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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 08 Feb 2021 05:44 #11

I've been to Fox Mattress, great folks over there and always seemed happy to help. That said maybe I can provide a few suggestions that might assist you on your quest. First let's have a look at the inside of your current mattress and see why it doesn't work for you or your wife.

Here's a breakdown of what's inside an original purple mattress (all white cover):


As you can see there's 2" of the gel polymer, 3.5" of (1.8lb, unknown ILD) HD polyfoam and 4" of (2.0lb, unknown ILD) HD polyfoam. Now without knowing your body shape or seeing any photos (showing alignment) it sounds like you are going through the gel comfort layer and your hip/shoulders are hitting the support layers below. Your wife complaining of neck issues could be pillow related or it could be an alignment issue with the shoulders not going into the mattress if this occurs with side sleeping. I would suggest you both take a photo of each other in side sleeping position and check if your spines are straight or not (you should be able to draw a straight line from your tailbone through the base of your neck and out the top of your head).

It sounds like you do like hybrid mattresses and in Florida sleeping hot can definitely be an issue so my suggestion would be to go for a latex hybrid with all talalay on the comfort layers above the coils. I always suggest in cases like this getting one that has a zippable cover so you can tune it (adjust the latex layers) to your own preferences in case it doesn't work perfectly right out of the box. Not sure if Fox can custom build you a mattress like this (might be wort asking) and how much it might cost. This way you could have them help you try different combos of latex foams at the factory (even creating a split if needed so you have your wife have different zones). If they won't do that then there are quite a few other manufacturers that could help you get something like this that would work well for you. I'll leave Sensei and Phoenix to speak to those options for you.

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 08 Feb 2021 07:43 #12

Hello Friend,

Thank you for the feedback. I have seen you helping others, and love your approach as it is extremely supportive and complimentary to Phoenix/Sensei's help.

I did ask Fox about a zipper, and they said that mattress didn't have that as an option, and it was advised against doing zoning, as the mattress had already pretty soft Talalay, not sure how much that is true, but it seemed they believed there was not a lot more softness that could be done for my shoulder.

I was talking to the wife about doing photos as we were driving to Fox Mattress, so we will do that asap. I believe your description is spot on though. I think my hip and shoulders are pushing past the 2inch grid. (Note: we did try the newer Purples, but now the grid becomes more significant and doesn't feel great...though they did give us an upgrade option making it pretty cheap to upgrade).

We will do those photos ASAP! Thank you again, everyone is extremely appreciated, and I hope my journey helps others in the future.

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 08 Feb 2021 09:31 #13

Happy to help and honestly I do it really just because I know from personal experience just how unpleasant sleeping on a mattress that doesn't work for you can be.

Getting back to your case, I'm not sure why Fox didn't like the zoning idea unless maybe they either don't want the hassle or perhaps she misunderstood what you meant. In any case I think the best way to think about what you need is if you take a set of coil springs and lie directly on top of them. Ideally if they were a perfect match your spine would be exactly aligned (assuming you had the right pillow) while lying down. It might be uncomfortable due to pressure from the springs but overall there shouldn't really be any pain in your neck/back/hips from lack of support. This is obviously almost never the reality and so the layers you put above must do two things; 1) provide pressure relief and 2) make any adjustments needed to bring your spine into alignment. Add to this that people have different heights, shapes, weights, sleeping positions, etc then that obviously complicates the number of variables involved to find the best solution for you. The basic premise is that if you are heavier (not just lbs, BMI is important here because it involves weight distribution), is a side sleeper or have a more curvy shape then you will likely need more depth to this upper layer than someone who is a stomach sleeper at the other end of the spectrum. I would suggest you'll need at least 6" of layering (pref latex talalay) above the coils including 2-3" of comfort layer and the rest as a support layer to correct any alignment issues. You could add another 3" if you were having trouble getting the alignment corrected but this is no guarantee since there are some cases as I outlined above which just can't be fixed without zoning (although you may reach an acceptable compromise in some cases). That would also be a very thick mattress (8" coils + 9" comfort/support). I would always try to tailor a bed first using uniform layering because zoning is more complex/expensive and should be reserved as a last resort. Hope this makes sense.

Let us know what you see in the photos and it may help some in figuring out your mattress needs.

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 08 Feb 2021 11:14 #14

Wow and quick Replies! :)

So, this just got extremely interesting for me. I had mentioned a "straight spine" at Fox, and they said that too straight a spine could cause other pains/problems at the hip (i wasnt sure how to process that statement, so I let it roll) (my wife quoted it, when I was taking these pics).

