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Torn between two latex mattress Manufacturers (Zenhaven vs Foam Sweet Foam)

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18 Feb 2018 18:52 #1 by sweetandsourkiwi
Hello! I apologize I could not figure out how to post a new thread.

I have exhaustively researched what mattress might best suit me—a 135lb, single female side-sleeper with severe fibromyalgia—and have narrowed it down to the Zenhaven or the 13" Foam Sweet Foam with 1 or 2 Talalay Layers.

I did go mattress shopping and the only bed to wow me was the Pure Talalay Bliss Beautiful, although I felt like I was sagging just a bit (and the Nature was too hard. The Nutrition was not in stock.) I need to keep it about half that cost, though.

It seems Zenhaven and FSF both use the same excellent grades of latex and wool and the major difference in construction that the Zenhaven has "zoning" (or is it just marketing??) which is sucking me in a bit as I felt a tiny bit of sag on the PTB Beautiful. (I want my spine to be straight like in a commercial!) That, and the return on FSF (if needed! Sounds like they have less than 1% compared to ZH's 5%) might involve me trying to stuff all the layers back in boxes vs. paying the $99 to have the ZH hauled away. It's unclear how much this shipping might be if needed, but I'm thinking past $99 for over 100lbs of material?

Right now the cost is virtually identical from the 13" FSF to the 10" Zenhaven, thanks to the PD sale. The 3 extra inches do sound plush, but do they really do anything for a person of 135lbs? I see that most people order the 4 layer, but I wonder if 3" of Talalay topping might even be too much vs ZH's 1.5.

I'm not looking forward to assembling the bed as the pain keeps me fairly inactive and I will have to get help, but I do like that FSF seems to be a smaller company with a longer track record, more certifications, etc. It also seems helpful (but also overwhelming) that the bed is so adjustable if it's really not working out (although I've heard ZH sends a topper if needed). Then again, I have concerns as I've heard negative things about "ministacking".

Finally, while there are a lot of reviews on the Zenhaven, there's little on FSF. I don't have a good sense for motion control, cooling, or anything like that, but I imagine if they're the same materials and the feelable ones are all from Talalay Global...should be the same?

Argh, I know I've got it down to two great options but it feels like such a monumental decision! Any tie-breaking thoughts I should consider?

Hoping to make this decision too as I've devoted the last few days to research and the sale ends soon—thanks!

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19 Feb 2018 22:33 #2 by Phoenix
Hi sweetandsourkiwi.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :)

I have exhaustively researched what mattress might best suit me—a 135lb, single female side-sleeper with severe fibromyalgia—and have narrowed it down to the Zenhaven or the 13" Foam Sweet Foam with 1 or 2 Talalay Layers.


You selected two products using good quality and durable materials. I am sorry to hear about your preexisting condition ... but you are certainly in a good position with final choices that are between "good and good". As you probably are aware Foam Sweet Foam is one of the manufacturing Trusted Members of our site and like all the members here I think very highly of and consider them to be among the "best of the best" in the industry. They are very knowledgeable and always ready to guide their customers to make the best possible choice.

It seems Zenhaven and FSF both use the same excellent grades of latex and wool and the major difference in construction that the Zenhaven has "zoning" (or is it just marketing??) which is sucking me in a bit as I felt a tiny bit of sag on the PTB Beautiful.


Zoning systems can certainly be useful and well worth considering for people that have more difficulty finding a mattress with the right "balance" between comfort/pressure relief (under the shoulders especially) and support/alignment (under the hips/pelvis especially) or who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to "match" to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. There is more about zoning in this article and in post #11 here and the additional posts it links to but the only way to know whether any specific mattress (zoned or otherwise) will be a good match for you in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP will be based on careful testing or your own personal experience.

The 3 extra inches do sound plush, but do they really do anything for a person of 135lbs? I see that most people order the 4 layer, but I wonder if 3" of Talalay topping might even be too much vs ZH's 1.5.


The main benefit of a thicker latex mattress is that it can be more adaptable for heavier weights and multiple sleeping positions. It will compress from softer to firmer more gradually which means that there is more "range" of compression without the mattress becoming too firm for heavier weights (or parts of the body). In your case it is probably a matter of preference rather than "need", but in the large majority of cases ... 8" - 9" of latex is easily enough to include the combination softer layers (or sometimes sections) for pressure relief and firmer layers for support that most people of average or even higher weights would need.

