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Sensitive Sleeper Exchanging/Replacing Denver Mattress 19 Sep 2021 08:11 #1

I could use some help. I am 5'2" 125lbs side sleeper with circulation issues and I sleep hot. Spouse is 6'1" 200 lbs side sleeper with shoulder pain.

We are sleeping on Denver Mattress Telluride Plush latex hybrid. This is our second mattress from Denver Mattress in 1.5 years because the first one was way too hard. Our old mattress was a pillow top with springs, which I loved but sagged after 6 years. We have had the Telluride for over a year and he tosses and turns, while my hands fall asleep. Mattress toppers make it tollerable, but when he rolls over I am getting a ton of motion transfer so I wake up.

I changed frames to see if that will help and removed the box spring. Nothing changed the outcome of me sleeping on the couch 60% of the week.

I do well on hotel beds and pillow top mattresses. I cannot sleep on a firm mattress because my hands and feet fall asleep. My husband's shoulder bothers him on a firm mattress although he says he likes a harder mattress than me.

For all intents and purposes our mattress seems like it should provide the softness and support we need. Here is the description of the Telluride mattress that I found online:

Engineered Stretch Knit Zippered Cover
Stretch FR Sock
Comfort Layers:
1.5" 2.5lb Serene Comfort Foam
3” GOLS Certified Organic Latex 14 ILD
1 Flex Net Insulator
Support System:
The B.O.S.S. (Balanced Orthopedic Sleep System)
Coil Density: 1147* Alternating Checkerboard
Individually Wrapped Coils
15.5 Gauge Tempered Steel
3" 1.8lb Foam Base with Engineered Articulating Cuts

I have gone through a bazillion different mattress company sites. Read info on Reddit and Mattress Underground and feel like I have a good working knowledge of options. The challenge is that I don't want to end up with the same issues I have today.

As far as I can tell I have three options:

1. Denver Mattress will give me $1k toward a new mattress, but I am not so keen on going through them. We did sit on a soft TempurPedic and it was pretty nice, but they are very expensive and I'm not sure they are worth it. If I was to buy a mattress from them I think this would be it.

2. I am looking at building a mattress from APM. For me it would be (bottom to top) latex Firm/soft/soft and husband is firm/medium/medium. All this with some kind of topper. I think Dunlap would be better all around to reduce motion transfer, but if folks have a better idea on this let me know?

3. Buy a latex mattress: bellaseraorganicmattress.com/organic-mattress.html. Dunlap is the only option. I would use the same layering setup. It is similar to APM in that we can customize the layers and sides. Also I like this option because we have a local company selling these mattresses who will help us trade out layers to get to the right bed for us. However this is pricey.

I am so unsure of what to do. I think option number 3 is best but could use advice on whether you think this is a reputable mattress company? If any of these options will be soft enough not to create issues but not too soft as to create back problems for us? For my husband's side do you think this is too firm? how do we greatly reduce motion transfer? Any best practices for people with big pressure points like myself and my husband?

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Last edit: by StinkyFace.

Sensitive Sleeper Exchanging/Replacing Denver Mattress 23 Sep 2021 16:40 #2

Hi StinkyFace.

Welcome to our Mattress Forum! :)

Apologies for the late reply. We had to redistribute some TMU tasks as we are one moderator short for a little while until Sensei is back from a personal leave. Thank you for providing the detailed specs of the Telluride Plush

I changed frames to see if that will help and removed the box spring. Nothing changed the outcome of me sleeping on the couch 60% of the week.

Sorry to hear that both your Denver mattresses have durability issues and the comfort/support specs are mismatched for you and your husband. It is quite distressing to have to switch beds and sleep on the sofa 60% of the time. You did not list your BMI, sleeping positions, and other specific stats which would be useful in understanding what may have gone wrong on the suitability front.

I understand you changed the frames to check if that is the cause of the sagging. but a better way to eliminate the foundation as a problem and being sagging or unsupportive is to place the mattress on the floor While removing the box spring is a good start you have to ensure that the support system is still perfectly flat, has good center support, and that there are no parts that are sagging or that are bending under the weight of the mattress and the people sleeping on it. It should provide similar support to having your mattress on the floor and you can test this by putting your mattress on the floor to see if it makes any difference. If it does then it's possible that your support system could be part of the problem as well. Any sagging will bring with it spinal misalignment and even though you do not mention lower back pains your husband’s restlessness may have to do with his body trying to compensate during the night.

