TOPIC:

Hello all! Thank you for accepting me into your humble forum. I've spent a good portion of this past week researching mattresses, and I only just stumbled onto this site yesterday. I'm a pretty fast reader, so I managed to get some really great information that has potentially saved me from a world of hurt (literally).

I have been on a search for a new mattress. Most of last week I spent researching mattresses and almost fell in to the trap of bed-in-a-box marketing. I managed to find some sense and found a showroom that had some of these available (I am in NY, btw). SleePare is where I went, and I am so glad I did because I was able to discern what was strictly marketing from the stuff that actually mattered. Well, at that time, it was feel (my comfort level) - and it still is, but after reading posts on this forum I am now very keen on including quality of materials and build in my search for a great mattress. Anyway, I walked away pretty broken hearted because things are clearly not going to be easy as I had hoped. But I did come away with some knowledge and my partner really liked one of the beds.

Backtracking a little bit, I am 6'0" tall and weigh 245 lbs and my partner is 5'3" and weights 212 (we are overweight, but not obese). She is a combination sleeper (falls asleep on her side, but more often than not wakes up on her back). I am a 90% side sleeper - there are times when I can only seem to fall asleep on my back. This makes it pretty difficult to find a mattress we both like (we don't like the idea of a split king). Currently, we have a TempurPedic Probreeze Medium and before that we had some run of the mill S-brand innerspring. We like the Tempur, but we know we can have better. For me especially, I want better - mostly because I don't find it quite as comfortable as she does. We're planning on keeping the mattress, but moving it into the guest room. We house friends who need help getting back on their feet, the pandemic hasn't been kind.

Back on track, I came away with the knowledge that I really like the feel of latex. I tried 2 latex mattresses at SleePare. The first was an Avocado mattress and the second was from a brand I had never heard of before - Velika. My partner didn't like the Avocado. I was ok with it, but was not convinced. After trying other beds, the guy who was helping us out showed us this latex hybrid bed that felt incredible. The last time I felt like that was when I first jumped on our TempurPedic after it had arrived to our doorstep. Velika's mattress is advertised as recyclable and all green .It's double sided, firm, made with Talalay latex, and hand tufted. The coils inside are touted as being some kind of "quantum" coiling with over 2000 of them (Queen sized). My partner really really loved the feel of it. I was impressed and felt better about it compared to every other mattress in the showroom.

After we left, I wanted to do more research on Velika, but I couldn't find much information on them. At some point I stumbled across this site and began reading a lot of different sub-threads. I was actually quite pleased to find out that Latex mattresses are generally pretty durable, so I was even more inclined to find out about Velika and other latex mattresses. Eventually I found out that Velika is supposed to be an Eclipse "luxury" brand. It certainly felt luxurious. And the mattress cut out they had - to show off its internal components - looked legit. But then after more hours on here I found out that Eclipse isn't known for making quality mattresses. Womp. Back to the drawing board I guess.

I started doing a lot of digging for manufacturers who make quality mattresses at a great value. My budget is 5k or less (preferably less so that I may also get a foundation or bed platform). I found quite a lot, actually. I think I have like 20 tabs open right now. So, finally, my questions are: 1) I see some threads that name retailers and manufacturers as trusted and being a member of TMU, but they're not listed in the trusted member page. An example of this is Dixie Foam. Is the list constantly changing? 2) Should I no longer trust a brand/manufacturer if they are no longer listed? 3) Are there threads that mention why certain brands/manufacturers are no longer listed?

Other questions I have, not related to the above are 4) Is there an ideal sweet spot? As in, at what price point do diminishing returns begin to happen? 5) I've been reading about the DIY mattress, but I'm still unsure. If you have experience, why did you do it and how did you reach that decision? 6) And finally, about the Velika, online they are listed at slightly over $8000 (this includes the mattress, topper, and foundation). They seem to only be sold as a 3-piece. However, the guy at SleePare said he can get me a great deal for just the mattress and the topper. He kept mentioning something about 35% on top off the already ongoing President's day sale discounts and that the bed will come out to be somewhere from $500-700 more than a Birch latex mattress. Based on what I've said, is this a good deal? Should I have taken it?

If you've made it this far. I am truly grateful and I am looking forward to your advice. Thank you so much for your time.

Edit: Formatting of paragraphs

Hi olopez,

I'm not a mattress expert, but I did recently do an DIY all-latex mattress build after quite a long bit of mattress research. I can lend my thoughts to some of your questions based on my experience.