Finally, while there are a lot of reviews on the Zenhaven, there's little on FSF.


I would be cautious about using reviews on a specific mattress (either positive or negative) or review sites in general as a reliable source of information or guidance about how you will feel on the same mattress or how suitable or how durable a mattress may be for you. In many if not most cases they can be more misleading than helpful, because a mattress that would be a perfect choice for one person or even a larger group of people in terms of comfort, firmness, and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your own Personal preferences) may be completely unsuitable for someone else to sleep on (even if they are in a similar weight range). In other words ... reviews or other people's experiences, in general, won't tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or "value" of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here ).

"Recommendations" do much more harm than good by encouraging consumers to believe that their recommendation or the “feedbacks” of others is all that they need to find a suitable and good quality/value mattress, which absolves the consumer of engaging in any critical thinking or educated analysis of a product.

I don't have a good sense for motion control, cooling, or anything like that, but I imagine if they're the same materials and the feelable ones are all from Talalay Global...should be the same? [/url]


It is important to take into account that all the layers in a mattress work together and will affect its feel and performance. All the layers and materials of the two mattresses you are considering aren't the same, and the design is different for each mattress …. every difference between two mattresses can either have a cumulative effect or an offsetting effect that is very difficult for even a knowledgeable and experienced online manufacturer or retailer to predict how will play out for each individual. It can be surprising to many people how different they can feel (especially when most people only pay attention only to the ILD numbers and surface feel of a mattress and not to all the other specs or components that can make a significant difference in how a mattress feels and performs).

The consensus with some of the more knowledgeable people in the industry who tried the Zenheaven and with whom I spoke say the product tends to run a little bit on the firmer side as opposed to their word description of the plushness, but of course even with industry experts we have to take into consideration that it is a personal preference and opinion and that only your testing will be the most reliable way to determine suitability.

Argh, I know I've got it down to two great options but it feels like such a monumental decision! Any tie-breaking thoughts I should consider?


The choice between good and good is not always easy. You may wish to analyze each of your finalists through the lens of your condition and the possibility of fine-tuning the system in case your choice doesn’t turn out as well as you would have hoped ...I would look at the options you have after the purchase to make changes to the mattress (either by rearranging or exchanging layers, exchanging the mattress itself, or returning the mattress for a refund and starting all over again with the insights you have gained from the "wrong" choices) can be a much more important part of a purchase. This is especially true for those that are more sensitive and have a narrower "range" for a mattress that will work well or them.

I would certainly encourage you to call each of your finalists and have a more detailed phone conversation to help "talk you through" the specifics of their mattress, the properties, the "feel", and the construction that may be the best "match" for you based on the information you provide them and the "averages" of other customers that are similar to you. In the end, the final choice is still yours based on what you believe to be the most suitable mattress for you based on all of the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you.

Hoping to make this decision too as I've devoted the last few days to research and the sale ends soon—thanks!


Generally giving into a sense of urgency because of “sales” may do more harm than good when it comes to suitability. Sales come and go and in my opinion they are mostly fake and are about the illusion of saving money than they are about reality. While it's not possible to make a blanket statement about sales because each retailer or manufacturer can be different, I would keep in mind that the better manufacturers and retailers don't generally "negotiate" (see post #6 here ) or have "fake sales" based on the time of year or holidays (see the guidelines here and post #5 here ). While they may occasionally have sales with smaller discounts or sell floor models at a reduced price, I would treat retailers or manufacturers that negotiate their prices or have "major holiday sales" with huge discounts as a red flag because manufacturers or retailers that sell good quality/value mattresses don't need to negotiate or have "fake sales" to create a false sense of urgency and they generally sell good quality/value mattresses every day of the year at prices that are already very reasonable. Some online manufacturers do have ongoing rotating "sales" that change their name but the specifics of the sale tend to be similar.

I'm looking forward to finding out what you end up deciding ... and of course, any additional comments or questions you may have along the way that I or any of the Expert members of the site can help with.

Phoenix

Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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01 Mar 2018 21:39 #3 by sweetandsourkiwi
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply Phoenix! I did reach out to both companies, and got more human interaction from FSF. They were great, but ultimately the set up was going to be too hard for me in my current condition, and if a return was needed, impossible.

