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normal Latex layering question

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12 Jan 2018 13:14 - 12 Jan 2018 16:30 #21 by gardenguy

Sorry, might have been unclear in that last post. I'm using 3 inches 19 ild all natural talalay latex over 2 inch aerus. To me alignment is pretty good, maybe just a touch too deep of cradle but it hasn't been giving me much problem and I sleep through the night. Pressure relief for my lighter body in the shoulder area could use a bit more. I'm trying out a 2 inch layer on top next in place of the 19, and in 14 ild. If this doesn't work I'll move into 19 blended in 2 inch to be closer to the conforming memory foam below, or as a third option one inch of each 19 and 14...even though it'll be the most expensive option. The retailer I talked with said 2- one inch pieces will feel only slightly softer than one- 2 inch piece. With all the pieces and different thicknesses I'll have in the course of the next month, I'm sure to have many combos to try. I suppose it depends which combo works first in regards to how far I go down the rabbit hole. As far as comfort though, to me, it's quite acceptably comfortable right now and I could probably easily live with it. Some nights I will still have more tension in my shoulder than I would like, but it's worlds better than the 19 over 28 I had tried, without the memory foam. I was experiencing actual shoulder pain at that point, almost a crushing sensation. I don't have any prior shoulder injuries and am a side sleeper, so I'm assuming comfort has a lot to do with body weight, layering dynamics, perceived comfort, and sensitivities in the body to alignment-pressure. I'm convinced, for me,1-2 inch layers are going to be what's going to dial it in. Anyway, hope any of this helps.

Last Edit: 12 Jan 2018 16:30 by gardenguy. Reason: Wasn't descriptive enough

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12 Jan 2018 17:26 #22 by Phoenix

Hi Bamm98,

Both of the combinations you mention may assist you with pressure relief and the feeling you are looking for,

Whereas I can’t predict how this will feel to you, the new configuration you describe ( 2” 5lb Areus MF / 3” 19 ILD / 1” 30ILD / 8” combi coil) will overall have a softer feel than your previous configuration of (3” 19ILD / 3” 28ILD / 8” CombiCoil)
The plush Memory Foam on top configuration will have a deader feel than the Latex only configuration, you will sink in quite a bit more, and it will soften more with heat and pressure. I cannot tell if this will be the last straw to get your perfect comfort needs for you as this is too subjective, but it is worth a try, given that you like the feel of MF on top.

The next configuration you are mentioning (1” 14/19ILD / 2” 5lb MF / 28 ILD/ 8” Coil) would still have a dead feel, but not as much as the first configuration you mentioned. You will still experience some of the sink in of the Memory Foam but with the 1” latex on top this feeling will be somewhat tempered as the latex will act as barrier and will lend some of its properties to the MF below. Unless you are the “Princes and the Pea” type the difference between the 14ILD and 19ILD will most likely not be significant for this thickness.

I hope this helps you narrow down a bit your choices and I would very interested to find out what worked for you.

Good luck!

Phoenix


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25 Jan 2018 11:14 #23 by Bamm98

Just an update. I flip flopped the 19 and 28 toppers and have the 28 on top of the 19 now. Only slept on it one night so far. I think I like the feel of the slightly firmer surface, but still tossed and turned all night. I know it has only been one night, an I plan on trying this combination for a couple more nights. I am to the point now, I think the wife and I can not sleep directly on latex. I think it is the "pushback" feeling which is making it uncomfortable. I still think I will probably need to try the Aerus Plus 5lb MF topper. Not sure to order the 2 inch or 3 inch. This would be placed over the 28 / combi-coil set up. If I were to go 2 inch MF, I think I am leaning towards getting a good quality 1 inch polyfoam to make up the difference in height. I would need to decide whether to place the polyfoam under the MF or under the 28. I think I would need a medium density polyfoam if placed under the MF and a higher density if placed under the 28. I don't think I want a 1 inch layer of latex, if the comfort issue is the latex. I may even try just the 28 over the coil unit for a night or two before trying the MF. This site is great and has a lot of information. Thanks for all the replies so far, and look forward to hearing about suggestions.

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25 Jan 2018 19:09 #24 by Phoenix

Hi Bamm98,

I am glad to hear that you are one step closer to fine tune and find the best combination that works for you, and I agree that it is best to take some time with each change and give enough time for the body to adjust.

