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A handful of questions 18 Aug 2012 15:53 #1

What an incredible site this is - almost overwhelming in the amount of information, but so amazingly helpful. Thank you for it; this is an invaluable resource when trying to figure out the convoluted world of mattresses. Oy vey.

I have a couple of questions that I haven't yet found answers for...

1) Latex mattresses: from what I've read, it seems that there is a strong correlation between material density and durability. Is this correct? It also seems that there is a correlation between ILD and density. Is this correct? It makes sense to me that there would be a relationship, but want to confirm.

2) Looking around, there appear to be a finite number of actual latex manufacturers, and many many many retailers selling the product. Which makes me wonder: do the many many retailers all supply different specs to the manufacturers, so that the 100% natural Dunlop latex from Manufacturer X offered by company A may be different than that offered by Companies B which is different than... etc.? Maybe company A wants a lower pricepoint, so they order a less dense version of the product?

Here's why I ask: I'm looking at the 6" Basic Dunlop Latex mattress from tranquilitymattress.com. They state it is a 24ILD which, from what I've read, seems a little soft for dunlop. I realize ILD is a subjective measurement, but as I google around, it seems that most sites put it on the firmer side of things, where as 24ILD appears to be on the medium/medium-soft side. So I'm wondering if the lower Dunlop ILD @ this site is because it is less dense & lower quality?

3) I can't find any reviews on Tranquilitymattress.com. They've been referenced a time or two on this side as affiliated with Angelbeds.com, who have relatively positive reviews, but that's it. Thoughts on the company, and the value of the product they offer? Perhaps compared to Sleepez (who are just down the road from me and who I'll be visitng shortly)? (I'm focused on tranquilitymattress because they offer financing; I have no problem spending $1500-$2000 on a mattress - if it'll last for 10+ years - and could pay cash, but... I'd rather use someone else's money. :)

Thanks in advance!

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Re: A handful of questions 18 Aug 2012 23:42 #2

Hi kitty,

In general ... all good quality latex is among the most durable materials regardless of density. Having said that ... softness will play a secondary role in the durability of all materials including latex (softer materials are more subject to repeated mechanical compression and stress) and the position of the material in a mattress will also play a role (deeper materials will last longer than materials closer to the surface) .

Density is a more important factor in the durability of memory foam and polyfoam than it is in latex although there is a relationship between density and ILD in latex that doesn't exist in memory foam and polyfoam so density does play a role because it is the main factor that determines softness in latex. This would be more true in comparisons between "Talalay and Talalay" or "Dunlop and Dunlop" because they each have different cell structures and different ranges of density. Dunlop in the same ILD will be denser than Talalay so the two can't really be compared by density in terms of relative durability. There's also more about this in this article . For those with a more "technical" interest there's also a lot more detailed discussion about durability and longevity of different types of latex in post #2 here along with post #2 here .

2) Looking around, there appear to be a finite number of actual latex manufacturers, and many many many retailers selling the product. Which makes me wonder: do the many many retailers all supply different specs to the manufacturers, so that the 100% natural Dunlop latex from Manufacturer X offered by company A may be different than that offered by Companies B which is different than... etc.? Maybe company A wants a lower pricepoint, so they order a less dense version of the product?


There are certainly a finite amount of latex manufacturers although there are many more who produce Dunlop (dozens) than Talalay (mainly 2 companies supply most of the Talalay around the world although there are also several additional Chinese Talalay producers which are beginning to have a North American presence). Each of these produces many different formulations however and most of these can even custom produce latex to different specifications. The latex manufacturers supply the same specs to their retailers (the other way around than you mentioned) but these are often "translated" in many different ways because there are many types of "specs" around the world and some mattress manufacturers or retailers will sometimes "mistranslate" one type of spec into another (such as metric into imperial) which leads to some of the confusion. Less dense versions of the same product is really the same thing as ordering a softer product when you are ordering latex. Some manufacturers will sell their latex in density ranges (a latex core is not consistent in all parts of the material although Talalay is more consistent than Dunlop in different areas of the same core) while others will sell their latex in ILD ranges. in some cases a latex distributor (who orders the latex from the manufacturer and sells it to the mattress manufacturers) wll test each batch they receive for ILD so they can sell it based on softness/firmness rather than density. Even the same density can have different levels of softness depending on how the latex is produced and on differences between different batches of latex. Natural latex is more variable in this way than synthetic.