My Zenhaven arrived today and it's not love at first test, but I'm willing to give it a try for a while and consider bugging them for a topper if it comes to that. The pressure under the shoulder feels too strong. It didn't have the immediate "ahhh" factor of any of the Pure Talalay Bliss beds, that's for sure...I was hopeful but ultimately not surprised. I think it maybe could with a topper. It feels a lot firmer than the many sites that list it as a 4.5. As in, it gives enough that I feel fairly aligned, but the feeling under my hip and shoulder is one of pressure, not weightlessness.

I see what you are saying on the sales...it appears many of the "President's Day" sales are still in full swing (I revisited several sites to help my Dad choose a bed).

One thing I considered after I bought the bed...my major motivation was two fold: to find a great bed for side sleeping, and to find a non-toxic option. But, it occurred to me afterwards that I probably could have gotten a hunk of polyurethane-laced, fire-retardant doused mattress, then encased it in a good mattress protector to keep the "nasties" inside. I feel like I sacrificed some of the side sleeping comfort to get all-natural when maybe that wasn't necessary.

But, really gotta try it to say! I will report back. Thank you for your help! I certainly agree trying and buying is the best way to learn. I knew I might have been picky, sorta wish I'd started on the "free returns" end of the spectrum (where most of the options are cheaper anyway) but I felt reasonably sure I'd like this one...

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02 Mar 2018 08:12 #4 by sweetandsourkiwi
Oh man. I think I've made a grave mistake.

I took *5 days* off of work to devote to careful research on mattresses—here, in stores, and elsewhere online. I generally sleep okay in hotels and on guest beds, so while I definitely think there are differences between mattresses, I had a hard time telling most of the ones in the stores apart in any sort of meaningful way and figured anything new would be an improvement on my old mattress.

My old mattress was a Simmons Beautyrest Angelique handed down from my parents' second home (which sounds fancy but was part of a multi-location job.) It had been slept on for about 26 weekends. When I got it, the pillowtop was pretty impacted and overall the bed was a little saggy, but quite fluffy and poofy. I slept on it for about 7 years until I just couldn't deny that the pillowtop was completely compressed and my hip was digging in enough that I was making a v-shape from head to toe. It had started to feel saggy but pressure-y and I figured it was time to replace it. I did sleep well though—asleep within minutes, one bathroom break, waking up rested (as rested as you get with fibro) 8-9 hours later. But, I figured misalignment could contribute to my pain issues.

At the stores I loved the feel of the Pure Talalay Bliss beds, although the Beautiful model felt way too saggy...like it would be comfy but not supportive. The rep at Zenhaven told me their bed would be a little firmer and made from the same material, which sounded perfect. I also was interested in a non-toxic aspect for a variety of reasons, although I will take something toxic if it makes me sleep. Not sleeping is toxic too.

I disliked the dead feel of the memory foam beds I tried in store, and the rest (hybrids) all sort of felt like variations on a theme. I liked a pillowtop feel, but was wary of it breaking down before the bed did.

I was determined to be a good customer and give the Zenhaven a fair shot, but 10 minutes into going to bed last night I just didn't feel like I could make it another 10. (Didn't have another option, though.) I felt hard pressure on my hip and shoulder and no support under my waist. Is this bed just NOT for side sleepers? It didn't feel "luxury plush" at all. I didn't feel entirely stable on my side either, like I had to hold myself in that position more than I did on my old bed.

I finally fell asleep after an hour, woke up every hour for 4 hours, and then thought, I'm so uncomfortable I'll just get up. Instead, I realized I'd be way too exhausted today, and pulled out a narrow strip of egg crate I use for camping. This made the bed more bearable and I drifted off for an extra hour or two. I couldn't wait to get out of bed this morning. I'm quite sore, although not in the agony I expected for how uncomfortable I felt.

I'm not sure if I can do the adjustment period. How long do I have to give it? This bed felt horrible after 10 minutes and just as horrible waking up. I can't believe they only have a 5% return rate...how can people stand this? What is wrong with me? It feels so different, so much worse than anything I gravitated to in a store. I don't see how I'll get used to it or how it could break in enough.

I don't even know where to start over...this choice was so very considered and I did such a bad job! If this is a "soft bed" (considered 4.5 on most scales)...what do I need? If this is a high-end luxury bed...will the other ones be even worse? Are you just supposed to put a topper on everything these days? This bed felt like it had no top, no... "fluff factor." Part of me wonders if this makes sense from a durability standpoint, but is like wearing the sole of a shoe without the insert...

