well, unless these numbers were achieved at a deeper 40% or even 60% deflection (versus the “usual” 25% deflection) using ISO 2439. Density is the best way to relate softness and one piece of latex to another in Dunlop latex, and most manufacturers would consider a 65 kg/M3 Dunlop latex to be in the “soft” range. The ILD and kPA you show is that of a firmer piece of latex. A kPa of 4.5 or so is generally consider to be firm for Dunlop, as would a 35 ILD. So the first thing I would mention is that you are considering using some pieces of “softer” Dunlop latex in your proposed construction.

Next, I would tell you to find out the actual density of the polyfoam cores you are considering using. The term “HD” for polyfoam is overused for a very wide level of foam densities, so you’d want to be given a number instead of a term for this foam. I’d recommend at least 1.8 lb/ft3 density.

As for how this would feel, that is the one thing that I wouldn’t be able to relate to you, as there are far too many personal variables and preferences involved, and unless you are replicating a mattress that you have already sampled in person, the only true way to tell how something like this would feel would be through your own personal testing.

Assuming the polyfoam core was at least a 1.8 lb density, the materials you are considering using certainly would be of a better and more durable quality range, and I would think that your resulting mattress would be in the “soft to medium” range, but that again is entirely subjective.

All of this is part of the DIY process, and if you aren’t able to copy a similar design that you’ve already sampled, then your best option is to acquire the guidance of a foam supplier or manufacturer who has experience with the type of componentry you are considering using.

Best of luck, and I’ll be interested in learning about what you decide to choose, or if you have more specific questions.

Phoenix


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19 Oct 2017 14:30 #3 by kezwald

Thank you for your informative reply and sorry for the late response.

Further to your questioning regarding 4.8Kpa to ILD not matching up to the 65KG/m3 I have found this information.

The hardness of a foam is a measurement that gives a perceived firmness rating for a customer, ie the harder the foam is the firmer it will feel. This is where density being the only measure of support is inaccurate. You need to also know the hardness.  Hardness is measured in a set range of tolerance and is not a one size fits all figure. It is worked out by compressing a piece of foam to 40% of its original size. This measurement is then displayed in newtons (N) so a hardness rating of 70-100N means it takes between 70 and 100 newtons of pressure to compress it to 40%. The higher the figure the more force is needed and, therefore, the firmer the foam.

so what 65KG/m3, 4.8Kpa means in true ILD figures at 20% compression I don't know, giving my calculation of 1Kpa=7.25ILD initially ? I would be grateful if you had any input on this.

Other than that I have decided against the man made foam roures given the when priced up there was not a huge difference in cost going for 100% Dunlop. which I'm looking at a company know for a price and spec which I will further share with you.

Than you
Kez

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19 Oct 2017 15:21 #4 by Phoenix

Hi kezwald,

The best article I’ve found that states the relationship between Pascal, Newton and softness, without getting “too deep into the weeds”, is this one from European Bedding . I think this has some really good information for you.

Regarding the kPa, there are still variables we don’t know, even the size of the disc being used for testing, and in the end it’s really much easier and more relative to use the density of the Dunlop latex to related the softness. You can see some of the ILD's for different densities of Latex Green's 100% natural Dunlop in post #2 here . 65 kg/M3 is generally regarded as a plush Dunlop latex.

Phoenix


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16 May 2018 15:53 - 16 May 2018 15:54 #5 by kezwald

Hi Phoenix,
Sorry for the late reply unfortunately i was taken ill not long after your reply and have undergone a couple of ops and on the urgent waiting list 9never ending) with our crazy NHS here in the U.K. The main thing im on the mend though.
Since we last spoke i did look for suitable mattress encasements to DIY nut not much luck over here im afraid. I am now looking to purchase a complete latex mattress and would value your opinion to those i think suitable (similar feel to Dunlopillo Royal Soverign medium tension)

The company has told me they use Latexco as their supplier and there is more info about each mat if you click on the links but will quickly list the specs

Natural dunlop Latex 100%

www.latexsense.co.uk/superdeluxe-latex-mattress/p10

]Latex technology:Natural Latex made by the Dunlop process
Composition: Natural latex - halogen, metal and chemical free.
OEKO TEX 100 Class 1 certified product. Eurolatex certified product
Fire retardant: Complies with BS7177 and BS5852
Cover: Easy care zip-off removable Tencel-Purotex cover
Latex density: Soft- 65kg per cubic meter, Medium- 70kg per cubic meter or Firm- 80kg per cubic meter
Comfort zones: 7 comfort zones
Firmness rating: Available in Soft, Medium and Firm comfort rating

