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Narrowed down to Latex… how to decide on appropriate firmness choice?

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10 Jun 2019 14:21 #21 by Light Sleeper
Hi Sensei,

We went and tested out some Dunlop latex and Talalay latex beds yesterday. It was quite helpful.

I have a couple questions....
1. Regarding the manufacturer of the organic latex mattresses sold by MFC. the manufacturer name is Nature's Embrace. They make the Maoli and Unison latex mattresses. Nature's Embrace has their own website where people can purchase mattresses directly from them online, but the Maoli and Unison mattresses are not listed for sale on Nature's Embrace website. I noticed that Nature's Embrace is not listed on The Mattress Underground as one of your trusted members. Do you know if Nature's Embrace has a good reputation?

2. The mattress cover for the Maoli mattress is made of 40% Tencel and 60% polyester. I contacted MFC and asked them if the polyester content could cause a problem with the breath-ability of the mattress. They responded that they have not had any issues with it. Have you ever heard of any negative issues with a Tencel cover?

Thanks!

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10 Jun 2019 21:55 #22 by gardenguy
Thanks very much for the response Sensei !

That is interesting that pillows are not measured in ILD. But the fact that a firm was once measured at 9 ild tells me something. If I made a pillow with scrap 20 ILD it will be quite a firm pillow, this may work out great though because I can make the pillow thinner (3 inch 100% natural talalay) since my head will stay up easier than a typical pillow. Most pillows I have tried in general do not seem supportive enough, including some trials like the leesa foam pillow and a few shredded memory foam.

It does sound like Ken is going to send me a scrap piece for a DIY. But to answer your question, the only two form latex pillows I tried so far were both from Brooklyn Bedding, their soft and firm version talalay pillows. I sent the soft back because it felt like my head was bottoming out, but when I switched it for the firm it was not that much firmer honestly. I tried a dunlop once and it would have been the perfect firmness but the smell of dunlop is something I could never tolerate. So possibly finding something which matches the firmness of that dunlop but in talalay, probably me going up to 20 ILD is going to be closer than any talalay pillow on the market I am thinking. Sensei, do you happen to know if 100% natural talalay pillows are firmer than Brooklyn Bedding's blended ones?

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11 Jun 2019 08:53 #23 by gardenguy
P.S.-
If Ken cannot send anything out I may still take you up on your offer to help me find another supplier of a pillow size scrap piece of 100% natural talalay, Sensei. Thank you for reaching out. I will see if I hear back from him by the end of the week.

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11 Jun 2019 10:19 #24 by Sensei
Hey gardenguy,

You are on the right track with the 3" piece. totally get where you are going with that...to try, of course, it all depends. It's interesting that you tried the plush and firm....but for many many years, the medium represented 90% of the sales...I understand why companies have plush and firm...and I am surprised the "firm" was not much firmer...could be a number of things.

The 100% natural Talalay pillows are not firmer...actually they are softer when comparing apples to apples....for instance, is two standard pillows one blend, one 100% both weighed 2.0lbs, the 100% natural will feel softer. With the formulation and Talalay process, its a fact that they use "more latex weight" to hit the same ILD.

Interestingly about ILD is that the two Talalay companies are the only latex companies that test every core for ILD, Dunlop companies sell all latex as weight/density...of course they give you the "ranges" but its not actually tested on each piece....just a little nugget, not really relevant to your pillow.

Thanks
Sensei

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12 Jun 2019 06:17 - 12 Jun 2019 06:21 #25 by MFC
Hi Light Sleeper,

I have a couple questions....
1. Regarding the manufacturer of the organic latex mattresses sold by MFC. the manufacturer name is Nature's Embrace. They make the Maoli and Unison latex mattresses. Nature's Embrace has their own website where people can purchase mattresses directly from them online, but the Maoli and Unison mattresses are not listed for sale on Nature's Embrace website. I noticed that Nature's Embrace is not listed on The Mattress Underground as one of your trusted members. Do you know if Nature's Embrace has a good reputation?


Nature's Embrace only sells GOLS certified organic dunlop latex, which is highly rated in the mattress industry and is used by reputable manufacturers in Canada such as Obasan, Greensleep, and Dormio amongst others.

