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27 Aug 2019 09:57 #11 by stmslpr
Thanks Phoenix! The brand is Berkeley Ergo. The initial bed I got was the Amsterdam:
Layers from top to bottom:
100% Organic Cotton outer fabric
100% Plein-Air French wool quilted to inside of outer fabric
Plein-Air - These sheep live outdoors year-round
Produces a more curly, longer fibre
Superior to mechanically crimped wool, does not matte down as easily
2" 100% Natural Talalay latex topper
Soft for buffering pressure points in hips and shoulders
Manufactured by Radium Foam BV in The Netherlands
6" 100% Natural Talalay latex core
7-zoned for correct ergonomics and pressure relief
Choice of Medium or Firm core
Queen and King size available with a different firmness for each sleeping partner
Manufactured by Radium Foam BV in The Netherlands

I had the soft 2” talalay layer on the top.
Basically after a variety of self tweeks I finally decided to change the 6” firm core with those springs I had described and turn it essentially into a Berkeley Malmo:

Layers from top to bottom:
100% Organic Cotton outer fabric
100% Plein-Air French wool quilted to inside of outer fabric
Plein-Air - These sheep live outdoors year-round
Produces a more curly, longer fibre
Superior to mechanically crimped wool, does not matte down as easily
2" 100% Natural Talalay latex
Manufactured by Radium Foam BV in The Netherlands
European honeycomb nested pocket coils - steel, wrapped in polypropylene; a high performance, durable, breathable, moisture-wicking, non-toxic fabric
Coil Counts:
1,484 Queen Size
1,908 King Size

I contacted the manufacturer and supposedly the coil thickness is 1.4mm which was supposed to be 15 gauge. I was a bit skeptical at first but after two nights with the springs it’s definitely more “supportive” than the 6” firm latex core which is odd because everyone told me the latex core should be firmer and more supportive. I’m definitely sinking less into the springs than I was when the latex core was in. I mentioned this in another post but to me, with the springs in it feels more like the mattress is a plump ripe piece of fruit with more turgid pressure pushing up into the peel/skin (the 2” latex topper) and keeping me up noticeably more than when the 6” firm core was in as the support layer. For me when the 6” latex was in it felt more like a dried piece of fruit without the same turgidity, and while still firm, did not stop me from sinking in too much into a firm hard stopping point putting my spine out of alignment.

Again it’s only 2 night but it’s somewhat better with the coils. The back is still stiffer than I’d like and I’m considering seeing if I can make another tweek to keep me more afloat and less sinkage. I don’t know whether to a) switch the soft latex layer for a firm latex topper, b) switch the soft latex layer for a memory foam layer:
2" Belgian Viscoelastic Memory Foam
Open cell, breathable fast response memory foam for supreme pressure relief
4 lb density
Not sensitive to temperature like traditional memory foam
Layer Made in Belgium
Or c) change the springs for firmer springs, like the ones in the Berkeley Berlin mattress (just found out about this a couple days ago):
European honeycomb nested pocket coils - steel, wrapped in polypropylene; a high performance, durable, breathable, moisture-wicking, non-toxic fabric
Taller springs are 6 ¼"
Shorter springs are 5"
Choice of three firmness options:
Plush model features 2.0 and 1.4 mm springs w/ soft latex on top
Firm model features 2.1 and 1.4 mm springs w/ soft latex on top
Extra Firm model features 2.1 and 1.4 mm springs w/ firm latex on top
Coil Counts:
1,127 Queen Size
1,530 King Size

I hope they’ll allow for another tweek with no additional costs but we’ll see. I think it’ll be a toss up between trying the memory foam and the new Berlin springs (which should be firmer than the Malmo springs). I laid on the Berkeley London (which is basically the malmo with the memory foam on the top instead of the latex) and it seemed to feel more rigid and supportive with less sinkage (though only lying on it for a few mins does not represent what happens overnight).
Would you think the memory foam with the 4lb density would be more supportive and keep my more “on top” of the mattress than either the soft or firm talalay latex topper?