First, I did a bit of Googling and here's what I find on the Velika mattress that you liked. velikabed.com

Mattress
- Two-sided latex hybrid mattress, hand-tufted
- Cover is organic cotton
- Fire barrier is fire-resistant rayon
- Support layer is Bolsa coils with Caliber Edge
- From the diagram, it looks like the layers from the top to the bottom inside the cover are: wool, latex, cotton, coils, cotton latex, wool (this is an educated guess)

Topper (they call it a duvet)
- Cover is a wool/rayon blend knit channel quilted to organic wool
- Inside the topper are layers of cotton, wool, and latex
- From the diagram, it looks like the layers from the top to the bottom inside the cover are: wool, latex, cotton, latex, wool (this is an educated guess)
- One side of the topper is described as ultra plush, the other is medium firm (providing 2 comfort choices depending on which side is up, as far as I can read between the lines)

Materials, general:
- At least some of the latex is copper-infused natural Talalay latex (from Talalay Global). ILDs are unspecified, other than to reference descriptive terms like "ultra plush" and "medium firm", which they don't necessarily attribute to the latex itself.
- At least some of the wool is New Zealand organic wool
- At least some of the cotton is organic. They display the GOTS logo but don't specifically state that the cotton is GOTS certified or show any proof. You could confirm the company's GOTS certification status by looking them up in the GOTS database.

In my opinion, their mattress specs are a bit vague, in terms of the latex ILD and the components' organic credentials. For instance, they don't specify that ALL of the cotton is organic, just the cover. Maybe this is just poor marketing/writing, or maybe they are hiding something, I don't know. I don't know anything about Eclipse as a company or their reputation for producing quality mattresses.I had never heard of this mattress before, even though I did pretty extensive research on organic latex mattresses a few months ago.

The Velika mattress seems to be of a similar construction to the Avocado hybrid with the Avocado topper, although the Velika does have some additional layers. Do you know if the Avocado you tried was their hybrid model (rather than their all latex model), and do you know if you tried it with the Avocado topper with it? What underwhelmed you about the Avocado? When you tried the Verika mattress, do you know which side of the topper (or duvet as they call it) was facing up - the ultra plush side or the medium firm side? If you're looking to find mattresses comparable to the Velika, this info will help you zone in on other mattresses that you might like as well.

On the topic of mattress cost and diminishing returns - this is a question I hesitate to offer my opinion on as everyone's financial situation and idea of cost to value ratios differ, especially when you factor in what mattress features are important to you. Do you care that the mattress cover appearance looks polished/trendy, or are you happy with a generic looking but quality cover? Is it important to you that some or all of the materials are organic and/or natural? Do you have extenuating health or body-build circumstances that require a thicker (and more expensive) mattress to achieve comfort? Is an extremely generous return policy important to you?

Now that I've gotten the "take my opinion with a grain of salt" business out of the way, from my shopping experience there are many options for a high quality all-latex or hybrid latex king-sized mattresses with natural and some organic components from a reputable retailer in the $1400-$2000 price range. You can definitely pay more than that - a lot more. Whether or not the additional features of higher priced mattresses are worth it or not is only something that you can answer.

You also asked about DIY builds, which is what I ultimately ended up doing. Initially, I did not intend to go the DIY route as it seemed like more of a pain that it was worth, and at that time I didn't have the knowledge or confidence that I could do it successfully. Thanks to TMU for helping me to gain the knowledge I needed! My reasons for going the DIY route were two-fold. The first was that I couldn't find a wool-free all-latex mattress that I thought would be soft enough.There are a few wool-free latex mattresses out there, but they are all described as medium firm or firmer, which I was pretty sure would not work for us comfort-wise. The second reason was that purchasing the mattress components separately I found was less expensive then buying a pre-assembled mattress with similar components, or even a pre-packaged mattress that you put together yourself. I attributed the lower cost to the fact that I could choose the exact components I wanted (stretch knit organic cotton cover, but not necessarily organic latex), paying a premium only for the upgrades that mattered the most to me. Another reason for the lower DIY cost is that you are forgoing "free returns" and "free layer exchanges", which mattress retailers bake into the prices of their mattresses. I tried to mitigate the risk by making sure I bought components from retailers with great customer service and choosing components that gave me the option of tweaking the mattress comfort if needed. And of course, doing as much research as I could in approximating what mattress components would work for us.

If you've got more specific DIY questions, let me know.

Best of luck, and do let us know how you get along!
Emily

One more thing - don't be pressured into the whole "President's Day Sale" thing. Mattress retailers are notorious for having the same "sales" going on all the time, simply re-branded for whatever the closest holiday is. They try to make it seem like it's a special event/special price, but it rarely is.

Hi olopez.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum.