Looking at the pictures, and marking them, I just...cringe. First 3 are on the Purple, last one with my wife is on the Chattam that she feels better on right now. I can definitely see why I prefer a thinner pillow, and am often at the "far end" of the pillow, for my necks sake. We use to have a lower BMI (not that it is higher) as gym rats, but you know... toddlers and time. Anyways enough excuses on that piece. :)
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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 08 Feb 2021 13:09 #15

Those photos are very telling, I'm glad it helped provide some clarity on why you may be having mattress issues. I find it strange the folks at Fox said a straight spine causes problems but you were right not to argue because often it won't help your cause. Think about if you stand straight up then start bending to the side at the waist a bit and hold it.....after a while you'll see it's not a very comfortable position because it's not neutral. Same thing happens when you lie sideways on a bed. Now ideally the spine is perfectly straight but some people may tolerate more bend in the spine before they feel any discomfort or pain while sleeping. Just look at young kids, heck they can sleep straight on the floor or in an airplane/car and wake up ready to raise hell the next morning. People with injuries, joint issues, elderly, etc will have a much narrower range where it remains comfortable but again all people will prefer the spine in a neutral position (barring some serious medical condition like Scoliosis).

In your photos on the Purple mattress it looks like you have a large bend in the spine near the middle of your back but I also see your shoulder is rolled over underneath you (which I suspect is from the lack of give in the bed in that area on the Purple mattress). So really you have 2 issues there, 1) you need support near your middle so it doesn't sink into the bed too far and 2) you need the bed to have some give in the hips and especially the shoulder to allow you to sink into the bed more for good alignment. This is not likely a case where just adding more toppers will fix the issue.

In your wife's case you can see why she would prefer the other bed. In the purple mattress you can see her spine is quite bent almost in a slight hammock shape while in the Chattam her lower back looks fairly straight (likely because her hips can sink into the mattress more) but her shoulder needs more travel into the mattress to stop her spine from bending in the mid back area.

At least you're now starting to see what to look for and how to make it work for you.

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 09 Feb 2021 09:55 #16

Thanks for all the feedback, greatly appreciated!. I look forward to next recommendations, as I am at a loss for options. I was thinking flobeds before, but it doesn't have an adequate topper for my wife (and no way to evaluate). FloBeds seems to think an Egg-Crate topper is great, but I have always found them the first thing to fall apart-degrade, so that one puzzles me as well.

Thoughts? I'm interested in where Phoenix would suggest I go from here.

Summary of where we stand:
1. We understand our body's are not straight, and that we need a lot more "give" in our hips and shoulders.
2. We really like talalay, but it needs a pretty dang good cover on top of it for my wife to like it. (Which is what Fox Mattress has)
3. Fox Mattresses solution may not be quite "right" for us, but it sure as heck is getting closer.
4. We don't want memory foam

So... we are making progress! Woo!

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 11 Feb 2021 06:25 #17

Any suggestions on where to go from here? I'm staring to research talalay and zoned mattresses, but any direction or next step recommendation would be appreciated.

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 11 Feb 2021 08:56 #18

Not sure if Phoenix or Sensei have suggestions but I guess the first question I'd be asking myself is what type of mattress do I want. It sounds like you were heading in the hybrid direction but then you mentioned Flobeds which only sell all latex beds (you may want to try one first locally if possible) so I wasn't sure. Then the next question is are you looking for a turn key product or did you want to try a DIY setup (again going this route can have some additional challenges but can be very rewarding when you get it right). After that I'd ask if you have budget constraints or is it basically don't care and just want it solved (I'm probably in this category right now myself). Once you've gone through these questions then you can start to narrow down your choices and figure out who to work with and/or what materials you might need. It's really too bad Fox wasn't more willing to work with you to try something like a custom hybrid talalay mattress because it may have created a great option that others might be interested in later as well. I can't say I'm totally surprised because last time I was there they pretty much focused on polyfoam and memory foam mattresses but not sure if that is still the case now.

Quick comment on the flobeds topper, it's actually convoluted (eggcrate) talalay latex so it's WAY more durable than the old polyfoam eggcrate toppers we all had in university for our dorm mattresses. I haven't tried it myself so I can speak to how it feels personally but the design is to make the top layer super soft (which an ILD 14-15 topper would definitely do).

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 11 Feb 2021 12:01 #19

Thanks for the reply, and I do hope to hear from Phoenix/Sensei :)

So, originally I was "all over the map" which was called out by Phoenix. When we were at Fox Mattress though, what became apparent is we really did like the mattress they suggested--it just didn't solve all the problems, it IMPROVED many of the problems. So, if I use that as the "ah hah" moment, that was a Talalay mattress with (great) topper, it just wasn't zoned in a way that helped further align my spine, or reducing my shoulder compression. So, FloBed does seem very compelling. I did see the egg-topper was talalay, this morning about an hour after my inquiry, so this is a good thing. Unfortunately, there is no place for me to test a FloBed locally. There is a "Relax in Comfort" near me, that sells SavvyRest which has many Talalay variants (FloBed without the zoning) that I was going to go check out, as our next step in the short-term.