The one thing that gives me a little hope is the clerk at our mattress mill. She said if she chooses a bed that feels good to her body right away, her body doesn't feel so good waking up. If she chooses one that feels a little too firm, her body feels great waking up. Maybe I could adjust into that? I don't know. How long do I really need to give this? I thought the adjustment period would be a thing, but not like a torture thing.

Thanks for tolerating my distress! I'm sleep deprived and really feeling emotional about this...getting sleep to a good place is so key to a fibro sufferer and the thought of my perfectly comfy (albeit quite shot) old bed sitting in a landfill right now is just killing me. Although I'm trying to tell myself it would be quite gross at this point with 7-9 years of dust, mites, etc...

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03 Mar 2018 01:42 #5 by Phoenix
Hi sweetandsourkiwi.

You are welcome!

Sorry to hear that you find the Zenhaven mattress uncomfortable especially as you had such high expectations.

. But, it occurred to me afterwards that I probably could have gotten a hunk of polyurethane-laced, fire-retardant doused mattress, then encased it in a good mattress protector to keep the "nasties" inside.


Of course, you could go with a DIY option if you have the inclination to experiment with this, but .but it seems that you have a bit of a learning curve ahead of you. Generally I would strongly suggest avoiding the temptation of trying to design your own mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) and instead work closely with the retailers and manufacturers that are of interest to you and use careful testing and feedback from your own body along with the expertise each of them has about their own mattresses to help you make your best choices. Your body doesn't understand specs ... only what I call PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences).

The foams within a mattress are not fire retardant “doused” , in fact, some of the more green mattress options never use fire retardant chemicals. What is required is that a mattress pass the 16 CFR 1632 and 1633 fire regulations with or without the use of fire retardant chemicals (the method of passing the regulations isn't specified in the regulations). The most common method used to pass the regulations is the use of inherent fire barrier fabrics that are either quilted into the cover or are wrapped around the inner materials of the mattress like a sock. There is a lot of misleading information in the industry about fire retardants and "chemicals" ranging from "fear mongering" on one side to completely minimizing fire retardants from being an issue at all on the other. Like most issues that arouse strong feelings or controversy, the most reliable and "accurate" information tends to be in between both polar extremes. Also encasing a mattress in a protector won’t stop the VOCs from being emitted

It didn't have the immediate "ahhh" factor of any of the Pure Talalay Bliss beds, that's for sure...I was hopeful but ultimately not surprised. I think it maybe could with a topper. It feels a lot firmer than the many sites that list it as a 4.5

I don't even know where to start over...this choice was so very considered and I did such a bad job! If this is a "soft bed" (considered 4.5 on most scales)...what do I need? If this is a high-end luxury bed...will the other ones be even worse?


There is no scientific definition, yard stick, or unit measurement of plushness that is repeatable in any circumstances and using a precise rating of plushness (such as 4.5) across products with different materials from different manufacturers is very misleading and generally speaking meaningless as plushness or firmness is very personal and relative to the person that is doing the testing. This is also why you cannot expect that the Zenheaven to feel the same as the Talalay Bliss or any other mattress unless they use exactly the same materials and components.

I also was interested in a non-toxic aspect for a variety of reasons, although I will take something toxic if it makes me sleep. Not sleeping is toxic too.


As far as the non-toxicity goes “Toxic” is a term for poisonous substances produced within living cells or organisms, although the term is often used in the mattress industry (and often part of some “fear-mongering” campaigns), but I think I understand your point. Most people that are looking for “non-toxic” ( toxicity is dose-dependent ) materials are usually concerned most with "safety".

There is quite a bit of confusing information available online about toxicity, safety and organic, and there is more about the different types of organic and safety certifications such as Oeko-tex, Eco-Institut, Greenguard Gold, C2C, and CertiPUR-US in post #2 here , and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and there are also some comments in post #42 here that can help you decide whether an organic certification is important to you for environmental, social, or personal reasons, or whether a "safety" certification is enough, and what those certifications can mean to determine whether the contents of any particular mattress are “safe enough” for you.

Latex is generally able to meet more stringent standards for VOCs and harmful substances, and if you decide to move in that direction,

I felt hard pressure on my hip and shoulder and no support under my waist. Is this bed just NOT for side sleepers? It didn't feel "luxury plush" at all. I didn't feel entirely stable on my side either, like I had to hold myself in that position more than I did on my old bed.