The Maoli and Unison are not sold online by Nature's Embrace for two reasons.
1- They are made especially for MFC according to our specifications.
2- Since we are an online store and this allows us to sell for less, we do not want to compete with their brick and mortar stores on price.

2. The mattress cover for the Maoli mattress is made of 40% Tencel and 60% polyester. I contacted MFC and asked them if the polyester content could cause a problem with the breath-ability of the mattress. They responded that they have not had any issues with it. Have you ever heard of any negative issues with a Tencel cover?


WHAT IS TENCEL
Tencel fibre is the brand name for lyocell fibres manufactured by the house of Lenzing.

Tencel is a type of rayon cellulose fibre extracted from the wood pulp of sustainably grown Eucalyptus trees. Unlike other forms of Rayon, Tencel is manufactured in a closed loop cycle that recycles nearly 100% of all the organic compounds used during the manufacturing process. The patented system has earned them numerous accolades including the EU’s European Award for the Environment.

Tencel is an ideal fiber for latex mattresses due to it’s sustainability, strength and moisture absorbing properties.

CERTIFICATIONS
Third party Tencel certifications include:

Oeko-Tex Standard 100(Confidence in textiles – tested for harmful substances)
USDA BioPreferred (certified 100% bio-based)
FSC (Forest Stewardship Council)
European Eco-Label (environmentally friendly)
Din Certo (compostable)
Vincotte (compostable)
US BPI (compostable)
EcoCert (product life cycle)

BENEFITS OF TENCEL
Ecological Friendly
Accounting for the entire life cycle, Tencel is one of the most environmentally friendly fibres in the world. Derived from the wood pulp of sustainably grown Eucalyptus trees, the closed loop manufacturing process recycles nearly 100% of organic solvents used in the manufacturing process.

High Tensile Strength
Whether dry or damp, Tencel fibres retain their strength. These durable fibres can withstand decades of use making them an idea compliment to latex.

Moisture Absorbent
Tencel fibres absorb moisture into their unique cell structure until it can be evaporated away.

Soft to the Touch
The surface of Tencel is smoother than silk. Tencel is commonly used in face masks for the cosmetic industry due to its silky-smooth surface and absorbent properties.

Hygienic
The condition that allow bacteria to grow are greatly reduced due to the moisture absorbing properties of Tencel.

If you prefer a mattress cover that does not contain polyester, then we suggest you look at our Unison Organic Latex Mattress or Presto customizable organic mattress which are made with GOLS certified organic dunlop latex, and covered with a quilted virgin wool 100% organic cotton cover.

I forgot to mention that we have some concern with buying from MFC (even though they are thought highly of by The Mattress Underground) in that we are not able to 'test' their mattresses because they are nowhere near us. Does anyone know if there is a store in the Calgary are sells something similar to the Maoli? Also, MFC does not offer a sleep trial period and they do not allow a mattress to be returned if it doesn't work for us. It would be nice if we could have some assurance that the product we are thinking of purchasing would suit our needs.


Since we are an online store, we do not have any points of sale. This allows us to offer you great customer service and save you money.

If you need to try an organic dunlop latex to see how it feels, you can simply go to a mattress store that sells GOLS certified organic dunlop latex and try one in store. At that point you'll be able to do some comparative shopping online, since these mattresses are made with the same components (organic dunlop latex, organic cotton and wool) and all feel similar.

Furthermore our Presto Customizable Mattress offers 9-16 firmness options all in the same mattress.
Advantages of the Presto Customizable Mattress
-Makes mattress shopping a breeze! With up to 16 support and comfort options, in one mattress. (from soft to extra firm)
-Handy tailored top-zip cover, allows easy access to the loose foam layers inside your mattress, and holds them firmly in place.
-Simply rearrange the foam layers inside your mattress to personalize your comfort and support needs.
-If your comfort or support needs change in the future (due to illness, accident, or personal reasons), you can simply rearrange the foam layers in your mattress, or we can provide you with cost-effective layers to make the mattress feel, just the way you like!
-Should a layer prematurely wear out, or be ruined by a mishap, it can simply be replaced avoiding the hassle and cost of replacing the entire mattress. Resulting in less waste for our environment and more money in your pocket!
-Optimal mattress maintenance: By flipping the inner support layers annually, you renew and revitalize the entire mattress, whereas rotating a traditional mattress only helps maintain the top layers.
-No more time wasted trying and exchanging mattresses.
-Perfect for all sleepers; side, back and stomach.
-Made and shipped from Canada

Why we no longer accept returns:
MFC is dedicated to manufacturing quality memory foam and latex products through our use of quality materials and detailed craftsmanship. At MFC we do not sell used products (which includes all items on our website). For this reason, for hygienic concerns, and to avoid cross contamination, we feel that we have a moral and ethical responsibility to our customers to not re-sell used items and therefor are unable to accept returns or exchanges.