I do well on hotel beds and pillow top mattresses. I cannot sleep on a firm mattress because my hands and feet fall asleep. My husband's shoulder bothers him on a firm mattress although he says he likes a harder mattress than me.
We have had the Telluride for over a year and he tosses and turns, while my hands fall asleep. Mattress toppers make it tollerable, but when he rolls over I am getting a ton of motion transfer so I wake up.

I would tend to avoid using Hotel mattresses as a benchmark. Hotel mattresses, while not a single "type" of the mattress, do tend to be in the general category of what many would call "medium-firm" which means that they have a medium plush layer over a firmer support core. This "feel" tends towards the average preference of a large cross-section of the population. Hotels select beds that are a bit firmer feeling and then customizing their mattresses with various “top of bed” products such as plush mattress pads and polyfill toppers. These are easier to replace and launder and offer a more cost-effective solution to add a bit of plushness to a mattress, and the items closest to your skin – the sheets and pillows – can have a dramatic impact on the overall impression of comfort made by a hotel mattress but that does not guaranty long term suitability if the “top of the bed” product starts degrading.

From the symptoms you describe for you and your husband even though it appears that the mattress is too firm it may be a little more complicated ... 4.5” of very soft foams on top would qualify as a plush however there are many interrelated variables that you’d need to take into account. Depending on your BMI and sleeping position it may also be that you are sinking in and bottoming out on the firmer support system under, it may also be combined with some sagging of the support system under your bed. While I can make a few general suggestions that may help in tracking down some of the possible reasons for your numbness I suggest that you first try to understand your sleeping landscape and where your symptoms originate and do a little bit of local testing before you rush into any online purchase.

Numbness, shoulder pressure points, and pains while sleeping on your back can come from a mattress that is too firm and puts direct pressure on the shoulders, the shoulder blades, or on the back muscles and can also cause soreness or numbness and tingling in the arms or can often come from postural issues as well. There is a bit more information about sleeping positions and posture in this article here .

how do we greatly reduce motion transfer? Any best practices for people with big pressure points like myself and my husband?

There are many variables that affect motion transfer such as the combinations of materials and components, and the type of movement you are trying to isolate (larger bouncy movements, smaller vibration type of movements etc), and the effect of comfort layers (latex, memory foam, microcoils) compared to the effect of support layers (latex, innersprings). Comfort layers will have more of an effect on smaller or slower movements or can damp the effect of the layers below while support layers will have more of an effect on larger, stronger, or faster movements. There are also different types of each material and different mattress constructions that can have more of an effect than the material itself. Trying to make comparisons for each material in isolation can be more misleading than helpful. Box springs under a mattress or other support systems that flex under a mattress can also transfer more motion than a support system that has no flex at all.

The best strategy against motion transfer would be to get two twin XL on separate foundations or adjustable beds and perhaps place them within the same bed frame for esthetic reasons. The disadvantage that comes with this option is that there’ll be a gap between the beds and you will probably need to fill it using a convertor. Depending on the level of sensitivity to motion transfer your next best option would be to get a split king which can be also customized to fit the different needs and preferences between you and your husband. (see the first part of www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-forum/general-mattresses/5011-designing-the-right-mattress-for-us.html#5016 ). There are also some comments about the pros and cons of split king mattresses (two twin XL mattresses placed side by side) vs a single king size mattress in post #8 here and in this topic .

I am so unsure of what to do. I think option number 3 is best but could use advice on whether you think this is a reputable mattress company? If any of these options will be soft enough not to create issues but not too soft as to create back problems for us? For my husband's side do you think this is too firm?

From the 3 options, you mentioned I would avoid the first one unless you are able to find the mattress information listed here to compare the quality of the materials and components to the www.themattressunderground.com/our-articles/mattress-durability-guidelines-how-long-will-a-mattress-last.html mattress durability guidelines here

Option 2 has many advantages over the 3 options you listed as you can make a purchase under the guidance of Ken from Arizona Premium Mattress who is the manufacturer and is much more familiar with their own mattress designs and materials than anyone else (including me) and they can use the information you provide them about your body type and sleeping positions, your preferences, your history on different mattresses, and the results of your local testing to make suggestions based on the "averages" of other customers that may be similar to you. The more accurate and detailed the information you provide them the better you will help them to help you make the best possible choices out of the options they have available.

