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DisasterIY 04 Nov 2021 10:39 #1

Original Thread: www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-forum/index/23506-douglas-bed-failed-cancelled-simmons-at-last-second-where-to-go?start=0

My Original thread has become quite convoluted, so I'm making another one to help narrow my goals and perhaps get some opinions. If that is not ok, delete!


California King DIY, layer options listed:

A) 6" Dunlop Core Layer (medfirm) (35-40ILD)

B ) 3" Sleep on Latex Comfort layer (soft)(20-40ILD)

C) 2" Linenspa memory foam comfort layer (extraextrasoft)(unknown ILD)

We have tried many different set ups (bottom to top)...

1) A, B, C - top layer feel completely unsupportive but has a 'soft feel'. Backpain resides mostly in the upper back.

2) A, B - feels the best in terms of support, but fails massively in terms of comfort, body feels bruised and used in the morning. Wife likes this best but she only sleeps on her back. Gymnastic floor vibes.

3) A, C, B - maintained the setup for the most time, still doesn't feel great, it's almost like the part we want to support us just caves in, it does feel much softer than without C, allowing me to sleep on my side without 'bruising', I do experience lower back pain with this setup though.

We have not tried A, C, but I just feel like this memory foam is so shitty and finally have the budget to move on from it.

Proceeding:
eyeing up a 1" talalay topper, ILD guesstimate in the low 10's, still getting this number. I feel with this I can go A, B, D and get a nice bit of softness on top while also having the support of the B layer and the firmness of our A layer.

Worries:
I dont want to spend another $300 on another latex layer that won't work. I'm worried the C layer is the same as the future D layer but they are completely different foams. I'm also worried 1" isn't enough, but I figured that we can add some sort of down cover or something to supplement the softness if it isn't soft enough. I can't afford another $600 in latex.

Closing:
Unless you are Canadian and require a calking, I suggest buying from SleepEZ or Arizona mattress, I feel like I wouldn't be living this nightmare had I been south of the border. We have not had a comfortable night sleep in 9 months now and I sleep on the couch when I'm feeling extra destroyed by my $1500 mattress. I regret not getting the swiss dream bed, or something premade. This has been a time consuming nightmare and I feel so far from my goal.

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Last edit: by jimlaheytpb.

DisasterIY 09 Nov 2021 18:56 #2

Hi jimlaheytpb.

I'm so sorry to hear of your DisasterIY! I apologize for the delay in the reply. I was standing by to see if one of our DIY gurus would take a stab at your dilemma, but I also don't want to leave you without any sort of answer so I'm chiming in and still hoping that DIYers will chime in :)

1) A, B, C - top layer feel completely unsupportive but has a 'soft feel'. Backpain resides mostly in the upper back.


Because the pain you're describing is in your upper back, I'm going to offer some things to consider (from the ever wise Mattress To Go) that you may (or may not) feel is helpful. But, it's better for me to put it all out there and let you decide for yourself what may be useful to you!

Two easy and inexpensive things I would tell you to consider before making layer changes:
1. Reevaluate your pillow. Make sure it is thick enough when you are on your side to maintain a decent alignment and make sure that if you roll to your stomach that you are not using that thick pillow.
2. Change the way you sleep on your side. Try placing a large pillow behind your shoulders/upper thoracic area to allow you to slightly lean back against it when you are on your side. This takes some of the stress off of the shoulder joint against the mattress and also allows for some support for the shoulder not against the mattress. Additionally, try "hugging" a pillow in front of you when sleeping on your side. This can help to take some of the stress off of the shoulder that is against the mattress, and also helps to support the shoulder that is not against the mattress. You didn't mention how you position your arm that is against the mattress. If you find "hugging" the pillow top be uncomfortable, I would still tell you to place a pillow in front of you and use it for a ledge upon which you may place your free arm that is not against the mattress. This will allow for extra support and take some of the stress off of this area and the upper thoracic region.

2) A, B - feels the best in terms of support, but fails massively in terms of comfort, body feels bruised and used in the morning. Wife likes this best but she only sleeps on her back. Gymnastic floor vibes.


It sounds like you're finding this build too firm as a side sleeper. I think you may be onto something with the addition of 1" of soft talalay latex. You have a larger profile and sleep on your side so you need to be able to sink (but not collapse, which the memory foam sounds like it may be doing).

3) A, C, B - maintained the setup for the most time, still doesn't feel great, it's almost like the part we want to support us just caves in, it does feel much softer than without C, allowing me to sleep on my side without 'bruising', I do experience lower back pain with this setup though.