Here's why I ask: I'm looking at the 6" Basic Dunlop Latex mattress from tranquilitymattress.com. They state it is a 24ILD which, from what I've read, seems a little soft for dunlop. I realize ILD is a subjective measurement, but as I google around, it seems that most sites put it on the firmer side of things, where as 24ILD appears to be on the medium/medium-soft side. So I'm wondering if the lower Dunlop ILD @ this site is because it is less dense & lower quality?


ILD is actually a very specific measurement (not subjective) and Dunlop can certainly be produced in lower ILD's but it's less commonly seen. "In the range" of 24 ILD though is not so uncommon in Dunlop. Lower ILD's in the teens would be in the range of 55 - 65 kg/M3 while most Dunlop is in the range or 70 or 75 and higher. Even here though ... Dunlop has a density range not a specific density (and an ILD range not a specific ILD) because the density and firmness varies across the core and from top to bottom. Dunlop is also different from Talalay in terms of compression modulus (gets firmer faster with compression) so a 24 ILD Dunlop layer will be different than a 24 ILD Talalay layer both in terms of feel and in it's actual firmness unless someone sinks in exactly 25% into the layer (which is the amount of compression where ILD is usually measured although even here not all areas of the world use a 25% compression and some use 40%). Polyfoam is also not an exact ILD and will vary in different places on the bun from side to side and top to bottom. All of these are ordered in certain density and ILD tolerances.

ILD also has nothing to do with quality ... only softness firmness at 25% compression.

3) I can't find any reviews on Tranquilitymattress.com. They've been referenced a time or two on this side as affiliated with Angelbeds.com, who have relatively positive reviews, but that's it. Thoughts on the company, and the value of the product they offer? Perhaps compared to Sleepez (who are just down the road from me and who I'll be visitng shortly)? (I'm focused on tranquilitymattress because they offer financing; I have no problem spending $1500-$2000 on a mattress - if it'll last for 10+ years - and could pay cash, but... I'd rather use someone else's money.


A mattress is only as good as the materials in it ... and assuming that Angelbeds/Tranquility mattress is accurately describing it's materials (and there is no reason to doubt this) ... then their latex mattresses are using good quality latex. Value is a different matter though and an approximate value comparison would depend on comparing two mattresses that offered the same materials and components (not just the foam or latex) and also comparing the services and options offered by the company and of course the prices. In your case for example ... this mattress may have better value than another because of the financing that is part of the purchase. Return or exchange options are also part of the value equation that isn't part of the mattress itself because it can't be "separated" from the purchase.
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A forum search on " angelbeds " and on " tranquility " (you can just click on these) will bring up more about them including my thoughts on their relative value compared to the members here. Not surprisingly ... the short version is "better than many other choices but for various reasons not in the same value range as the members here" although as I mentioned ... for you they may be better value because of the options they make available that aren't available elsewhere and that are part of the purchase.

Hope this helps

Phoenix
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Re: A handful of questions 19 Aug 2012 16:09 #3

Thank you so much, Phoenix. Your reply is tremendously helpful and I appreciate it. I'm one of those who wants to know all the gory details before making a major purchase (or at least as many details as possible) so I can do as empircal an evaluation as possible, so you're information is fantastic.

Switching gears almost completely - I went to some of my local retailers yesterday, among them R&S Mattress - and tried out some mattresses. The very first one I tried was a Brooklyn Bedding one (whom I know you recommend), and I liked it very much - a touch on the firm side, but I understand it would soften a bit as it breaks in, which I expect would be about perfect. I was surprised to find out that it was a gel memory foam - I believe the model is the 'palazzo gel lux supreme'.

I had pretty much disregarded memory foam in my research because of the pricing and the possibility of heat retention (not exactly a feature I want here in AZ - it's hot enough without help!). However, the mattress felt much better than the other ones I tried out and the fellow offered a compelling price for a king-sized set ($1500 for mattress, boxes and frame. The all latex mattress from tranquility at which I was looking was $1500 just for the mattress; I'd have to build/buy the foundation for it, so either spend an additional $400 or spend a few hours out in the AZ summer heat & humidity buidling. That's a tough call.).