I am not sure if option 3 that you tend to gravitate towards is an online purchase or if you can do any local testing which would be the best way to assess suitability. I have not done a deep dive into the company to assess its reputation but generally speaking, the components are durable. The mattress itself is not organically certified but they list it as having organic components. I do not see the organic certifications for their suppliers either on Bella's site or the two shops that offer this mattress.

Of course the options you have available with each retailer or manufacturer (or with a particular mattress) and your ability to exchange layers or the mattress itself or use other forms of fine-tuning after your purchase or the return policy may also be an important part of your personal value equation or to offset the risk that can go with any online purchase.

Phoenix
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Last edit: by phoenix.

Sensitive Sleeper Exchanging/Replacing Denver Mattress 23 Sep 2021 18:34 #3

Hello Phoenix,

Thank you for all of the wonderful advice.

I apologize I did not provide BMI and sleeping position. My BMI is 23 and my husband’s is 27. We are both side sleepers, although my spouse sleeps on his back some times because of his shoulder.

As it relates to our position, I forgot to mention that I put a topper on the bed very early on because my hands were falling asleep to the point of it being painful. The topper has helped but I notice that if I don’t fluff the topper up every month I start to hurt again. I was actually wondering if the zoning in the bed is off for me because I am petite and it is not supporting the right spots? Related note: I said I did well at hotels, my husband politely reminded me that I lied. I sleep well on some hotel mattresses and that I am the only person he knows who has asked for a topper when they could not sleep at a hotel. All that said, I think you are right in that I think I need a medium mattress with a thicker comfort layer. Additionally our current mattress may be bottoming out and the topper is acting as a comfort layer. Do you agree?

Also it is funny you mention putting the mattress on the floor. We did just that two nights ago and both of us have been sleeping much better so it appears that the issue is in-part the foundation. Although I am still waking up because of the movement a little at night.

We did go lay on the Nova 3. It was very comfortable and we were able to test multiple softness levels. They had some nice toppers on the beds which I believe makes the bed feel more luxurious and have a false sense of softness. Because of that experience we changed our thoughts on firmness. From top to bottom, husband would be M/F/F and I would be S/M/M.

Just to complicate things I have been shopping SleepEz and spoken with all these different shops. It is interesting that there is such a big difference in cost between the Nova 3 and the two different online options out of AZ. It would be nice to save some money but ultimately I want a good place to rest my head. From what I gather I just need to bite the bullet and make a decision.

My last most recent question is about the latex and the edge of the bed. I’ve seen a latex mattress edge be described on the mattress underground like there is little support or people feel like they will roll off the mattress. We have slept on fairly traditional beds so I am concerned that we will lose sleep space because we instinctively stay away from the bed edge. Should we size up to a king to compensate?

Thank you for all of your help!

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Sensitive Sleeper Exchanging/Replacing Denver Mattress 25 Sep 2021 13:36 #4

Hi StinkyFace.


You are most welcome! And thanks for the additional information which confirms my initial assessment and the funny remark about your hotel bed history :)

I was actually wondering if the zoning in the bed is off for me because I am petite and it is not supporting the right spots?

Generally, Zoning systems can certainly be useful and well worth considering for people that have more difficulty finding a mattress with the right "balance" between comfort/pressure relief (under the shoulders especially) and support/alignment (under the hips/pelvis especially) or who have more challenging circumstances or sensitivities, body types that are more difficult to "match" to a mattress, more complex medical issues, or who have a history of having more difficulty in finding a mattress that works well for them. In your case zoning can be counterproductive unless you have some customized zoning scheme for your petite size.

. Also, it is funny you mention putting the mattress on the floor. We did just that two nights ago and both of us have been sleeping much better so it appears that the issue is in-part the foundation. Although I am still waking up because of the movement a little at night.

I am glad you have zoomed in on the foundation sagging/lack of center support. When people describe situations like yours, I always suggest a “ground up” assessment to make sure that there is nothing under the mattress that may be contributing to a premature sag within the mattress.

My last most recent question is about the latex and the edge of the bed. I’ve seen a latex mattress edge be described on the mattress underground like there is little support or people feel like they will roll off the mattress. We have slept on fairly traditional beds so I am concerned that we will lose sleep space because we instinctively stay away from the bed edge. Should we size up to a king to compensate?