Maybe all the issues are the latex form me. It’s comfy but maybe somehow my body rejects it or doesn’t have the right supportive feel for me? Because it’s weird…. one of the earlier tweeks I tried with the Amsterdam was putting a soft cheap foam topper on top of the Amsterdam and it seemed to feel a bit better (still not good) which doesn’t make sense because it would make the mattress softer and more sinkage.

Anyway thus far the mattress company I’ve dealt with has been pretty good, allowing me to swap the latex core for the springs and giving me back some money as the Malmo is cheaper than the Amsterdam. I’d just like to get it right and better with as few tweeks as possible to save them and myself the trouble. I'll probably give it a bit more time on this Malmo configuation before I make a decision.

I have gone and tried out cheaper mattresses (Ikea Haugesand), Kingsdown (Ace TT), Springwall, Setrta sensations iii etc and i definitely felt more "on top" and afloat on the more supportive mattresses and they were significantly cheaper. Hard to say if they would be a better choice as far as how it would feel and perform on a full nights sleep as opposed to lying on it for a few mins. And their durability is an issue likely. Plus it'd be nice to make the current mattress i bought work since i spent a pretty penny on it.

I also have to figure out the foundation which I also bought from them: Berkeley Eronomic Suspension Foundation. Bowed adjustable tension slat foundation. After the first couple weeks I took the mattress off the foundation and I’ve been sleeping with mattress on the floor (with variation of tweeks I mentioned) for the last 3-4 weeks, and it felt noticeably better as well. Not exactly sure why.

Thanks again, that’s all I can think of for now, any suggestions or info would be great!

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01 Sep 2019 16:59 #12 by Sensei
Hey stmslpr,

Hey thanks for the detail in your post. Berkely Ergo products, very well known and high-quality products.

it’s definitely more “supportive” than the 6” firm latex core which is odd because everyone told me the latex core should be firmer and more supportive.......



This is interesting but not that surprising (Berk firm talalay core ild?). Phoenix has a post about it - differences latex core vs innerspring post#2 that discusses some of the technical differences.

Would you think the memory foam with the 4lb density would be more supportive and keep my more “on top” of the mattress than either the soft or firm talalay latex topper?



This is interesting as I think I know this Belgian foam, with the fast response, did you feel the foam itself or see it? It's light blue or it was light blue. It is very nice "memory foam" and really makes the answer to this question more difficult. And really it's more of a "you" question, as everyone could have a different preference.

Your descriptions are very robust, for the 8" Talalay mattress, which is high quality, but different....and not everyone. The zoning is cool looking, but as a core, one cant feel the different zones. Did you have an additional 2" Talalay topper on top of the Amsterdam?

It sounds like your getting close, and the coil move worked so far. Let us know any other questions I am sure I missed something.

Thanks,
Sensei

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
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01 Sep 2019 19:47 #13 by stmslpr
Thanks Sensei!

I can tell the product from Berkeley is of good quality which was why I was willing to gamble and go with them. And the retailer has been good as well thus far. Hoping they might be able to do the soft latex topper swap with potentially the memory foam for free though. I did spend quite a bit for the mattress etc.

According to Berkeley the firm latex core was an ILD of 33 and the soft topper is an ILD of 18.

And yes I’m collecting even more information after sleeping on the 6 inch pocket coils with 2 inch soft latex on top (mattress on the floor) this past week. I’m starting to come to a hypothesis that maybe my muscles/frame etc does not react well to the latex. After about 6 weeks of this new mattress (with my back stiffness and soreness being worse than on my old saggy pillow top coil mattress) I think maybe the latex foam is too…. Lively? Bouncy? Reactive? I think I’m just used to (or is better for my body) or prefer the “deadness” of whatever foam was/is in the pillowtops or even a few memory foam mattresses I’ve briefly slept on in air bnbs or hotels.

