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Re: My Essentia.com False Advertising and Lying to Consumer

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14 May 2015 14:10 #61 by MattressToGo

EstoyConfundido wrote:
Talalay Global’s site says: “100% Natural Latex

TG/LI will sometimes use the term Natural Latex to refer to their blended (NR/SBR) talalay. A misnomer. Not to be confused with 100% NR latex.

Jeff Scheuer, The Beducator™ Owner of Mattress To Go
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14 May 2015 14:33 - 17 Apr 2016 22:58 #62 by Phoenix
Hi EstoyConfundido,

My comments were not about the quality or even the safety of their materials but about the claims they are making about it (see post #18 here ). Regardless of who uses these chemicals in their latex formulation they are not natural chemicals.

You can see some similar concerns that were expressed by the FTC here and you can also see some lab test results of their "natural latex memory foam" pillow in the attachments to this post.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 17 Apr 2016 22:58 by Phoenix.

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15 May 2015 08:56 #63 by EstoyConfundido
I read through the FTC stuff. Essentia can’t claim anything without proof which is kinda obvious. Clearly they had to have changed something which was acceptable for the FTC. Honestly, based on the test results Essentia has provided I am comfortable with “parts per million” as I can at least put a unit of measurement to it which is more than I can do with any other mattress on the market.

As far as the attachments you link to, where did they come from? There is no mention of Essentia on there or the lab doing the testing. Who’s to say that is even their products being tested? These could have easily been written up in Word by anyone.

Sharing something like that with no definitive proof is very strange to me. Aren’t you now doing exactly what you claim Essentia has been doing?

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15 May 2015 09:31 - 15 May 2015 09:35 #64 by Phoenix
Hi EstoyConfundido,

I read through the FTC stuff. Essentia can’t claim anything without proof which is kinda obvious. Clearly they had to have changed something which was acceptable for the FTC. Honestly, based on the test results Essentia has provided I am comfortable with “parts per million” as I can at least put a unit of measurement to it which is more than I can do with any other mattress on the market.


If you are comfortable with this type of logic (nobody has said anything so it must be fine) then of course that would be your own choice.

As far as the attachments you link to, where did they come from? There is no mention of Essentia on there or the lab doing the testing. Who’s to say that is even their products being tested? These could have easily been written up in Word by anyone.

Sharing something like that with no definitive proof is very strange to me. Aren’t you now doing exactly what you claim Essentia has been doing?


They were sent to me with a cover letter that went with the test results and was submitted to the lab by a credible source. I have also talked with someone that was involved in the pillow purchase. Having said that you are free to believe whatever you are comfortable believing.

In the end if you have read the information in this topic and the other topics about Essentia and you are comfortable with a purchase from them and the price you are paying then you will at least have made an informed decision which is all that really matters. My goal is to provide you with information but you are always free to choose what you do with it.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 15 May 2015 09:35 by Phoenix.

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10 Nov 2015 12:29 - 10 Nov 2015 12:30 #65 by ShopperGirl
I realize this is an old thread, but it is VERY relevant to me today.

After having slept on a Savvy Rest mattress for the past year, with excruciating back pain and trying every "fix" imaginable recommended by the folks at Savvy Rest, I have decided it's time to bit the bullet and ditch the all latex mattress.

Plus, it's sagging horribly now and, when I spoke to the guy at my local Savvy Rest store who sold it to me, his response was, "Yeah, latex--especially Talalay--will do that. Just flip and rotate the top latex layer. You're supposed to both rotate and flip the top latex layer every six months anyway."

What?! I've never heard of this! Plus, the holes on each side of the foam layer is different, so it would have a very different feel if it were flipped. (I can perhaps understand rotating it, but flipping it seems weird.)

Anyway, today I called Essentia, thinking I would try their mattresses, as a few of my friends have their mattresses and love them.