Consequently, I'm looking at it a little closer, but I can't find any information on the construction of this mattress. I pressed for information, but didn't get much in the way of technical specs. Any thoughts/knowledge on this particular mattress from Brooklyn?

Thank you once again for your time, knowledge and willingness to share both!

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Re: A handful of questions 19 Aug 2012 21:48 #4

Hi ktty,

Switching gears almost completely - I went to some of my local retailers yesterday, among them R&S Mattress - and tried out some mattresses. The very first one I tried was a Brooklyn Bedding one (whom I know you recommend), and I liked it very much - a touch on the firm side, but I understand it would soften a bit as it breaks in, which I expect would be about perfect. I was surprised to find out that it was a gel memory foam - I believe the model is the 'palazzo gel lux supreme'.


Brooklyn Bedding has several different "channels" that sell different mattresses. R&S mattress is their liquidation outlet and they sell mostly other brands that are liquidation items. The Palazzo for example is a Simmons mattress with all the typical "weaknesses" of a major brand except that the prices are lower than normal which puts them in a better value range. They also sell a line that is similar to the Dreamfoam (latex hybrid) that is made by Brooklyn Bedding and I would probably focus on these or mattresses made by Brooklyn Bedding if I was shopping at R&S. The staff at their liquidation outlets are usually very helpful but they may have varying levels of knowledge about various mattress materials at different outlets and don't all have the same level of knowledge and experience as Chuck at Dreamfoam (although he is often in one of their outlets). Like all major brands ... it may also be difficult or impossible to get the information you need about the layers in the Palazzo to make an informed decision both because Simmons doesn't supply it and the staff there would probably not be as materials focused anyway.

I had pretty much disregarded memory foam in my research because of the pricing and the possibility of heat retention (not exactly a feature I want here in AZ - it's hot enough without help!). However, the mattress felt much better than the other ones I tried out and the fellow offered a compelling price for a king-sized set ($1500 for mattress, boxes and frame. The all latex mattress from tranquility at which I was looking was $1500 just for the mattress; I'd have to build/buy the foundation for it, so either spend an additional $400 or spend a few hours out in the AZ summer heat & humidity buidling. That's a tough call.).


There are a couple of members of the site who have bricks and mortar outlets in the Phoenix area and there is some particularly good local value there. It may be a good idea to include them in your research as well. As compelling as the price may be ... I would hesitate to buy a Simmons mattress. The Phoenix list is in post #4 here and should be helpful.

Thank you once again for your time, knowledge and willingness to share both!


You're very welcome :)

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
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Last edit: by Phoenix.

Re: A handful of questions 19 Aug 2012 22:10 #5

I'm thoroughly confused now! The bed at the store was clearly marked Brooklyn Bedding - it was woven into the covering/casing. Do I understand correctly, then, that it is simply a re-branded mattress? That they brought in a Simmons mattress, put a new covering on it and then are marketing it as Brooklyn Bedding?

In addition to being dishonest (which doesn't really surprise me in any industry, particularly one as convoluted as the mattress one appears to be), it also seems unwise and short-sighted. Why would a company that is, apparently, trying to differentiate itself on quality and value from the 'big guys' take a supposedly inferior product and market it as their own? Isn't that shooting themselves in the foot when 3, 5, 10 years down the road the customer says 'Man, I thought this was a good brand, but it sure didn't last..."

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Re: A handful of questions 20 Aug 2012 06:39 #6

Hi ktty,

When you mentioned the name on the mattress ... I did a google search and came up with the Simmons Palazzo which I assumed was the mattress you were looking at. If it was labelled as a Brooklyn Bedding mattress ... then this is clearly not the case and would be one of theirs in which case I would definitely consider it. Of course I would still want to know what the layers were because I personally wouldn't buy a mattress where I didn't know what was in it.

Phoenix
Researching for a mattress?... Be sure to read The Mattress Shopping Tutorial.
Click here for TMU Discount Codes if purchasing from Our Trusted Members.
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Re: A handful of questions 20 Aug 2012 11:59 #7

Hey Phoenix,

Aaaaahhhhh - gotcha. Phew. The idea that the branding on the mattress may not really be the branding was about to add a whole new level of ugly to this whole endeavor.

Thank you again for your continued assistance!
-K

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