Unfortunately, I don't think that 2" memory foam is sturdy enough to handle this configuration, which is why you are feeling inconsistencies in terms of support and also potentially the lower back pain.

I'm also worried 1" isn't enough, but I figured that we can add some sort of down cover or something to supplement the softness if it isn't soft enough.


If 1" is almost enough, you can always buy another 1" layer. Or, purchase through someone who has a sturdy layer exchange policy who would allow you to exchange for a 2" layer and pay the difference during the trial/testing period.

I regret not getting the swiss dream bed, or something premade. This has been a time consuming nightmare and I feel so far from my goal.


I am so sorry! You are not the first Canadian to express this sort of DIY frustration.

I'm also wondering about your B layer. You mention it is soft, but then the range is very wide (20 - 40). Do you happen to know the specific ILD of that layer?

NikkiTMU
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DisasterIY 12 Nov 2021 11:52 #3

Hi jimlaheytpb.

I'm so sorry to hear of your DisasterIY! I apologize for the delay in the reply. I was standing by to see if one of our DIY gurus would take a stab at your dilemma, but I also don't want to leave you without any sort of answer so I'm chiming in and still hoping that DIYers will chime in :)

1) A, B, C - top layer feel completely unsupportive but has a 'soft feel'. Backpain resides mostly in the upper back.


Because the pain you're describing is in your upper back, I'm going to offer some things to consider (from the ever wise Mattress To Go) that you may (or may not) feel is helpful. But, it's better for me to put it all out there and let you decide for yourself what may be useful to you!

Two easy and inexpensive things I would tell you to consider before making layer changes:
1. Reevaluate your pillow. Make sure it is thick enough when you are on your side to maintain a decent alignment and make sure that if you roll to your stomach that you are not using that thick pillow.
2. Change the way you sleep on your side. Try placing a large pillow behind your shoulders/upper thoracic area to allow you to slightly lean back against it when you are on your side. This takes some of the stress off of the shoulder joint against the mattress and also allows for some support for the shoulder not against the mattress. Additionally, try "hugging" a pillow in front of you when sleeping on your side. This can help to take some of the stress off of the shoulder that is against the mattress, and also helps to support the shoulder that is not against the mattress. You didn't mention how you position your arm that is against the mattress. If you find "hugging" the pillow top be uncomfortable, I would still tell you to place a pillow in front of you and use it for a ledge upon which you may place your free arm that is not against the mattress. This will allow for extra support and take some of the stress off of this area and the upper thoracic region.

2) A, B - feels the best in terms of support, but fails massively in terms of comfort, body feels bruised and used in the morning. Wife likes this best but she only sleeps on her back. Gymnastic floor vibes.


It sounds like you're finding this build too firm as a side sleeper. I think you may be onto something with the addition of 1" of soft talalay latex. You have a larger profile and sleep on your side so you need to be able to sink (but not collapse, which the memory foam sounds like it may be doing).

3) A, C, B - maintained the setup for the most time, still doesn't feel great, it's almost like the part we want to support us just caves in, it does feel much softer than without C, allowing me to sleep on my side without 'bruising', I do experience lower back pain with this setup though.


Unfortunately, I don't think that 2" memory foam is sturdy enough to handle this configuration, which is why you are feeling inconsistencies in terms of support and also potentially the lower back pain.

I'm also worried 1" isn't enough, but I figured that we can add some sort of down cover or something to supplement the softness if it isn't soft enough.


If 1" is almost enough, you can always buy another 1" layer. Or, purchase through someone who has a sturdy layer exchange policy who would allow you to exchange for a 2" layer and pay the difference during the trial/testing period.

I regret not getting the swiss dream bed, or something premade. This has been a time consuming nightmare and I feel so far from my goal.


I am so sorry! You are not the first Canadian to express this sort of DIY frustration.

I'm also wondering about your B layer. You mention it is soft, but then the range is very wide (20 - 40). Do you happen to know the specific ILD of that layer?

NikkiTMU


A lot to take in here thank you.

In waiting I ordered the super soft (15ild) talalay topper. We are struggling quite a bit to both sleep happily so I had to make a move.

The reason 20-40 was stated was a misunderstanding reading about my topper. Sleeponlatex lists the following for the 3" topper I have

20 ILD (25%) / 46 ILD (40%)

Hope that helps. I think it just isn't enough though and I'm really hoping the 1" adds that extra 'cush' I'm needing as my wife floats on top of the most part.

If it doesnt. I am also looking at a 2" hemp topper, but again the worry becomes 3" soft + 1" super soft + 2" hemp creates a very large comfort layer that will likely be too much.