I am to the point now, I think the wife and I can not sleep directly on latex. I think it is the "pushback" feeling which is making it uncomfortable. I still think I will probably need to try the Aerus Plus 5lb MF topper. Not sure to order the 2 inch or 3 inch. This would be placed over the 28 / combi-coil set up.


Some people do not like the more resilient and “pushback” feel of latex and prefer the less supportive feel of memory foam this is one of those variables that are completely dependent on your preferences. There’s nothing wrong with not liking either latex as regardless of the level of quality of componentry, if you don’t like the feel of a particular material, it doesn’t matter how good that material might be.

The Aerus Plus 5lb MF topper is certainly a good quality and more durable choice. Adding 2” memory foam on top will give just a bit change in the comfort and add some surface plushness while 3” of MF will give a little more moderate change in the surface comfort because the Memory foam will be more point elastic and not so resilient as latex and you will tend to go more through to the layers below than you would with a latex layer. Keep in mind that with the Memory Foam (which does not have the resilience of latex) quite often to achieve a softer surface modification you would need a little bit more material then you would need from a corresponding layer of latex to achieve the same effect in plushness (e.g. if 2” of latex are needed to achieve a moderate softness then to achieve the same moderate softness you would need about 3” of MF)

If I were to go 2 inch MF, I think I am leaning towards getting a good quality 1 inch polyfoam to make up the difference in height. I would need to decide whether to place the polyfoam under the MF or under the 28. I think I would need a medium density polyfoam if placed under the MF and a higher density if placed under the 28.


I don’t know if you came across this reading on our site but It is good to recall that for polyfoam density and firmness are not directly related while density and durability are strongly related and whether you place the polyfoam layer in the upper part of the bed or in the lower part of the bed it would be best to choose a high density (not “medium density”) good quality polyfoam. You can have a soft layer of high density polyurethane such as the newer generation of the high performance polyfoam. The Energex is a high quality polyfoam, one of the newer generation of what I term high performance” polyfoams
The closer the polyfoam layer will be placed towards the upper part of the mattress the more will be influencing the comfort and lend it’s qualities to the layer above.

The configuration 2” MF + 1” polyfoam + 3” (28 ILD) with the polyfoam layer between the MF and latex will of course will keep you furthest away from the feeling of latex that you are not enjoying. It would make sense in this configuration to get a softer high density 3lb polyfoam such as Energex (or one of the new generations of high performance polyfoams out on the market)

Going with the 2” MF + 3” (28 ILD) + 1” polyfoam, and placing the polyfoam under the latex of course it will have less of an impact on comfort and with the latex just under the MF will allow for its qualities to blead more into the MF layer above. Based on your description and desire to keep away from the latex and the more resilient feeling of it then probably the best configuration would be to place the poly in-between the MF and Latex. Regardless if the polyfoam goes under or beneath the latex you still need to have a good quality higher density polyfoam layer.

I'm looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding ...

Phoenix


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26 Jan 2018 06:46 #25 by Bamm98

Phoenix,
Last night was the second night on the dominate layering set up. This set up is definitely not going to work. Major lower back pain and some shoulder pain while sleeping on my side. The previous and original set up (19 over 28 over coil unit) is the most comfortable but was still causing lower back pain for me and the wife, but seemed like shoulder comfort was ok. Based off of my previous post using MF, what would be your recommendation to try (2 vs 3 inches of MF). Thanks in advance.

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27 Jan 2018 00:15 #26 by Phoenix

Hi Bamm98,

The experience you had the second night on the firmer configuration clearly reinforces your initial assessment that you would need more surface plushness / comfort cradle. If the 19 over 28 over coil was closer to your desired comfort but still gives you shoulder pains, the next logical step would be to add the softer layer of memory foam on top. This will help both with the shoulder pressure point issue and with getting the feel of memory foam that you like as opposed to the feel of latex that does not work well for you.

Unfortunately I still cannot pick up one of the options for you on an online forum as this is far too personal in nature and only you can feel what you feel on the mattress. If you want just a bit of plushness then the 2’ of memory foam would be a good choice, if you want more substantial plushness and pressure relief then the 3” would be the better choice. In either case you will not know for sure which one is the best until you purchase it and try it… the best you can do is to base your choice on your experience up to now.