Frankly, at this point I am giving up on the "safeness" of an all natural (latex) mattress. I could care less about if they use polyurethane or not. I am in so much pain, I just want a mattress that is comfortable. (And I NEVER had back pain like this PRIOR to getting the latex mattress. At first I thought i just needed time to get used to it. But a year is PLENTY of time to get used to something. And, when I stay in higher-end hotels--usually Marriotts that use Jameson foam mattresses, not the ones that use Simmons mattresses-- my back doesn't hurt and I wake up pain free. So, it is clearly the mattress that is causing my back issues.) I may even just get one of the Jameson mattresses from the Marriott store. At least I know I can sleep on those! (My only hesitation with going this route: a neighbor ordered one and said the mattress was NOT AT ALL like what is in hotels, that it was like "sleeping on cement." So, I worry that the mattresses for sale to the public are not at all the same mattresses as in the hotels--even though Marriott claims they are the same.)

Anyway, after reading your post about Essentia, I am wondering if I just couldn't get a six-inch layer of Dunlop and put a 2-3 inch layer of Oeko-Tek certified polyfoam on top and get the same effect without spending an arm and a leg. (I already spent and arm and a leg on the Savvy Rest.)

If I were to go this route, where can I buy just a 2-3 inch Oeko-Tek certified layer of polyfoam? I am having trouble finding this in an online search.

Many thanks for this site and all of the efforts you put into it! :)
Last edit: 10 Nov 2015 12:30 by ShopperGirl. Reason: I forgot a word, and the sentence didn't make sense without it

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10 Nov 2015 13:08 - 10 Nov 2015 13:10 #66 by Phoenix
Hi ShopperGirl,


I'm sorry to hear that the Savvy Rest mattress you chose didn't work out as well as you hoped for and wasn't a good "match" for you in terms of PPP (although they certainly use high quality materials).

After having slept on a Savvy Rest mattress for the past year, with excruciating back pain and trying every "fix" imaginable recommended by the folks at Savvy Rest, I have decided it's time to bit the bullet and ditch the all latex mattress.


While it's not possible to "diagnose" mattress comfort issues on a forum with any certainty because there are too many unique unknowns, variables, and complexities involved that can affect how each person sleeps on a mattress in terms of "comfort" and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) or any "symptoms" they experience ... there is more about the most common symptoms that people may experience when they sleep on a mattress and the most likely (although not the only) reasons for them in post #2 here .

There is also more about primary or "deep" support and secondary or "surface" support and their relationship to firmness and pressure relief and the "roles" of different layers in a mattress in post #2 here and in post #4 here that may also be helpful in clarifying the difference between "support" and "pressure relief" and "feel".

These posts are the "tools" that can help with the analysis, detective work, or trial and error that may be necessary to help you learn your body's language and "translate" what your body is trying to tell you so you can identify the types of changes that have the best chance of reducing or eliminating any "symptoms" you are experiencing (at least to the degree that any symptoms are from your mattress rather than the result of any pre-existing issues you may have that aren't connected to a mattress).

Before you give up completely ... it may also be helpful if you could provide more information that compares and contrasts the specifics of how each layering combination you have tried compared to each other and the specific "symptoms" you experienced on each of them and even more importantly how (and how much) each of your specific symptoms changed with different combinations relative to the other combinations you tried previously. Information about the changes in your experience and symptoms can act as a pointer to the type or "direction" of changes that may be most helpful.

The first step in identifying the types of changes that may be most helpful is to assess whether the symptoms you are experiencing are most likely to come from "comfort" and pressure point issues or are coming from support and alignment issues.

If they are coming from comfort and pressure point issues then changes to the upper layers of the mattress will often be the most effective solution.

If they are coming from support and alignment issues then changes to the deeper layers will often be the most effective solution.

The most common cause of lower back pain is either upper layers that are too thick/soft or deeper layers that are too soft although it's also possible that there could be other reasons for lower back pain as well.

Plus, it's sagging horribly now and, when I spoke to the guy at my local Savvy Rest store who sold it to me, his response was, "Yeah, latex--especially Talalay--will do that. Just flip and rotate the top latex layer. You're supposed to both rotate and flip the top latex layer every six months anyway."

What?! I've never heard of this! Plus, the holes on each side of the foam layer is different, so it would have a very different feel if it were flipped. (I can perhaps understand rotating it, but flipping it seems weird.)