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DisasterIY 15 Nov 2021 18:24 #4

So we have liftoff! The 1" topper arrived yesterday and we slept on it last night. Layer options are now:

A) 6" Dunlop Core Layer (medfirm) (35-40ILD)

B) 3" Sleep on Latex Comfort layer (soft)(20-40ILD)

C) 2" Linenspa memory foam comfort layer (extraextrasoft)(unknown ILD)

D) 1" Talalay (WITH COPPER WOW!) Latex (super soft) (13-15ILD)

Our sleeping setup last night was A -> B -> D (Bottom to Top)

I was so happy laying on it, it felt slightly on the firm side while I lay on my side, but noticeably softer than just the A -> B setup and I no longer felt forced to sleep on my back or wake up sore. I actually thought 'we're finally here!'

But then I woke up at 4am miserable, my back was aching terribly center of mass and I had a hard time getting back to sleep (I proceeded to wake up due to pain 3 more times during the night)

How can this be? Is it just my body getting accustomed to Latex? or is that it? Am I ruined? Do I need more softness? (but it feels so nice to lay on)

Looking at your post the last thing I have left is the pillow, but my pillow is fairly new, Down, and is easily 'customizable' (I can make it very small or very thicc)

I took some pictures, if you look real close you can see a circle on my back where the majority of the pain can be found, I took pictures with my standard sleep posture (regular pillow), an extremely high pillow (never do this just wanted to see how it affected my back), and no pillow (rarely do this). Anything pop out at anyone?
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DisasterIY 16 Nov 2021 05:49 #5

jimlaheytpb,

Sorry you're continuing to have discomfort with your mattress setup. Wanted to mention that I'm only seeing one picture attached. Since NikkiTMU has been working with you I'd expect that she'll respond shortly, but having the additional pics might help. It appears to me from the single pic that you're hammocking so that you're back is unnaturally arched which is likely the cause of your back pain. The problem could be that the combo of 3" of soft Dunlop latex along with 1" super soft Talalay latex is too soft/thick of a comfort cradle which is lacking in sufficient support for your midsection which is where we carry most of our weight. There's often a delicate balance between having enough of a comfort layer to avoid pressure point pain while still having enough support to maintain proper spinal alignment. I'm not sure what combination to suggest you try next, hopefully NikkiTMU will have some helpful input for you.

Regards,

- Bill

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DisasterIY 16 Nov 2021 09:58 #6

jimlaheytpb,

Sorry you're continuing to have discomfort with your mattress setup. Wanted to mention that I'm only seeing one picture attached. Since NikkiTMU has been working with you I'd expect that she'll respond shortly, but having the additional pics might help. It appears to me from the single pic that you're hammocking so that you're back is unnaturally arched which is likely the cause of your back pain. The problem could be that the combo of 3" of soft Dunlop latex along with 1" super soft Talalay latex is too soft/thick of a comfort cradle which is lacking in sufficient support for your midsection which is where we carry most of our weight. There's often a delicate balance between having enough of a comfort layer to avoid pressure point pain while still having enough support to maintain proper spinal alignment. I'm not sure what combination to suggest you try next, hopefully NikkiTMU will have some helpful input for you.

Regards,

- Bill


Thanks for the reply, I'm seeing only 1 picture as well, I will try to reupload them in this post.

So you're saying even though my mattress feels too firm, that it is likely too soft? That would be almost the end for me, I can't forsee myself spending 6 more months destroying myself while working up a budget for an entire new setup that may or may not work.

I regret cancelling my original Serta purchase to be completely honest with all of you.

One of the images I can't upload, but it is with a super high pillow which I never do anyways.
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DisasterIY 16 Nov 2021 11:06 #7

Let's see what NikkiTMU says after seeing your pics since she's been involved from the start, or another TMU administrator who will likely be more experienced than I am at diagnosing your situation. Hang in there... hopefully a solution will not be as involved as you fear.

- Bill

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DisasterIY 16 Nov 2021 15:04 #8

Hey jimlaheytpb,

Sorry to butt in, if I'm out of line please let me know. I don't want to step on anyones toes or misguide you at all to make matters worse. I've just been reading about your story on here and felt bad for what you've been going through for the past 9 months. I'd say you've been suffering long enough. I'm hoping you're able to find a solution to your mattress problems here pretty soon so you can start sleeping a lot better.