We accept exchanges only if the item is damaged at delivery and will cover all cost in the exchange process.

With such a policy in place we are able to guarantee the item you receive is brand new and has never been used by anyone else.

Furthermore we stand behind our products and your purchase is protected within our comprehensive limited warranties so that you can buy directly from us with confidence.

Are you sure you're buying a "new" mattress?
Did you know that mattresses and toppers are some of the only personal items that can be returned to the store after they have been used? Store do not accept returns on underwear, bras and other personal use items. But you can sleep nude in a bed for months, contaminate it with skin cells, hair, urine etc and return it if you're not happy with it!

What's worst is that it can be resold to you as new, because the Government of Canada has no legal obligation with respect to the sale of used mattresses and toppers. Yes, all mattresses by law must have a label that states “Contains New Material Only” this label was sown during the manufacturing process and has nothing to do with the condition of the mattress as being used or new!

What do stores do with returned mattresses?
If stores are not reselling your used mattress to someone else, then why do they require you to purchase a mattress protector to qualify for the trial period? Why do you need to use a mattress protector if the returned mattress will be disposed of?

Bed bugs can infiltrate a used mattress even with the use of a mattress protector. Furthermore they are extremely difficult to eradicate, and can spread into others mattresses and sofas around the house. These pest have become such a major health risk, that most charitable organizations will not accept used mattresses anymore.

Why choose a customizable mattress
In the last few years, we've seen more customers contact us to complain about mattresses they purchased only 2 or 3 years ago. They deplore the mediocre quality and sleep issues they have with their mattresses. The surprising fact, is that most bought them from a store that had a trial period, yet they remain unhappy with the choice they made. Actually most customers will be happy with any new mattress, as it's a significant improvement over a tired old mattress. However the real comfort issues appear long after the 90 day trial period.

For this reason we have developed the Presto which is a customizable mattress. The advantage is that you can fine tune your comfort and support preferences anytime you want. Discover this new ingenious mattress and stop playing the mattress trial and exchange game.

At MFC we are proud to sell only "new products"direct from the factory to you.

I hope this answers your questions, and offers you others options in your quest to find the mattress that's right for you.

All the best

Mario
Last edit: 12 Jun 2019 06:21 by MFC.

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12 Jun 2019 13:22 #26 by Light Sleeper
Thank you for this information. It was very helpful.

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23 Jun 2019 10:26 - 23 Jun 2019 10:36 #27 by theshrewdfool
I apologize if this isn't the right way to post my questions, but I didn't see a way to post a new topic and this topic seemed to closely match what I'm asking.

I've slowly been building my own latex mattress and I'm looking for (I think) a recommendation for a base layer firmness. I'm a 5'10" 160 lbs side sleeper. I currently have:

2" 14 ILD Talalay (still able to be returned)
3" 20 ILD Dunlop
3" 30 ILD Dunlop (still able to be returned)

When I place this setup directly on my foundation, I think I can feel the metal bars of the foundation and they create a pressure point on my hips. This seems to be worse in the center of the bed, so I'm wondering if one of my latex layers is softer/more worn in the center.

I've also used this setup on top of a flipped over Leesa mattress (polyfoam base on top), which seems to be lacking in support. Again, this is worse in the center of the bed. Until last night, I thought this was due to the Leesa, but now I'm leaning toward the 20 ILD Dunlop being worn out after only a year of use, but I still need to test this some more.

I'm unable to sleep on the latex+foundation setup (I tried this last night) and the setup with the Leesa mattress seems to be lacking in support. I think I need an additional base layer to replace the Leesa. Would another 3" 30 ILD Dunlop topper be a good choice or should I get something firmer? How would the firmness of a 38 or 44 ILD topper compare to the firmness of the foundation itself?