The firmness of a Talalay latex layer will be very close to the same on both sides even if the pincores are different. Their suggestion is also a good one because flipping and rotating a mattress (or an individual top layer) can help extend the useful life of the mattress or layer (see post #2 here ).

Frankly, at this point I am giving up on the "safeness" of an all natural (latex) mattress. I could care less about if they use polyurethane or not. I am in so much pain, I just want a mattress that is comfortable. (And I NEVER had back pain like this PRIOR to getting the latex mattress. At first I thought i just needed time to get used to it. But a year is PLENTY of time to get used to something. And, when I stay in higher-end hotels--usually Marriotts that use Jameson foam mattresses, not the ones that use Simmons mattresses-- my back doesn't hurt and I wake up pain free. So, it is clearly the mattress that is causing my back issues.) I may even just get one of the Jameson mattresses from the Marriott store. At least I know I can sleep on those! (My only hesitation with going this route: a neighbor ordered one and said the mattress was NOT AT ALL like what is in hotels, that it was like "sleeping on cement." So, I worry that the mattresses for sale to the public are not at all the same mattresses as in the hotels--even though Marriott claims they are the same.)


You can see some comments about hotel mattresses in post #3 here . Many hotels will use a mattress pad on top of their mattress which can change the feel and performance of the mattress compared to using the mattress by itself.

There is more about the 3 most important parts of "value" of a mattress purchase in post #13 here which can help you make more meaningful quality/value comparisons between mattresses in terms of suitability (how well you will sleep), durability (how long you will sleep well), and the overall value of a mattress compared to your other finalists based on suitability, durability, and all the other parts of your personal value equation that are most important to you (including the price or course and the options you have available after a purchase).

Outside of "comfort" and PPP the most important part of the value of a mattress purchase is durability which is all about how long you will sleep well on a mattress. This is the part of your research that you can't "feel" and assessing the durability and useful life of a mattress always depends on knowing the type and quality of the materials inside it regardless of the name of the manufacturer on the label (or how a mattress feels in a showroom or when it is relatively new) so I would always make sure that you can find out the information listed here so you can compare the materials and components to the quality/durability guidelines here to confirm that there are no lower quality materials or weak links in a mattress that would be a cause for concern relative to the durability and useful life of a mattress before making any purchase.

In other words the suitability of a mattress is a separate issue than the durability and useful life of a mattress.

Anyway, after reading your post about Essentia, I am wondering if I just couldn't get a six-inch layer of Dunlop and put a 2-3 inch layer of Oeko-Tek certified polyfoam on top and get the same effect without spending an arm and a leg. (I already spent and arm and a leg on the Savvy Rest.)

If I were to go this route, where can I buy just a 2-3 inch Oeko-Tek certified layer of polyfoam? I am having trouble finding this in an online search.


Outside of the topic you are posting in ... you can read some comments about Essentia and some of the misleading claims they make and some forum discussions with them (as well as some of the FTC issues they have had about their claims) in this thread and posts #3 and #4 here ) as well. I certainly wouldn't treat the information on their website as a reliable source of "fact based" information. I would also make some very careful "value" comparisons before purchasing any Essentia mattress because they tend to be in a much higher budget range than other mattresses that use similar quality materials as well.

There is more information in post #9 here about the different ways that one mattress can "match" or "approximate" another one. Every layer and component in a mattress (including the cover) will affect the feel and performance of every other layer and component and the mattress "as a whole" so unless you are able to find another mattress that uses exactly the same type of materials, components, cover, layer thicknesses, layer firmnesses, and overall design (which would be very unlikely) then there really isn't a way to match one mattress to another one in terms of "comfort" and PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and your Personal preferences) based on the specifications of the mattress.

Mattress manufacturers generally try to differentiate their mattress from the mattresses made by other manufacturers and don't normally try to "match" another mattress that is made by a different manufacturer so while you may find some local mattresses that use "similar" materials or designs and there would be others that are in a similar general category or firmness range ... they will generally have different combinations of foam layers and components.