www.latexsense.co.uk/premium-latex-mattress/p8

Latex technology: Natural Latex made by the Dunlop process.
Composition: Natural latex - halogen, metal and chemical free.
OEKO TEX 100 Class 1 certified product. Eurolatex certified product
Fire retardant: Complies with BS7177 and BS5852
Cover: Easy care zip-off removabla and washable Bamboo quilted cover, 40% cotton- 60% polyester
Latex density: Soft- 65kg per cubic meter, 4.2kPa, Medium- 70kg per cubic meter, 4.8kPa and Firm- 80kg per cubic meter, 5.8 kPa
Comfort zones: 7 comfort zones
Firmness rating: Available in Soft, Medium and Firm comfort rating
Mattress thickness: Approximately 20cm, 18cm thick latex core with deep quilted cover
Sizes: Available in all standard and custom sizes


Pure Latex 20/80
[ihttps://www.latexsense.co.uk/favourite-latex-mattress/p7][/i]

[size=3Latex technology: Blended Latex made by the Dunlop process- 20% natural and 80% synthetic latex
Composition: 20% natural and 80% synthetic latex - halogen, metal and chemical free.
OEKO TEX 100 Class 1 certified product. Eurolatex certified product
Fire retardant: Complies with BS7177 and BS5852
Cover: Removable and washable Tencel-Purotex quilted cover, 40% cotton- 60% polyester
Latex density: Soft- 65kg per cubic meter, Medium- 70kg per cubic meter and Firm- 80kg per cubic meter
Comfort zones: 7 comfort zones
Firmness rating: Soft, Medium and Firm comfort rating
Mattress thickness: Approximately 24cm, 22cm thick latex core with deep quilted cover
Sizes: Available in all standard and custom sizes]


Natural organic Dunlop latex 100%

www.latexsense.co.uk/serenity-organic-latex-mattress/p21

[size=3The Serenity Organic Latex Mattress is made with 22cm thick 100% natural and organic Dunlop Latex core and organic cotton and organic wool cover. The textiles in this mattress are GOTS certified (Global Organic Textile Standards).
Our natural latex is sourced from Sri Lanka and is certified to GOLS (Global Organic Latex Standards), it is entirely natural, chemical and metal free. The 22cm natural latex core is finished with zip-off removable organic cotton cover quilted with layers of pure organic merino wool . The finished mattress is approximately 24cm deep. The Organic Latex Mattress is naturally breathable and feels cool in summer and warm in winter.
The Serenity Organic Latex Mattress features the unique 7-comfort zones structure, which recognizes that for optimum comfort both heavier or lighter parts of the body require different levels of support. The 7-zone structure never stops giving you the vital support to your head, shoulders, back, hips, legs, knees and ankles, that allows night long natural sleep.
Natural properties of latex provide environment free from microorganisms, mites, bacteria and dust that generally cause number of allergies and inflammations. at you need for a healthy night's sleep. This beautifully made mattress is naturally fire retardant, it is available in soft, medium or firm comfort feels and is an excellent choice for the organic lifestyle. sizes][/size]

A email from the company regards the last time we spoke about ILD/Kpa their reply was
"The kPa is measured at 25% indentation, the test method is indeed ISO 2439."
Another email stating the latex type used in the top 2 i mentioned
"our Premium and Superdeluxe models in medium comfort feel with 70kg density, we use 100% natural Dunlop latex."

This is what they mention their latex is which i think is the same principle as yourselves
"Technically speaking, there are three types of latex used in mattresses:
• 100% natural latex – made with 100% natural rubber latex
• Natural latex – made with 85% natural rubber latex and 15% synthetic latex
• Pure latex – made with 20% natural rubber latex and 80% synthetic latex"

As always grateful for any info on the above and what is/if worth buying along with your preference
Thank you
kez

Last Edit: 16 May 2018 15:54 by kezwald.

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17 May 2018 08:25 #6 by kezwald

If i may i would also like to add these 2 mattresses into the equation as they add an element of Talalay in the comfort layer.

www.latexsense.co.uk/latex-bliss-mattress/p13

[size=3100% Natural latex mattress that combines the benefits of Talalay and Dunlop latex. 3cm softer Talalay latex top relieves pressure points, 5cm of medium Talalay latex offers uplifting support and 15cm Dunlop latex base keeps your back and spine in the correct position during sleep.][/size]

www.latexsense.co.uk/latex-opulence-mattress/p12

100% Natural latex mattress made with 5cm natural Talalay latex top for extra pressure relief and 18cm natural Dunlop latex base for better support. Naturally breathable, self-ventilating, anti-allergenic, anti-bacterial, anti-dust mite. Choose between soft, medium and firm comfort feel, available in all standard and bespoke sizes.