Your description shows that you are not sinking in as deeply as you would need to, and not that you are “not having support under your waist”. When you sink in more you often feel more pressure, which people often mistakenly label support. Deep support is maintaining a neutral spinal alignment which is preventing from bottoming out.

I realized I'd be way too exhausted today, and pulled out a narrow strip of egg crate I use for camping. This made the bed more bearable and I drifted off for an extra hour or two.


The fact that you felt better with the egg crate strip on top shows that you need a bit more plushness but again only you can determine the level of plushness you feel comfortable with.

I can't believe they only have a 5% return rate...how can people stand this? What is wrong with me? It feels so different, so much worse than anything I gravitated to in a store. I don't see how I'll get used to it or how it could break in enough.


A low return rate or what other people say won't tell you much if anything about the suitability, quality, durability, or "value" of a mattress for any particular person (see post #13 here ), and I recommend that you avoid considering such comments as any sort of a reliable indicator of the appropriateness of any particular product for your needs. With any mattress purchase I would truly encourage you to focus on the product itself, quality of componentry and your own needs and preferences and not on what others may or may not feel on the same mattress. Reviews or other people’s comments can be very misleading

The one thing that gives me a little hope is the clerk at our mattress mill. She said if she chooses a bed that feels good to her body right away, her body doesn't feel so good waking up. If she chooses one that feels a little too firm, her body feels great waking up. Maybe I could adjust into that?


The clerk at the mattress mill is wise and listening to her body. You've only had the mattress one night - I'd strongly discourage you from making an assessment after only one night of sleeping on the product. All mattresses will soften slightly with use, even latex and the covering and the non-woven fabric wrapping the springs, although the amount will vary based upon materials being used. Your body will also go through a period of retrogression where you'll adjust to the new product as well. Keep in mind that a mattress can take a few weeks (up to 90 days in some cases) to break in and a new mattress is almost always firmer than a mattress that has been in the showroom for a while and has gone though it's initial softening period.

To begin with I would suggest that you give it more time and even if in the end the product turns out to be unsuitable, you can use what you learned with your future purchase. You’d be surprised how much you can learn while allowing for the adjustment and break in period.

It feels so different, so much worse than anything I gravitated to in a store. I don't see how I'll get used to it or how it could break in enough.


It feels different from what you tried because in the store you tried Bliss and you ordered Zenhaven and unless all materials and construction are the same for both mattresses you won’t be experiencing the same feel. It may be that you won’t get used to it or that even after the product breaks in you will still find it uncomfortable, but in the process you would gain many insights of what is right for you for a future purchase, then I would do a hard reset and start from ground zero with evaluating the specifics of the componentry of any mattress that you are considering such as materials used, layers, and thickness, ILDs. When assessing any product, also be sure that you find out information listed here so you can compare the quality of the materials and components to the durability guidelines here to make sure there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

I would certainly suggest to you to rely on the advice of the manufacturer themselves as they are much more familiar with their own mattress designs and materials than anyone else (including me) and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your local testing to make suggestions based on the "averages" of other customers that may be similar to you. The more accurate and detailed the information you provide them the better you will help them to help you make the best possible choices out of the options they have available. Of course the options you have available with each retailer or manufacturer (or with a particular mattress) and your ability to exchange layers or the mattress itself or use other forms of fine-tuning after your purchase or the return policy may also be an important part of your personal value equation or to offset the risk that can go with any online purchase.

If you need to start again I would still read through the mattress shopping tutorial here (there is a condensed version of it at the end of that post) which includes all the basic information, steps, and guidelines that can help you make the best possible choice Two of the most important links in the tutorial that I would especially make sure you've read are [url=]post #2 here [/url]which has more about the different ways to choose a suitable mattress (either locally or online) that is the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort", firmness, and PPP that can help you assess and minimize the risks of making a choice that doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for and[url=] post #13 here [/url]which has more about the most important parts of the "value" of a mattress purchase which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well he will sleep), durability (how long he will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on all the parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price of course and the options you have available after a purchase if your choice doesn't turn out as well as you hoped for).

I hope that this is only about the adjustment period and you won't have to look for another product. Keep us posted.