Unless a manufacturer specifically says in their description of a mattress that one of their mattresses in the same general category is specifically designed to "match" or "approximate" another one in terms of firmness or "feel" (or they are very familiar with both mattresses and can provide reliable guidance about how they compare based on the "averages" of a larger group of people) ... the only reliable way to know for certain how two mattresses would compare for you in terms of how they "feel" or in terms of firmness or PPP would be based on your own careful testing or actual sleeping experience on both of them.

There are also no "standard" definitions or consensus of opinions for firmness ratings and different manufacturers can rate their mattresses very differently than others so a mattress that one manufacturer rates as being a specific firmness could be rated very differently by another manufacturer. Different people can also have very different perceptions of firmness and softness compared to others as well and a mattress that feels firm for one person can feel like "medium" for someone else or even "soft" for someone else (or vice versa) depending on their body type, sleeping style, physiology, their frame of reference based on what they are used to, and their individual sensitivity and perceptions. There are also different types of firmness and softness that different people may be sensitive to that can affect how they "rate" a mattress as well (see post #15 here ) so different people can also have very different opinions on how two mattresses compare in terms of firmness and some people may rate one mattress as being firmer than another and someone else may rate them the other way around. This is all relative and very subjective and is as much an art as a science.

There is also more information about the different levels of organic certifications in post #2 here and some of the benefits of an organic certification in post #3 here and there is more about the different types of organic and safety certifications in post #2 here and more about some of the differences between organic and safety certifications in post #2 here that can help you decide which type of certification is most important to you.

In most cases Oeko-Tex is a certification that is used for latex and it would be much less common to see an Oeko-Tex certification for memory foam or polyfoam and CertiPUR is the most common "safety" certification that is used for memory foam or polyfoam. The better online sources I'm aware of for individual mattress layers and components are listed in the component list here . I would also keep in mind that polyfoam is a different and more resilient material than the material that is used in the top layers of the Essentia mattress which is a slow response material with little resilience.

If you are attracted to the idea of designing and building your own DIY mattress out of separate components and a separate cover then the first place I would start is by reading option 3 in post #15 here and the posts it links to (and option #1 and #2 as well) so that you have more realistic expectations and that you are comfortable with the learning curve, uncertainty, trial and error, or in some cases the higher costs that may be involved in the DIY process. While it can certainly be a rewarding project ... the best approach to a DIY mattress is a "spirit of adventure" where what you learn and the satisfaction that comes from the process itself is more important than any cost savings you may realize (which may or may not happen).

If you decide to take on the challenge then I would either use the specs (if they are available) of a mattress that you have tested and confirmed is a good match for you in terms of PPP (Posture and alignment, Pressure relief, and Personal preferences) as a reference point or blueprint and try and "match" every layer and component in your reference mattress (including any springs, any foam layers, and the cover) as closely as possible or use a "bottom up" approach (see post #2 here ).

Phoenix

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Last edit: 10 Nov 2015 13:10 by Phoenix.

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10 Nov 2015 13:51 #67 by ShopperGirl
Thanks so much for your fast, detailed and thorough response, Phoenix. I will check out some of the links you provided.

My back issues are upper back and sciatica. My doc tells me it's an alignment issue during sleep.

As far as my "learning curve," I have spent all the time I care to last year. I spent over four months researching before I bought that Savvy Rest, so I think I am up to speed. (Yes, this forum was one source of research.)

I am not a fan of the DIY stuff but I am thinking it is an option I should not overlook.

Sorry about the confusion as to Oeko-TEK certification for memory foam. I thought I had read that you posted that in one of your other comments.

As far as all of the configurations and my results; I have been through SO MANY over the past year, I cannot recall them all.

I know you actively promote and advocate for Savvy Rest and basically say everything they do is Gospel, but I am not a believer. As you say: mattresses are personal, and I made the HUUUUUUGE mistake of getting caught up in this "oh-it-has-to-be-non-toxic" mantra, which led me down the SR path .