A sales rep from one of the MU partners recommended I just add an other 3" soft layer to my current setup, but that didn't sound right to me. Would anyone else second this advice?

If it helps, here's the progression of how I've been finding a mattress:
Leesa - far too firm
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop - much better, but still a little too firm
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop + 14 ILD Talalay - something seems off here, but not sure what. Possibly not enough support.
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop + 14 ILD Talalay + 30 ILD Dunlop - again, I think it's not supportive enough
Leesa + 20 ILD Dunlop + 30 ILD Dunlop - I think a bit too firm
20 ILD Dunlop + 14 ILD Talalay + 30 ILD Dunlop - very uncomfortable - i can feel the foundation under my hips

Thanks!
Last edit: 23 Jun 2019 10:36 by theshrewdfool.

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23 Jun 2019 19:45 #28 by Sensei
hey theshrewdfool,

Welcome to the mattress forum :).

Thanks for the great post, and the detailed information of the process you have used so far. Well done.

Just a couple of questions, maybe you mentioned it, how long have you had the Leesa? Which foundation did you get? Which Leesa platform bed are you referencing? Is the latex covered or foam only, what is the fabric you use, or is it just three toppers over the Leesa? And three over the foundation? Then the mattress pad? or sheets? What size mattress? Is the latex a blend, or 100% natural? The Dunlop latex from where? Natural or Blended?

Thanks for the post, I have some thoughts and probably some questions?

Plus soft ild's have to be above firmer, generally speaking, 14 ild has to be the very top or send it back for 19ild, it's useless if you don't use it on top. But let me know the other info, as it affects the feel of your set up, all these parts.

Thanks,
Sensei

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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23 Jun 2019 20:43 - 23 Jun 2019 20:47 #29 by theshrewdfool
I've had the Leesa for 3.5 years (queen size, and there was only one type available when I ordered it). I purchased it after suffering an injury and being in a lot of pain, and thinking my saggy Sealy wasn't helping. I fell for all the marketing about it being the best bed in a box, but it never became comfortable for me. The pain from the injury (mostly SI joint) became much less severe/consistent a few months after I added the 20 ILD 3" Dunlop topper sometime last year.

I opened the Leesa up a couple of weeks ago and flipped around the interior mattress components so the support Polyfoam layer is on top. I thought that if some of the lack of support I felt was due to wear on the Leesa comfort layers, this might help.

I have a Zinus foundation with 3" spacing between slats ( www.amazon.com/gp/product/B072F9SWDJ/ref..._title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ). Until May of last year, I had it on the foundation that came with my old Sealy mattress, which did not have 3" spacing. I have it on a frame that came with the Sealy mattress I bought in 2008.

The only thing covering the latex right now is a hypoallergenic protector and my sheets, so the latex is not fully enclosed. I plan to buy a stretch mattress cover when I've finalized all my layer choices. I've just been putting the toppers right on top of the Leesa mattress, and last night, right on top of the foundation. Would a wooden board be necessary, or is the 3" slat spacing good enough? Does that 3" spacing rule apply even for the narrow steel beams in the foundation I linked, or is that more for wider slats?

The 3" 20 ILD Dunlop was purchased last year on Amazon (I think it's from sleeponlatex and all natural). The 2" 14 ILD is blended Talalay and was purchased 3.5 weeks ago from Mayer Bedding and the 3" 30 ILD Natural Dunlop was purchased from SleepOnLatex 2 weeks ago (with a TMU discount code).

I have been using the 14 ILD topper as the very top layer. I did think of another question regarding the 2 Dunlop layers: how different should 20 ILD and 30 ILD feel when compressed between your fingers and thumb or between two palms? I feel very little difference. SleepOnLatex did confirm for me that the new topper I have is indeed a medium firmness (it had Q3M labels on the box and plastic wrap). Unfortunately, I don't have any of the packaging for the year old topper available. Is the difference only really noticeable when laying on it? The 14 ILD Talalay feels very different from the other two layers.
Last edit: 23 Jun 2019 20:47 by theshrewdfool.