Phoenix

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03 Mar 2018 11:23 #6 by NeonCat
Sorry to hijack the thread, but I also cannot figure out how to start a new topic. Foam Sweet Foam is not one of the "Talk To The Expert" choices, and I have already talked with them by phone. Here is my issue/question:
We are almost to the end of the 120 day return window on our Foam Sweet Foam talalay mattress. Initially the mattress felt too firm for me. Our original configuration was:
XF, F, M, S on my side and XF, F, M, M on my husband's side. At the suggestion of FSF, we have tried unzipping the encasement and moving around layers. In addition, we added a topper and purchased an additional blended talalay layer (ILD 14) from KTT Enterprises. My husband has been fine with every configuration, so I will focus on my side only. I am 5' and weigh apx. 110 pounds, relatively proportionate. I have scoliosis, but it is not extreme. The most recent configuartion on my side of the bed is XF, M, N2, N1, with the 14 ILD topper over the encasement (the 14 blended is inside the topper, which originally had a higher ILD). We have a St Dormier cover over the FSF encasement, but the topper rests on top of that. The topper cover is a stretchy one - Pure Talalay Bliss. I have had difficulty sleeping since we've received our new bed, and continue to "toss and turn," have trouble falling asleep, and wake with pain, especially in my back, shoulders and neck. Prior to our latex journey, we slept on a soft-sided waterbed. We visited some of the bricks and mortar mattress stores in our area prior to purchasing from FSF, and the consensus seemed to be that latex would be our best bet when transitioning from a waterbed. We were disinclined to buy another waterbed as we are aging and felt a more traditional mattress would be easier for us to deal with. However, we must now decide whether to return the bed to FSM and get something else (perhaps a waterbed), or continue trying to manipulate the latex layers to find that almost-perfect fit. I lurked and spent hours reading here on TMU prior to purchasing a bed, feeling I did not need to actually post an inquiry. Now I am at a place where I need expert advice! Thanks so much.

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03 Mar 2018 16:35 #7 by sweetandsourkiwi
Thanks as always for your detail, Phoenix! Lots of wisdom here.

A little clarification...I was not saying I was going to build a mattress...rather, wondering if the "safety" aspect could have been achieved by simply wrapping any new non-memory foam mattress in a good mattress protector that would contain any cancerous compounds. It seems most of the concerns (outside flame retardants) surround inhaling particulate dust from foam breakdown which then the lungs cannot shed. (Valid or not? Unsure. I feel like I could sleep on the safest bed ever and still be surrounded by carcinogens from all sorts of sources in my day-to-day.) I'm still curious if "wrapping it up" would make a mattress safer...although it wouldn't solve my desire to tread a little lighter on the environment with a biodegradable product...it sounds like it wouldn't in the case of VOC's, but my understanding is that these are pretty low on most of the $1k+ options anyway.

Phoenix, I didn't quite understand the difference here..."Your description shows that you are not sinking in as deeply as you would need to, and not that you are “not having support under your waist”. " It feels like I'm sagging at the waist, so don't I want the bed to hold up that section in a neutral alignment? I agree I need to sink a bit more. I did have concerns shopping as a 135# woman that most beds would skew towards the median weight.

I've read many of these posts which is why there was such a lament over choosing wrong...I guess what's missing is the test factor. But how many mattresses can one person have delivered in their lifespan? These four hour delivery windows, man... ;)

I called the manufacturer yesterday in a sleep deprived panic and they reminded me the bed will break in a bit more, as will I. They are sending out some sort of topper, which I feel will help...but at the point I'm topping an expensive mattress, I question the value of the money I just spent. It almost seems as if it would make more sense to get an inexpensive mattress and a nice topper? How much work is the mattress doing under four inches of fluff?

I will keep trying the bed as long as I can stand to, but it's really painful...like trying to wear shoes that are two sizes too small. Last night I added a duvet under the sheet to get a little more ploof. The rep said even if I used the topper, I would still be helping break in the bed. So there's that.

I think what I'm realizing is that most hotel and guest beds have some sort of pillowtop. Is it now the thing to sell this piece separately? It makes sense as it degrades faster and could be replaced...

I don't know quite how to ask this question, but I want my spine to be lined up like in the commercials. How do I find a bed that does that?

Thanks for the help...you weren't kidding about the learning curve. I wish it could be more like getting sized for a shoe...