Im not sure if this will be necessary as i intend to place my 3" 65kg/soft Dunlop topper i purchased last October on top of any mattress i go for

Thanks again
kezwald

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18 May 2018 00:01 #7 by Phoenix

Hi kezwald.


I am sorry to hear that you’ve been taken ill and I hope you’ve had the chance to get better and fully recover.

It does look like there is not much that I can add to the information you provided….all of the mattresses you listed are using latex from reputable suppliers and they are good/quality choices with no weak links in their design that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life. You may be heading for a stage in your research were too much technical information, which you "studied" in great detail, can quickly lead to "information overwhelm" and "paralysis by analysis" …of course on the other side too little information could lead to a blind purchase and buying a mattress that is either low quality for a budget range or poor value, but both these approaches can lead to poor choices.

As the materials in the mattress you are considering are durable ... the choice between different types and combinations of materials and components or different types of mattresses is more of a preference and a budget choice than a "better/worse" choice (see this article ). The best way to know which types of materials or mattresses or firmness levels you tend to prefer in very general terms will be based on your own local testing or your own personal experience. I would make sure to test general firmness levels you’d tend to prefer which can help you narrow down your choices regardless of whether you end up purchasing locally or online.

The choice between different types and blends of latex is more of a preference and budget choice rather than a "better/worse" choice and any type or blend of latex is a durable material relative to other types of foam materials. There is more about the different types and blends of latex in post #6 here and more about how Dunlop compares to Talalay in general in post #7 here but the best way to know which type or blend of latex you tend to prefer will be based on your own testing and/or your own personal experience.

Both Dunlop and Talalay would make a very high-quality foam that is more durable than any other types of foam materials (such as memory foam or polyfoam) and also have unique characteristics in terms of their ability to relieve pressure and provide support (get firmer with increased compression). The ability of softer latex to relieve pressure as well as memory foam and also to "hold up" the heavier parts of the body better than any other foam is part of the reason why so many people consider latex to be such a desirable material in a mattress.

As you mentioned if organic is important to you as part of your personal value equation , then you can read more about organic Dunlop in post #6 here and about organic certifications in post #2 here ).

In terms of cost ... Synthetic or blended Dunlop is the least expensive (less natural rubber lowers the cost of the material), Natural Dunlop and blended Talalay are roughly equivalent, and Natural Talalay and organic Dunlop are generally the most expensive. There are some variations here because of variations in methods of production and variations of NR latex used between different foam producers and other factors but in general, this is roughly accurate. Which is best for each person depends on their preferences and their budget because all latex is a high-quality material compared to other types of foam.

As always grateful for any info on the above and what is/if worth buying along with your preference


Unfortunatley I would not be able to assess in any meaningful way what any of the choices woutl be "worth" for you as this is entirely based on your own personal value equation and while I can certainly help with "how" to choose ... It's not possible to make specific suggestions based on my own preferences or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, or PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress), sleeping positions, health conditions, or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more reliable than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see post #2 here ).

I hope that the research you’ve done so far along with some local testing will help you narrow down your choices to the “one” that is “best for you” .... I’d be interested to find what you decided.

Phoenix


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18 May 2018 05:12 #8 by kezwald

Hi Phoenix,
Thank you again for the wealth of information you provide.
If i was to narrow my list and the reasons behind what's in and what's not in my shortlist would be as follows:
What's not on my list
The Favourite latex mattress reason its pure 20/80 latex and i would prefer a mattress that contains natural latex of at least 80% not 20% as in this one to give that wow factor of latex

The Premium latex mattress reason it contains approx 1" polyester padding on each side as the top layer along with it only contains 7" 100% natural latex (although i could make it 10" latex with my 3" topper)

The organic varieties mattresses reason as i think i understand it commands a higher price tag unnecessarily, and given i have a artificial grass lawn i wouldn't say i lead that organic lifestyle

In no particular order what's in my list
Option1/ The superdeluxe latex mattress reason it contains approx. 9.5" 100% natural Dunlop latex and i can put my 3" 65kg Dunlop topper on top making it a total of just under 12" of latex.
This mat is made up of
Tencil cover
2cm soft latex (approx. 0.8") 100% natural Dunlop
inner cotton cover
2cm (approx. 0.8") 100% natural Dunlop comfort layer
18cm (approx. 7.1") 100% natural Dunlop core
2cm (approx. 0.8")
inner cotton cover
Tencil cover


option 2/3 The latex bliss and Latex opulence mattresses reason they contain 100% natural Dunlop latex and Talalay latex although im unsure if i would be defeating the principle if i put my 3" Dunlop 65kg topper on these ?
These both have a Tencil cover and are made up of either a
2cm (approx. 0.8") soft Dunlop latex or 2cm (approx. 0.8") soft Dunlop latex
inner cotton cover or inner cotton cover
3cm (approx 1.2") softer Talalay or 5cm (approx 2" natural Talalay latex
15cm (approx. 5.9") Dunlop core or 18cm (approx 7.1") Dunlop core
inner cotton cover or inner cotton cover


one is not "necessarily" better than another in either pressure relief or support layers if the right layering or ILD is chosen for each ... but you may need to choose a softer ILD with Dunlop than with Talalay to get similar pressure relief in the comfort layers..