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25 Jun 2019 08:35 #30 by Sensei
Hey theshrewdfool,

Wow, awesome information, thank you for adding the detail. It helps a lot.

I've had the Leesa for 3.5 years (queen size, and there was only one type available when I ordered it). I purchased it after suffering an injury and being in a lot of pain, and thinking my saggy Sealy wasn't helping. I fell for all the marketing about it being the best bed in a box, but it never became comfortable for me. The pain from the injury (mostly SI joint) became much less severe/consistent a few months after I added the 20 ILD 3" Dunlop topper sometime last year.



Noted on the original Leesa, I totally understand....if you only knew about TMU then :). Not surprised with the improvement of the Leesa with a 3" topper, plus much better pressure relief needed with pain.

I opened the Leesa up a couple of weeks ago and flipped around the interior mattress components so the support Polyfoam layer is on top. I thought that if some of the lack of support I felt was due to wear on the Leesa comfort layers, this might help.



This makes perfect sense, you never know, but best to build up some layers on top of the foam. You may end up buying a block of 1.8- 2.0lb polyfoam at some time. There are some decent online foam companies that can have this.

The only thing covering the latex right now is a hypoallergenic protector and my sheets, so the latex is not fully enclosed. I plan to buy a stretch mattress cover when I've finalized all my layer choices. I've just been putting the toppers right on top of the Leesa mattress, and last night, right on top of the foundation. Would a wooden board be necessary, or is the 3" slat spacing good enough? Does that 3" spacing rule apply even for the narrow steel beams in the foundation I linked, or is that more for wider slats?


It's perfectly fine to have the latex like this, it helps me to understand more about the feel of the mattress. As we reference the 3" spacing, most of the time it is based around wood foundations. It is especially an issue with all latex mattress. The wooden board would be ok, but it does have some complaints about retaining moisture, not breathable. Still, not a bad idea to see if it helps, but it will firm up the overall feel of the mattress noticeably when you add the wooden board.

I like the Zinus products, I own two of them myself, and if you end up polyfoam base, with latex layers, it will be ok. But the thinner metal bars, it makes me think the 3" spacing is not as applicable on this product. Just my instinct. If you do more latex...more weight, then you may want a 1-2" layer of polyfoam to work as a stabilizing base. But for your trials...it will work fine.

The latex is an interesting question, technically speaking, you should be able to lay your hand on it and tell the difference between 20 and 30 ILD. Hand, fingers, etc., sitting on it. Its hard to weigh toppers but it "seems" like they are very similar....which is still ok.

Dunlop and Talalay aren't directly comparable in terms of firmness using only ILD numbers because there are several factors that can affect how soft or firm a mattress (or an individual layer) feels besides just the ILD of the material (see post #4 here ) and Dunlop and Talalay that are the same thickness and ILD won't feel the same in terms of their firmness for most people because they have a different response curve and compression modulus (how quickly a material becomes firmer as you sink into it more deeply). There is more about the difference between Dunlop and Talalay in post #7 here .

The ILD of different materials or different types and blends of latex also aren't always directly comparable to each other (see post #6 here ) partly because ILD can be measured in different ways and partly because ILD isn't the only factor that affects the softness or firmness of a material so again using the ILD or other specifications of a particular layer or combination of layers as a reliable indication of how any mattress will "feel" or how firm it will feel to you compared to another mattress with a different combination of layers can sometimes be more misleading than helpful.

This seems to be worse in the center of the bed, so I'm wondering if one of my latex layers is softer/more worn in the center.



It is hard for me to say, the fact is that latex is not the "exact same" feel throughout the core, and with Dunlop process latex, latex liquid is extruded into a 6" height queen size mold, and then heat is added, and the vulcanization begins immediately. So depending on the specific company, the "center" of the core can be the last part of the piece to fully cure....and if some pieces are sold not fully cure, sometimes latex can soften / breakdown in the center. I have no idea without looking at the latex, but the SOL latex I know is top quality, the 20ild...you are a little less sure about.

Can you feel the difference in the center of the latex topper with your hand? Also, you can put an object...like a bowling ball (or another object), and see if it sinks more for either topper and for the center of the topper....if that is something you would want to try...this is poor mans ild test :).

Thanks, let me know if I missed anything.

Sensei

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
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