It’s hard to tell but maybe (?) it kind of feels like the latex is fighting my weight on it and then maybe my body is fighting it back causing me to be contracted and tight? Hard to say, but my low back and pelvis (upper ridge) has been super stiff, weak feeling and sore and had a fair amount of rib pain. It’s something I would assume only happens if the mattress is too soft and you sink in and not because it's too firm. I mean I do sink into the soft talalay top but I can’t imagine it’d be worse than the sinking I had with my old pillowtop. Which is why you see my confusion of wonder if it’s too soft or too firm right from the start. Almost feels/felt at times, especially when the firm latex core was in, that my heavy parts was able to sink in a bit much into a firm stopping point and the light parts of me were held up accentuating that mid-section arching.

So basically I’ve noticed that just sleeping on the hard carpeted floor made my back feel somewhat better (for sure “firmer” than any mattress) and putting a cheap (non latex) foam topper on top of the 8 inch mattress was also a bit better. Can I conclude that no latex or being further away from it is why I felt a bit better? Maybe the mattress now with the springs in as the support is a bit better for me because there’s less of that lively rubber to “fight against”?

I can fully understand why people love latex and it feels great and seemingly supportive when I lay on it for a while but overnight it wears me down or SOMETHING and I get super sore and stiff.

I think I remember the Belgian foam was beige (maybe a blue tint?). I did lay on it for a bit and I think it had a more “dead” feel compared to the lively latex. I just have no idea if I would sink too much or if it would get super hot overnight after hours on it.

It was suggested that I try actually putting the soft latex topper on the BOTTOM of the mattress and the 6 inch coils on top (directly underneath the cover, mattress protector and bed sheets) and try sleeping on it that way to see how things feel. Everything is still on the floor as it seems/ed to feel better with it off of the suspension foundation 3 weeks ago. He said it wouldn’t harm the mattress in that configuration and if it feels better maybe get some thin foam to place on top of the coils after or maybe the Belgian foam.

I think it’s probably close to the last option try before I might have to consider a completely new mattress. I’m hoping it is just the feel and “action” of the latex and getting rid of it might do the trick.

Thanks again! Hoping i can figure this out sooner than later. The back/body would be thankful.

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03 Sep 2019 10:19 - 03 Sep 2019 10:22 #14 by rp0475
Hi Phoenix, thanks for the info you've provided thus far. I just got back from visiting my parents for a week, and they had added a 2" soft talalay latex topper to their standard S-brand guest room mattress that I had previously mentioned was too firm on my last visit - it made the bed feel soooo much better! At this point I'm convinced I do want a latex hybrid, but am still trying to choose which one. I pretty much have it narrowed down to one of the below four:
- Arizona Premium Ultimate Hybrid (zoned coils)
- Arizona Premium EcoSleep
- Luma Natural Hybrid
- Luma Hybrid Slumber System (zoned coils)

I'm stuck on whether or not the firmer center zone of the Ultimate Hybrid and the Slumber System would be a positive or negative for me. I've read conflicting information on two different articles here on TMU. In your "Putting the layers together" article, you say of the firmer center zoning, "Men in particular with wider shoulders and chests than hips may do well with this. Those with wider hips but more normal weight will likely not do well with this zoning scheme as their hips need to sink down further in proportion to the shoulder to accommodate their width and help with alignment."

However, in your "Tips and Tricks" article, you say the opposite: "If you carry a lot of weight in your hips and/or have heavy/wide hips, especially with thinner shoulders, then a zoned mattress core that is firmer under your hips may be very helpful."

I am a side sleeper, 5'2" and 130lbs, petite build with a thin frame, narrow shoulders and narrow ribcage, but curvy bust and hips. My hips are wider than my shoulders. I've briefly chatted with both Ken (AP) and Tomas (Luma) over email, and was surprised they each recommended something different in terms of zoning. One recommended it, one did not. It's so hard not getting to try these out in store, and I don't want to have to send back another mattress like I did with the Purple 3. I'm trying to get a better sense of whether or not I should be considering the zoning. My biggest problem with mattresses that are too firm are 1) pressure point on the hips...whichever side I'm laying on has a very sore hip when I wake up, and 2) scrunched shoulders because my thin shoulders don't sink in far enough. Issue #1 makes me think zoning would be bad...why would I want to add more pressure under my hips? Issue #2 makes me think maybe zoning would be good...once my wider hips have properly sunk in, maybe the zone at my shoulders needs to be softer yet to get them to sink down. Another thing to consider is my height. At 5'2", I would align with the zones far differently than my 5'11" husband would. I can't imagine how zoning could be equally effective for two such different builds.
I do plan on speaking with both Ken and Tomas again, but curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Last edit: 03 Sep 2019 10:22 by rp0475.