Given you mention this in another topic im wondering if the Dunlop latex mattress i mentioned in option 1 in a medium 70kg density with what looks like it includes softer Dunlop latex in its construction layers along with my 3" 65kg Topper on top would indeed give me the pressure relieving quality's similar to the dunlop & Talalay latex as in option 2/3 above. If so this maybe the deal clincher for me, or would i still be better getting one of the Dunlop/Talalay versions with my topper on top but myself cant see how tis would work.

The problem im having in the U.K is that full latex mattresses are not as popular as in America and so limited to the number of outlets selling them to try out the different types along with what few sell them only deal with Dunlopillo without going online although the supplier im going to get it from does offer a X amount of time trial.
Also with Brexit looming cost as started to increase i would like to buy one before prices sky rocket.

Again thank you for your continued support and valuable independent information. I would buy you a lot of drinks if the distance between us was not so vast:)
kezwald

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19 May 2018 19:27 #9 by Phoenix

Hi kezwald.

Thank you for your nice thoughts and kind words. I appreciate it! :)

they contain 100% natural Dunlop latex and Talalay latex although im unsure if i would be defeating the principle if i put my 3" Dunlop 65kg topper on these ?


I don't think this would be necessarily "harmful", but for example, depending on your body type, sleeping positions and the layer thickness and ILD....if you would place softer layers of Talalay under the soft Dunlop it may not be just as ideal because it may result in less supportive base layers which could affect your alignment. The upper layers to some degree could "bend" into the soft layer underneath and increase the risk of alignment issues although by the time the compression forces reach the lower layers most of them have dissipated and spread out into the layers above the bottom layer… it would also depend on your weight (heavier weights would affect the bottom layer more than lighter weights).

im wondering if the Dunlop latex mattress i mentioned in option 1 in a medium 70kg density with what looks like it includes softer Dunlop latex in its construction layers along with my 3" 65kg Topper on top would indeed give me the pressure relieving quality's similar to the Dunlop & Talalay latex as in option 2/3 above.


It is not possible to determine via an online forum if the mattress /topper combination + Option 1(or any other options) would have the right “pressure relieving qualities” ..only you can feel what you feel and there are far too many variables involved that would change how this topper mattress combination will feel and perform for you. Adding the 7 cm topper will result in 32 cm thick mattress and this design is enough to have a different overall feel than option 2/3 … all the layers and components of a mattress will have an effect on all the other layers and on the mattress "as a whole" The Talalay underneath the Dunlop will lend some of it’s properties to the layer above but of course the most suitable layering would also depend on your weight, body type, sleeping positions, and preferences. I am afraid that we are back at square one .... the best chance of success in finding the right fit is only your own personal testing or a detailed phone conversation with the retailer/manufacturer that would be much more familiar with their own mattress designs and materials than anyone else (including me) and who can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your local testing to make suggestions based on the "averages" of other customers that may be similar to you.

You might also wish to keep in mind is that Talalay in the same ILD will feel a little plusher and bouncier (more resilient) than Dunlop and they aren't directly comparable in terms of firmness using only ILD (or density) numbers because there are several factors that can affect how soft or firm a mattress (or an individual layer) feels besides just the ILD of the material because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). There is more about the difference between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here . The other issue that they may be worth thinking about is that soft Talalay (even though is under the 2 cm of quilted Dunlop) if it is 100% natural (rather than blended) may be less durable than the equivalent 100% natural Dunlop (whether it is certified organic or not) in the softer ILD's (you can read more about this in this article ).

Overall the most reliable way to know how two mattresses compare for you (regardless of how they would compare for someone else) is based on your own personal testing and experience.
I am sorry I can't be more helpful, but I hope that between this and a good conversation with latexsense you'll get to the best of the 3 options you are considering.

Phoenix


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21 May 2018 09:14 #10 by hank1212

Hello,

Hoping I could get some expert advice. I was looking at putting together a diy mattress with the following layers:
Linenspa 6 Inch Innerspring Mattress (Amazon)
Foam Factory 6 inch 29 ild Dunlop latex core
DIY Natural bedding 3 inch Wool topper
Does this sound like it might work? I'm 6'2 200 lb back/side sleeper.
Thanks,
Hank

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