Because of the uncertainty involved with purchasing a topper where you can't test the combination in person ... a good exchange/return policy can also reduce the risk of an online topper purchase so I would also make sure you are comfortable with the options you have available after a purchase to exchange or return the topper and any costs involved just in case the topper you choose also doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for.

There is more information about choosing a topper in post #2 here and the topper guidelines it links to, which along with a conversation with a reliable and knowledgeable supplier (that can provide you with good information about how their toppers compare to each other or to other toppers they are familiar with that are available on the market), can help you use your sleeping experience as a reference point and guideline to help you choose the type, thickness, and firmness for a topper that has the least possible risk and the best chance for success.

Phoenix


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27 Jan 2018 16:38 #27 by Bamm98

One last question before I order the MF topper. I know there will be some difference between a 1 inch layer of 14ILD blended talalay and a 1 inch layer of 20ILD natural dunlop, but how much difference do you think there would be between the two in such a thin layer? I am leaning towards a 2 inch layer of MF with a soft thin layer of latex on top, instead of the poly foam I recently mentioned. I do not think a 1 inch layer of latex will have a whole lot of "pushback", or will it?

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31 Jan 2018 07:51 #28 by MattressToGo

Placing a 1" layer of ultra plush latex (Talalay or Dunlop) won't provide much "pushback" as you describe it, especially when placed upon 2" of memory foam. The Dunlop would add a bit more "surface tension" than the Talalay in you example.

Doubling up to 2" would increase the resilience ("pushback") that you would feel, and the difference, however slight, between the Dunlop and Talalay in your example would stand out a bit more, but being placed upon the 2" of memory foam would again to a degree temper this "pushback".

Unfortunately, there's not a scale for a finished product where I could relate this to you and even with a ball rebound test it would only be comparative and not relatable to your own personal comfort preferences.

I know those aren't definitive answers, but maybe it helps you out a bit. Thought I'd throw that out there for you to consider.

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator
Beducation / Mattress To Go


Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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13 Feb 2018 16:13 #29 by Bamm98

Update: I changed out both of my 3 inch blended talalay layers (19 and 28) for two 2 inch layers of all natural dunlop (med 30 and soft 20). This is a great improvement. I feel the dunlop is much better suited for me. I do not feel the "pushback" nearly as much with the dunlop. I placed 2 one inch layers of poly foam I had on the top of the dunlop. Current set up: 8 inch zoned combi coil unit, 2 inch med. dunlop, 2 inch soft dunlop, and two 1 inch layers of poly foam. This set up is by far the best I have tried to date. I am still concerned about the low quality poly foam not holding up. I would like some feedback as to what foam to use in place of the poly foam. I am still considering a 2 inch layer of Aerus Plus 5lb MF. I recently tried a Serta 3 inch MF topper (3lb), and it was way to soft. I also am considering a 1 inch layer of 5.3lb MF from FoamOrder, and an additional 1 inch layer of either plush talalay or dunlop. Based on what I have tried, and my current setup, could someone point me in the right direction. Thanks in advance.

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14 Feb 2018 07:47 #30 by MattressToGo

I don't know if it is the change from Dunlop to Talalay you prefer, or the fact that you reduced the amount of latex 33% from 6" to 4" and placed the polyurethane foam on top, but it is working, as you have a total amount overall of less resilient material (less pushback overall), so that's a good thing as it is what you prefer.

As for your polyurethane foam, I don't know that it is lower quality. What is the density? IFD? Compression modulus? If it is working for you, I wouldn't be in a rush to replace it. If you want to go with memory foam you certainly can, and this will change your feel again on top. Just choose something with a good density. Four lb or above is usually a good place two start.

No one can tell you what specific foam combinations of the ones you've provided will work best for you. It's entirely too subjective and you have a very specific combination that you've created. If you're adding back latex, you're adding back resilience, which you don't seem to prefer. I'd recommend focusing upon finding a higher quality piece of polyurethane foam(s) to replace what you're currently using once it wears out (assuming it is a lower quality piece of foam), or look at experimenting with a similar thickness of a good quality of memory foam to replace the polyurethane foam, which of course would be going in a different direction of surface comfort. This is all part of a DIY mattress, where you'll probably have some leftover parts as you experiment. Just make sure that whatever material you choose is of a better quality so yo'll have the best chance of a longer comfort life.


Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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