Right now I lean FloBed, I don't know how I feel about doing a DIY mattress (beyond what a FloBed would be), and we were hoping to finance the bed (building wife's credit up). The price we actually have some flexibility on, and right now appears to be in the 3-4k range based on FloBed and FoxMattress being in that range. But that's also why I hope to get more feedback or suggestion on next steps.

Thanks for your help!

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Search for a new mattress, leaving Purple, Need suggestions! 12 Feb 2021 20:50 #20

Hi darrylb.

Right now I lean FloBed, I don't know how I feel about doing a DIY mattress (beyond what a FloBed would be), and we were hoping to finance the bed (building wife's credit up). The price we actually have some flexibility on, and right now appears to be in the 3-4k range based on FloBed and FoxMattress being in that range. But that's also why I hope to get more feedback or suggestion on next steps.


It appears you have been receiving some excellent guidance from Mattrebuild. I’d add just a few more cents to the tally. ;)

I was thinking flobeds before, but it doesn't have an adequate topper for my wife (and no way to evaluate). FloBeds seems to think an Egg-Crate topper is great, but I have always found them the first thing to fall apart-degrade, so that one puzzles me as well.


As Mattrebuild mentions a latex topper of medium firmness will easily last a decade or so. The 2” convoluted latex at 28 ILD will act like a 16 ILD topper creating the soft but resilient cradle (takes on the shape of the body better which provides more even support and aids in better pressure relief), has a higher support factor you most likely need for your side sleeping. See FloBeds hardness specs in the image below. (This does not apply to you but FYI ...very soft ILDs (around 14) for higher BMI ranges under increased mechanical stress tend to wear out faster.)
From my discussions with them, they have settled on this design and use convoluted latex across their all-latex mattresses for decades because based on consumer feedback and reports of pressure point relief and better skin blood circulation (similar to the setup used for hospital patients post-operation)

Additionally, you can request to replace the convoluted layer with a solid layer of the same thickness latex and your choice of ILD (from 22 ILD to 36 ILD) if you prefer, or … you can initiate an exchange if you wish to try the convoluted version to experiment with. Their vZoned mattress has 13 possible firmnesses (each side of the bed) and 100 Night Money Back Firmness Guaranteed Test Rest to get the right firmness. If returned during this time you’ll get a full refund, but you will have to pay for the shipping back. For example, a queen mattress would cost about $79 to ship to the Continental US. They offer their UPS account to return at the same price, so your risk would be about $148.

1. We understand our bodies are not straight, and that we need a lot more "give" in our hips and shoulders.


Again, it’s good to know FloBeds made it into your finalists. With its customization options, it has a high probability of being a good match for you and your wife as the vZone offers customized lumbar support, shoulder, and hip relief which will allow for your spine to settle in its neutral alignment. You can switch around the comfort layers until you are happy. I noted in the alignment photos you uploaded that the pillow elevation is too high and can add some pressure on your cervical (especially for your wife) I would address the pillow issue a little after the mattress purchase as the pillow/mattress combo is an important part of the alignment puzzle.

2. We really like talalay, but it needs a pretty dang good cover on top of it for my wife to like it. (Which is what Fox Mattress has)


FloBeds’ cover is organic cotton stretch knit quilted to organic wool which is preferred for its anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties. The cover is good quality and also unzips for comfort exchanges, cleaning, and hanging in the sun and I don’t see any red flags that may be cause of concern. Is there something specific that your wife is looking for in a cover?

3. Fox Mattresses solution may not be quite "right" for us, but it sure as heck is getting closer.


This option has the advantage of store visits and maybe trying mattresses in several sittings. Many times, our perceptions change with our mood .. our bodies are funny that way... so it is a good idea to double-check that it is really getting closer to what you need.

4. We don't want memory foam


Yes, memory foam is not for everyone but many people got used to this particular feeling. Memory foam can be a "love it or hate it" material and it certainly has "weaknesses" that latex doesn't have even though they are roughly equivalent in terms of their ability to relieve pressure. You are probably wise to avoid it if your experience indicates you don't do well with it in the long term.
Just in case you want to peruse other options here are some other Trusted Members that offer Latex beds [some offering zoned options as well]:
Arizona Premium
Latex Mattress Factory
Nest Bedding
Foam Sweet Foam
My Green Mattress
Luma Sleep

It certainly looks like you are making great progress. :) I'll be interested to learn of your eventual decisions.

Phoenix
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