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04 Mar 2018 01:30 #8 by Phoenix
Hi NeonCat.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :)

I have had difficulty sleeping since we've received our new bed, and continue to "toss and turn," have trouble falling asleep, and wake with pain, especially in my back, shoulders and neck. Prior to our latex journey, we slept on a soft-sided waterbed.


As much as I wish, unfortunately I wouldn’t be able to diagnose what might be your issue or the cause of your discomfort, as there are entirely too many personal variables involved, including items such as your BMI, somatotype, sleeping style, levels of flexibility, core strength, sensitivities, and preexisting conditions. All I can speak of would be the general reasons for certain “symptoms” when sleeping upon a mattress (see post #2 here , but the first step in finding this would always be to determine whether your "symptoms" are from pressure issues, alignment issues, or "feel" issues ... all of which could have different solutions. It may also be that you do not like and cannot get used to the feel of latex and like the waterbed

What you describe can have many causes. Either the deep XF layer is too hard for you, or there is too much extra plushness on top, or that you may need to reevaluate your pillow to keep your head and neck in good alignment in all your sleeping positions as this would have a direct impact on tour neck and shoulder. There is more about choosing a pillow in the pillow topic here and the other sources of information and the posts it links to that may be helpful.

Some other forum posts that talk about fine-tuning a mattress and may help you recognize or "diagnose" the underlying cause of different types of "symptoms", pain, or discomfort that may be connected to a mattress include ...

Post #2 (this is the primary reference post for different "symptoms" that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress) / Post #45 (this is particularly worth reading as well) / Post #2 / Post #6 / Post #6 / Post #4 / Post #7 / Post #7 / Post #18

However, we must now decide whether to return the bed to FSM and get something else (perhaps a waterbed), or continue trying to manipulate the latex layers to find that almost-perfect fit. I lurked and spent hours reading here on TMU prior to purchasing a bed, feeling I did not need to actually post an inquiry. Now I am at a place where I need expert advice! Thanks so much.


I am afraid that my advice or any other expert’s advice could not help you more than your thorough data collection and conclusions from the trial and error process you’ve been going through and that short of gaining a clear understanding of what is really going on and where the discomfort originates your best source of guidance is the advice from FSF as they would have much more information about their mattresses and how they respond to people that may be similar to you and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on the mattresses, and the results of your testing when rearranging all the layers for your side of the mattress …. to make suggestions as to what to do next.

I hope you manage to pinpoint the issue(s) and find a good solution. I’d be interested in what FSF recommends to you in this situation and any other insights you may gain.

Phoenix

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05 Mar 2018 14:46 - 05 Mar 2018 14:47 #9 by NeonCat
Thank you for taking the time to read my message and for your thoughtful reply. After several attempts at reconfiguring the latex layers, adding a topper, and purchasing various pillows, etc., we are not confident that the bed will ever be the right fit for us. As such, we are now in the process of returning the bed to FSF. Again, thank you for your time.
Warm regards,
NeonCat
Last edit: 05 Mar 2018 14:47 by NeonCat.

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10 Mar 2018 21:55 #10 by sweetandsourkiwi
Night 9 on the Zenhaven, and I've now been suffering a pinched neck nerve for the past 8 days...it is excruciating. My shoulder feels jammed under my ear unless I use two pillows, which creates a different problem...it's like I just don't sink in. And this is with a $20 Target topper and a duvet under the sheet to get some semblance of not-concrete. 2 more nights until the topper from the manufacturer arrives.

If I like it okay with the topper, it sure seems like an expensive, well, topper platform. Currently toughing this out, but I missed a fair bit of work last week and will miss more next week if this pain continues. Eyeballing the Tomorrow Sleep, Casper Wave and Purple as possible next steps. I don't love memory foam and I don't love the idea of bringing a ton of plastic and foam into my home, but I also don't love spending two grand a bed that is now keeping me from making money at work. These three appear to be rated highly for side sleepers, spinal alignment, and pressure relief. (Yes, I have looked at the shopping tutorial but I'm not sure how to apply it without being able to test every bed, or with the usual customer service staff not being that well informed, so gotta look at some subjective ratings, I guess.)

The good news is that there is no low back pain. And customer support was responsive (although I feel that they could have guided me better when I reached out with a pretty clear idea of what I needed.) However, none of this is worth a pinched nerve. Granted, I have chronic pain. But it's not usually THIS bad!

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