I still plan to research the Marriott mattresses by Jaimeson more. No, they are not the "oh-so-pure" mattresses, but at least I know I can sleep on those.

Anyway, thanks again for all of the links. I will check them out.

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10 Nov 2015 14:54 - 10 Nov 2015 14:57 #68 by Phoenix
Hi ShopperGirl,

Sorry about the confusion as to Oeko-TEK certification for memory foam. I thought I had read that you posted that in one of your other comments.


There are a few memory foams that are Oeko-Tex certified but you will generally only find them in a "finished mattress ( see here for example) and not as individual layers that can be purchased individually.

I know you actively promote and advocate for Savvy Rest and basically say everything they do is Gospel, but I am not a believer.


I'm not certain where you read this but it certainly wasn't on this forum (and this is the only place that I post).

They do use high quality materials in their mattresses ... but I generally suggest that anyone that is considering them make some very careful value comparisons with other similar mattresses that are in lower budget ranges.

While I do recommend the members here "as a group" (and Savvy Rest isn't one of the members here) because I believe that they compete well with the best in the industry in terms of their quality, value, service, knowledge, and transparency ... I don't make specific suggestions or recommendations for either a mattress, manufacturers/retailers, or combinations of materials or components because the first "rule" of mattress shopping is to always remember that you are the only one that can feel what you feel on a mattress and there are too many unknowns, variables, and personal preferences involved that are unique to each person to use a formula or for anyone to be able to predict or make a specific suggestion or recommendation about which mattress or combination of materials and components or which type of mattress would be the best "match" for you in terms of "comfort" or PPP or how a mattress will "feel" to you or compare to another mattress based on specs (either yours or a mattress) or "theory at a distance" that can possibly be more accurate than your own careful testing (hopefully using the testing guidelines in step 4 of the tutorial) or your own personal sleeping experience (see post #2 here ).

I also don't believe that most mattress materials are "toxic" and I think that much if not most of the information about "toxic" materials on the internet is very misleading and in many cases is more about marketing than anything else.

For example ... one of the most common replies in the forum for those that are getting overly "caught up" in these types of issues is this one ...

There is also a lot more information in post #2 here and the more detailed posts and information it links to about safe, natural, organic, "chemical free", and "green" mattresses and mattress materials that can help you sort through some of the marketing information and terminology that you will encounter in the industry and can help you differentiate between them and answer "how safe is safe enough for me" and that can help you decide on the type of materials and components you are most comfortable having in your mattress or on the certifications for harmful substances and VOC's that may be important to you. These types of issues are complex and are generally specific to each person and their individual sensitivities, circumstances, criteria, beliefs, and lifestyle choices.


I still plan to research the Marriott mattresses by Jaimeson more. No, they are not the "oh-so-pure" mattresses, but at least I know I can sleep on those.


I believe that the Marriott (Jamison) mattresses use 1.8 lb polyfoam which as you can see in the quality/durability guidelines here (and unlike the materials used in many other hotel mattresses) is a good quality material.

Phoenix

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Last edit: 10 Nov 2015 14:57 by Phoenix.

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29 Dec 2015 00:49 - 29 Dec 2015 01:56 #69 by confused1
I've been searching the web for information on mattresses almost non stop for the last few days and it's just my luck that, hours after placing an order for an Essentia Dormeuse, I discover this forum (and this thread). After reading over all 5 pages I am left with one question. In all honesty I'm neither surprised or upset by the fact that this company is peddling misinformation. Quite frankly I'm generally skeptical of any brand or company that focuses primarily on marketing itself as green, eco friendly, organic etc etc. That said, I'm sure the company is very sneaky in it's marketing practices and I recognized right (even before reading this thread) that the claim of being "organic" doesn't really mean anything. The question I have is... are there companies accessible to me in Vancouver (Canada) that make a low (or lower) emission product (in terms of off-gassing) of similar or better quality at a better price?
Last edit: 29 Dec 2015 01:56 by confused1.

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29 Dec 2015 09:47 #70 by Phoenix
Hi confused1,

I've answered your questions in my reply here in the other topic you posted in with similar comments and questions.

Phoenix

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