I can see you have received some great tips from Emily!

In addition to her in-depth reply, I wanted to add a few things.

First, as you are both side sleepers with BMIs over 30, it's extremely important - should you be considering mattresses with memory or poly foam in the comfort layers - that you find something appropriate with regards to both support and durability .

Higher BMI ranges will need more durable materials and components in a mattress and in a BMI range of 30 or higher I would include any 1.8 lb polyfoam or 4 lb memory foam as a "lower quality/density" material (relative to a higher BMI only) and minimize their use to a total of "about an inch or so or less" in the mattress.

Polyurethane foam: If the mattress is one-sided then I would look for 2.0 lb per cubic foot density or higher. If the mattress is two-sided then I would use a minimum foam density of 1.8 lbs per cubic foot or higher.

Memory foam (or gel memory foam): If the mattress is one-sided then I would make sure that any memory foam is at least 5 lb per cubic foot. If the mattress is two-sided then I would use a minimum density of 4 lbs per cubic foot.

As you've mentioned a preference for latex, I might consider reaching out to some or all of the following A number of our Trusted Members :

Arizona Premium
Sleep EZ
FloBeds
Latex Mattress Factory
Nest Bedding

It's possible I forgot to add someone so definitely do look through our directory as well.

She is a combination sleeper (falls asleep on her side, but more often than not wakes up on her back). I am a 90% side sleeper - there are times when I can only seem to fall asleep on my back. This makes it pretty difficult to find a mattress we both like (we don't like the idea of a split king)

Why is that? A split configuration can be a great option for you both to get the support and comfort you both need and deserve from a single mattress. It also provides excellent motion isolation.

The mattress can be built so that the total thickness of the mattress is the same for each side, which means that there would be no difference in elevation, and with a suitable tight fitted quilted cover, the “split” transition area between sides is usually unnoticeable for most people. You can read more here about side by side layering in post #2.

Regardless of which mattress you choose or may be considering, it's important that you have a detailed conversation with the knowledgeable and experienced retailer or manufacturer who, and provide them with good information about your body types, sleeping styles, general preferences and history, some general information about mattresses you have tested and done well with, and any other specific information or circumstances that could affect your choice of a mattress.

1) I see some threads that name retailers and manufacturers as trusted and being a member of TMU, but they're not listed in the trusted member page. An example of this is Dixie Foam. Is the list constantly changing?

As is the nature of business, we sometimes lose or gain members over the years for various reasons.

2) Should I no longer trust a brand/manufacturer if they are no longer listed?

You want to look for retailers who are transparent with their materials, foam densities, and willing to put your needs above their bottom line. You can learn more about that here .

3) Are there threads that mention why certain brands/manufacturers are no longer listed?

Sometimes! You can usually find that kind of information by doing a keyword search in the forum.

4) Is there an ideal sweet spot? As in, at what price point do diminishing returns begin to happen?

I would recommend this article on value - I think it will answer your question!

5) I've been reading about the DIY mattress, but I'm still unsure. If you have experience, why did you do it and how did you reach that decision?

Emily offered some information already, but you may also find this forum topic useful.

6) and finally, about the Velika, online they are listed at slightly over $8000 (this includes the mattress, topper, and foundation). They seem to only be sold as a 3-piece. However, the guy at SleePare said he can get me a great deal for just the mattress and the topper. He kept mentioning something about 35% on top off the already ongoing President's day sale discounts and that the bed will come out to be somewhere from $500-700 more than a Birch latex mattress. Based on what I've said, is this a good deal? Should I have taken it?

Quality mattresses with great value are available year round at better retailers and manufacturers and the so-called "sale prices" that are offered by most of the mainstream stores and major brands (and even some of the smaller ones) are often a complete gimmick. Sale prices of 30, 40, 50% or more off are a major warning sign (and never really end) since nobody ever buys these mattresses at regular prices anyway. These fake sale prices are meant to encourage you to buy based on a false perception of value or based on a sense of urgency when in fact they are often still very much overpriced based on the materials in the mattress. While even good stores or manufacturers will occasionally have a sale ... they will be discounted from selling prices that already have good value and be for a smaller discount and for a legitimate reason.