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05 Sep 2019 14:33 #15 by Sensei
Hey rp0475,

Phoenix is off for a couple of hard-earned vacation days, but I will try to address your post. Regarding the earlier articles, I will review with Phoenix and see if there is a need to edit.

I just have a quick thought on the zoning, it is not surprising that Luma and AP may have different opinions on zoning. My own opinion is the zoning less important to your decision than the desire to have a firmer coil unit or not. At your height and weight, I do not think you will feel the "zoning" anyways (you will feel whether it's too firm or not), and issue #1 you raised is important to getting good alignment and pressure relief together. And you bring up a very good point about the zoning, tall person vs short - even though these are high-quality coils units, the zoning is more "marketing" in my opinion. It sounds to me the bolsa coil units, (not as firm) seems to be the right direction.

There may be some locations near you that have these coil units, as they are made by Leggett&Platt a huge conglomerate in the industry.

Thanks,
Sensei

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
For any mattress questions Ask An Expert on our forum

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05 Sep 2019 15:40 - 06 Sep 2019 09:28 #16 by rp0475
Thanks Sensei. You have me feeling better that the Bolsa is the right option. I have had a chance to try L&P combi-zone coils locally, although in a former gauge than what the companies I'm looking at offer. It was too firm, but the Talalay layer was also 22 ILD and I'd prefer 19, so it's not exactly an apples to apples comparison. I don't know who might offer the Bolsa nearby.

I think I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on the Luma, but have another question I'd love your advice on. The topper I slept on recently at my parents' was a 2", 19 ILD Natural Talalay topper from the Latex Mattress Factory. The Luma pillow top is 2" of either natural Dunlop or Blended Talalay. I definitely want Talalay, but I don't know about the blended. My questions are:
1) In the same ILD (19), would blended and natural Talalay feel similar. I've read here that natural can feel firmer, and I wonder if that's why Luma switched their "Plush" from 19 to 24 when they changed from natural to blended.
2) The Natural Latex Hybrid has a transition layer of 28 ILD Dunlop. I know this will be to firm a feel for me, and I'm wondering if the 2" pillow top will be enough to keep my hips from feeling that firmer layer. I initially thought the pillow top was 2", but discovered that was a mistake on the Luma site that they have since fixed.
3) Do you see any reason to go with Natural Talalay over blended? I was surprised to learn today that the blended Talalay is only 30% natural latex.
I'm now also considering just getting the basic Luma Mattress instead of the Natural Hybrid, which is essentially the same thing but without the pillow top. I could then buy either a 2 or 3 inch topper of natural Talalay elsewhere. For that matter, I could do the same with the EcoSleep - the only downside is if I return it, I have to pay return shipping and am out a total of $300 (total, for both ways). I'm also unsure of the differences in coil gauge between the two, and how the 6" coil differs compared to the 8".

What are your thoughts on this?
Last edit: 06 Sep 2019 09:28 by rp0475.

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12 Sep 2019 14:40 #17 by Sensei
Hey rp0475,

Did you ever get the information you needed on the Luma and the coils?

I am pretty sure Luma has both 100% natural Dunlop toppers and the Talalay topper are "blended" formula and they have always used the Talalay blended formula. They have very deep knowledge of latex in their company.

Regarding the talalay, i always recommend Talalay for the toppers and top comfort layers. Unless someone is opposed for personal natural reasons, which I totally respect.

Luma Mattress plus a 3" topper may work better.

Let me know if you want any follow up.

Thanks,
Sensei

Sensei(@ TMU Team)
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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