Because latex is so durable and also point elastic (conforms to the shape of the weight on top of it without having a significant effect on the area beside it) and because of its high compression modulus (the rate at which a material gets firmer with deeper compression) ... for most people it doesn't normally require edge reinforcement for sleeping (even for heavy people). This is particularly true if the support layers are firm enough for the person sleeping on the mattress.
This said I would agree that if you have a room large enough, a King mattress would serve you much better in terms of motion isolation as you’d want as much separation as possible between the your and your husband on the mattress. There would still be some motion transfer in the mattresses touching as well as being in the same platform bed base, but IMO this would be a better option than having two twin XL sets on one king metal bed frame, as that would is likely to transfer more motion through the bed frame.

. We did go lay on the Nova 3. It was very comfortable and we were able to test multiple softness levels. They had some nice toppers on the beds which I believe makes the bed feel more luxurious and have a false sense of softness. Because of that experience, we changed our thoughts on firmness. From top to bottom, husband would be M/F/F and I would be S/M/M.

Your experiments can guide you much better than any theory at a distance can, I am not clear though if you removed the topers from the beds in the showroom before you decided on the above configurations. I am a bit concerned that even though you are a side sleeper a configuration S/M/M for you may not be supportive enough. The primary concern for a good night's sleep is neutral spinal alignment. In the showroom, this construction felt comfortable (which is what you first feel when you first go to bed at night) but I’d keep in mind that if during the night your spine is not properly aligned you will experience frequent repositioning and possibly lower back pains in the morning. This of course depends on how evenly distributed your weight is.

To ensure proper support, if you can I’d make another store visit and try these configurations but this time I'd focus on alignment and perhaps ask your husband to come and help with a visual checking for proper alignment. Here are a few tips on how to test for alignment.

~ Make sure you lie on a mattress for long enough that your mind and muscles are fully relaxed. A mattress can feel very different when you are fully relaxed than it does when you are tense. For most people, this means spending at least 15 minutes on a mattress and focus on the relaxed feeling that you have when you are going to sleep. As you are a side sleeper you may want to take the pillow that you do well with at home to limit the many variables at play especially in the cervical, neck, and shoulder areas.

~ Try to sense whether your muscles are able to completely "let go" and allow the mattress to support your natural alignment rather than using muscle tension to keep you in alignment. This means that you can sense your body and muscles fully relaxing without a tendency for any area to be tense.

~ Next is to pay particular attention to any tension or discomfort (or even pain) in the areas where poor alignment tends to produce symptoms for you. This can be different for different people but is usually in the lower back or lumbar curve, and the upper back and neck where the spine also curves. Test in all your sleeping positions making sure to move slowly when you change position and stay relaxed. Bear in mind that minor discomfort when you are testing can be amplified when you are sleeping for longer periods of time.

~ Next is to make sure that all the inner curves of the spine are filled in so that there are no "gaps" in between your body and the mattress. It should be fairly difficult to slide your hand under the lower back or waist (if the mattress is too firm then this area will not be filled in well enough and sliding a hand under it will not have enough resistance and will be too easy).

~ If you stand up with "good posture" then your husband will be able to get a sense of your natural curves from the side and back and this can help them see if your posture is close to what it is when you are standing up and whether any part of your body is sinking in a little too far (usually the hips/ pelvis) or not enough (usually the upper body and shoulders). They can also make sure that your head and neck is also in good alignment when you are testing because this can affect how a mattress feels in the upper body area.

~ On your side ... your spine should be relatively straight (like it is when you look at someone from behind) and your body profile along the side of your body should be similar to your standing position (shoulders and hips in roughly the same relative position). On your back ... the spine and body profile should be similar to the side view when you are standing with no obvious areas where parts of you are sagging or sinking in too far or not enough (within reason).

If you test more objectively and specifically for alignment using these suggestions and the more subtle cues from your body in conjunction with some help then you should be much closer to your ideal than if you only test for more subjective ideas of "comfort".

Budget-wise, unless Organic mattress certification (Which Bella is not) is important to you there should not be any reason why the same configuration would not work if you decide to purchase from the other two shops you spoke with. As far as I am aware they both have organic components including the mattress encasement. I’d make sure though to match the type of Latex (including if it is SBR, NR, or Blended) so that you get a similar comfort/support experience.

Hope that this helps with ensuring that you have the correct layer configuration for both you and your husband.
Phoenix
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