Buy a mattress based on the quality of materials that are in it and how it is constructed ... never by the brand. Every mattress manufacturer or retailer should be able to tell you exactly what is in every mattress they sell layer by layer (from a cutaway or spec sheet) and the benefits and qualities of each material and layer. This includes the density of any polyfoam or memory foam, the type and blend of any latex, the type of fabrics or quilting materials or fibers that are used in the mattress cover (ticking), and any other materials in the mattress. If they can't or won't provide this information ... pass them by unless you are willing to go through the time and frustration of trying to find out yourself and hitting the many roadblocks that may be involved in trying to research and discover this information if it is even available at all

I hope this helps.
NikkiTMU

The Velika mattress seems to be of a similar construction to the Avocado hybrid with the Avocado topper, although the Velika does have some additional layers. Do you know if the Avocado you tried was their hybrid model (rather than their all latex model), and do you know if you tried it with the Avocado topper with it? What underwhelmed you about the Avocado? When you tried the Verika mattress, do you know which side of the topper (or duvet as they call it) was facing up - the ultra plush side or the medium firm side? If you're looking to find mattresses comparable to the Velika, this info will help you zone in on other mattresses that you might like as well.

Thank you for your response and I apologize for coming back to this so late. We tried the Green mattress, which is their hybrid. It did not have a pillowtop. It felt "thin", I'm not really sure how to describe it. At least for me, I couldn't get over the fact that the quilting/ticking, the fabric holding the mattress together, felt like it was separate from the mattress itself. It gave the mattress an incomplete feel. Does that make sense? We also tried the Velika without the topper. I don't really like mattresses with included toppers, I prefer to buy my own. But yeah, what we liked about the Velika is that we felt like we were on the mattress as opposed to in it. Every part of my back/spine felt nice when I was on my side, almost as if a cloud had been shaped for sleeping, without the sinking in feeling.

Btw, we ended up passing up on the Velika because it did not pass our value test and we did not receive the information we had asked for. But we are considering some other mattresses that we had a chance to try last weekend.

Now that I've gotten the "take my opinion with a grain of salt" business out of the way, from my shopping experience there are many options for a high quality all-latex or hybrid latex king-sized mattresses with natural and some organic components from a reputable retailer in the $1400-$2000 price range. You can definitely pay more than that - a lot more. Whether or not the additional features of higher priced mattresses are worth it or not is only something that you can answer.

Yeah, I actually had the opportunity to try mattresses on both ends of the spectrum (lower cost sub-$3000; higher cost up to $10,000) this last weekend. I think for our perfect mattress, we'd be willing to go up to $5000, give or take, which is about the same we paid for the Tempur-Pedic we currently have.

Higher BMI ranges will need more durable materials and components in a mattress and in a BMI range of 30 or higher I would include any 1.8 lb polyfoam or 4 lb memory foam as a "lower quality/density" material (relative to a higher BMI only) and minimize their use to a total of "about an inch or so or less" in the mattress.

Polyurethane foam: If the mattress is one-sided then I would look for 2.0 lb per cubic foot density or higher. If the mattress is two-sided then I would use a minimum foam density of 1.8 lbs per cubic foot or higher.

Yeah, that's one of the things that I've been asking the salesperson at every showroom that we are visiting. It's a slow process though. Since I try not to be out for too long, I keep my visits to 30-45 mins per showroom, making it difficult to get all the information that same day. Instead, I have to rely on them remembering to email me.

I have a question about the durability of the materials used. In the guide for the expected lifespan of certain materials (from longest to shortest), HR polyfoam sits between microcoils and high quality memory foam (5lb/pcf). What is HR polyfoam? And do I have to consider density for this polyfoam like HD and conventional polyfoams? If so, what would be ideal?

Thank you for all the help so far.

I have a question about the durability of the materials used. In the guide for the expected lifespan of certain materials (from longest to shortest), HR polyfoam sits between microcoils and high quality memory foam (5lb/pcf). What is HR polyfoam? And do I have to consider density for this polyfoam like HD and conventional polyfoams? If so, what would be ideal?

I found the answer to this not too long after. Ooops. Is this an industry standard, in the sense that anything labeled as HR foam is 2.5lb density? I don't want to be misled by spec sheets for mattresses that misuse this term. Thanks

Hi olopez.

It's always funny when we end up answering our own questions

Is this an industry standard, in the sense that anything labeled as HR foam is 2.5lb density

I may just be repeating what you already know, but for a polyfoam to qualify as HR foam, it must also have a support factor of 2.4 or higher. HR foam is is the highest grade of polyfoam.

I would also encourage you to read (if you haven't already) the section on polyfoam as a support core section as HR polyfoam is one of the most mislabeled materials in a mattress ... both in stores and on the internet.

The short version: it often appears that any polyfoam that has a density of more that 2.5 lbs/cu. ft. or even lower is called HR...yet you will *not* be told that it does not have the additional required support factor of 2.4 or higher to be considered HR.

I hope that makes sense.
NikkiTMU