I'm by far no expert on latex mattresses by any means. I only started researching them heavily for the past month or so and finally built my first latex mattress last week in fact, largely thanks to the incredible resources and knowledge people have so kindly shared on here over the years. NikkiTMU, Sweet Dreams, and most everyone else on here are going to be way more knowledgeable than I am about these things. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

To me what stands out the most is that there is a huge gap in between your firm dunlop core which has a ILD of up to about 40 and your comfort layers. Your SOL comfort layer is a soft firmness layer with around 20 ILD and the other comfort layers are even softer than that. It just seems to me like you should have some kind of transition layer in between the two, so that the transition between them in terms of firmness/softness aren't so dramatic. Which maybe then would give you much better support that way without being too firm and also better pressure relief and comfort as well. You may not want to hear or even consider this but I'm gonna throw it out there, perhaps adding a 2-3" medium firmness transition layer (around 28 ILD) would help in your situation. Preferably talalay latex since you sleep on your side a lot. I'd be curious to see what NikkiTMU or someone else thought about this.

Take care

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DisasterIY 16 Nov 2021 15:36 #9

Hey jimlaheytpb,

Sorry to butt in, if I'm out of line please let me know. I don't want to step on anyones toes or misguide you at all to make matters worse. I've just been reading about your story on here and felt bad for what you've been going through for the past 9 months. I'd say you've been suffering long enough. I'm hoping you're able to find a solution to your mattress problems here pretty soon so you can start sleeping a lot better.

I'm by far no expert on latex mattresses by any means. I only started researching them heavily for the past month or so and finally built my first latex mattress last week in fact, largely thanks to the incredible resources and knowledge people have so kindly shared on here over the years. NikkiTMU, Sweet Dreams, and most everyone else on here are going to be way more knowledgeable than I am about these things. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

To me what stands out the most is that there is a huge gap in between your firm dunlop core which has a ILD of up to about 40 and your comfort layers. Your SOL comfort layer is a soft firmness layer with around 20 ILD and the other comfort layers are even softer than that. It just seems to me like you should have some kind of transition layer in between the two, so that the transition between them in terms of firmness/softness aren't so dramatic. Which maybe then would give you much better support that way without being too firm and also better pressure relief and comfort as well. You may not want to hear or even consider this but I'm gonna throw it out there, perhaps adding a 2-3" medium firmness transition layer (around 28 ILD) would help in your situation. Preferably talalay latex since you sleep on your side a lot. I'd be curious to see what NikkiTMU or someone else thought about this.

Take care


I appreciate anyone's suggestions at this point. I had thought about that previously, but in sleeping with the memory foam on top of the 20ILD layer I experience the best sleep, which leads me to believe I simply needed a little more 'cush' on top. Looking back on it, I should have returned the sleep on latex topper when I had the chance but unfortunately I'm well clear of their 100 day policy, let alone the 30 day policy of their toppers. Again in looking back I think Dunlop latex is terrible for me but am confident my core layer will last many years (depending how much I sleep on the couch).

I guess I could try and contact sleep on latex to see if they could help at all, but I'm kind of stuck with what I have at this point and with 0 budget to explore more options I'm not thrilled. The only thing I thought to try last night was flip the 3" topper with the 1" topper so that the softer is underneath (but I don't suspect that would help).

Is it likely that the 3" layer is the problem? Should I attempt to contact SoL and replace it? (Again i doubt they would honor this even though their customer service is fantastic).

I'll also wait for Nikki, won't make any moves because I can't afford to and will just sleep terribly until I have a plan :silly:

Should I try removing the 3" layer and just have the 1" on the 6"? I could maybe swing another 1" layer in a couple months and skip my wife's Christmas present :silly:

I'm just tired.

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DisasterIY 16 Nov 2021 20:58 #10

Can I petition the forum for an edit button? I hate double posting.

I have been laying in my bed for the last 2 hours simply trying to figure it out on my own and using the Mattress guidelines on this site. I think you all may be right in that my comfort layer is now too thick, and the reason it never felt good is because of the density of the dunlop topper. I can visually see myself not hitting the core layer at the bottom when laying, and even if I kneel on the bed I struggle to feel that firmness that lurks 4 inches below me.

I'm wondering if there is a low cost solution somewhere in having an inch cut off the 3" dunlop layer, having more layers is always a good thing right?

I think the main problem here is that my comfort layer was never comfortable, and I'm trying to fix it by loading on more comfort and more comfort which is destroying the firm integrity that my bones need, but definitely helping solve my 'bruised' feeling.

To reiterate, I think the 3" layer is the problem, and always has been the problem, and because the memory foam had no rigidity like this new 1" layer has, I am no longer sinking far enough to hit that firm core.

I'm very curious what Nikki thinks, but I have at least spent more time on the bed and mentally trying to figure out a fix.

I'm going to let this post fester for a few days and sleep on the couch tonight before tackling another night on my bed.

Sorry again for the double post.

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