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Bedinabox 10 Sep 2012 03:33 #1

Hi, and thanks for your very informative website and replies to posters.

You do not recommend Bedinabox and I'm trying to understand why as it garners the highest rating from sleeplikethedead.com which compiles reviews from multiple sources to generate ratings. I'm looking for a queen size mattress under $1,000 and trying to decide between Bedinabox, Rocky Mtn, and Select Foam.

Here's what I've gleaned from your posts, in order of importance:

#1 3lb density memory foam layer is insufficient, regardless of the brand, and this affects durability and longevity which is of huge importance when the average lifespan of a memory foam mattress is only what about 6 years to begin with, correct? However, BinaB touts their 3lb density memory foam as of a newer design, superior to most other memory foams--vague yes, but why do you not buy it? Also, they offer gel injected memory foam for +$100 to improve on keeping the mattress cool. I am 6", 154lbs, a somewhat hot sleeper, and a side sleeper. Would I get longer use out of this mattress (or any memory foam mattress) due to my body and sleep types?

You do report their core layer as being of superior quality and that this factor is perhaps of equal importance in many areas, though not in terms of durability. What about buying a replacement memory foam topper when the original wears out and just putting it over the top--what would that be like?

#2 You do not recommend buying from online only sellers because one cannot try out the mattress ahead of time. However, BinaB return policy allows for a 2-4 month return, free of shipping fees. I can only imagine that in the event one is not satisfied with their mattress, packing it up and getting it to UPS would be a real hassle, but still that's an impressive return policy and it seems they have good reviews for their customer service.

Thank you in advance for your response.

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Re: Bedinabox 10 Sep 2012 05:10 #2

Hi elotrolado,

You do not recommend Bedinabox and I'm trying to understand why as it garners the highest rating from sleeplikethedead.com


Online reviews can be helpful but they are usually written close to the time of purchase and are generally more reflective of the price someone pays or the "deal" they believe they got than they are of the quality of a mattress or the materials in it. Many people will also write a review based on how "comfortable" a mattress is and mistake comfort for quality. Even the lowest quality materials can be comfortable at the time of purchase and for a while after that. Most people who write reviews don't really have the knowledge to know the difference between higher quality and lower quality materials. While Sleep Like The Dead itself does a tremendous job with putting together feedback from many sources which can certainly be very helpful ... reviews themselves have limitations and don't really take into account the kind of long term experiences or more factual information that are just as important. Buying a mattress based on other people's experiences can also lead to some "not so good" choices.You can read more about the difference between reading reviews and mattress research and what reviews can be useful for and what they can't in post #13 here .

I'm looking for a queen size mattress under $1,000 and trying to decide between Bedinabox, Rocky Mtn, and Select Foam.


The quality and value of a mattress is determined by the quality of the materials in it. Lower density foams are just not as durable and are also a much less expensive component in a mattress. While density is not the only factor in durability (and you can see more of the many factors that determine the durability of a mattress in post #2 here ) ... it is the single biggest factor by itself. Higher quality materials cost more and keep their comfort and support and other qualities longer.

#1 3lb density memory foam layer is insufficient, regardless of the brand, and this affects durability and longevity which is of huge importance when the average lifespan of a memory foam mattress is only what about 6 years to begin with, correct?


This is mostly true but using "averages" for lifespan isn't something I would subscribe to. It depends on the mattress as much as the individual sleeping on it. In some cases low density materials can soften enough in the first 3 months to make a mattress unsleepable for some people even though for others the same mattress may last a few years. Higher quality materials may last some people who made a good choice and were well inside their range of pressure relief and alignment needs for 15 years. When it comes to durability ... averages can be very misleading. Mattresses generally become unsleepable because of foam softening before the foam has actually "worn out" or completely degraded and shows the type of impressions that would be covered by a warranty.

However, BinaB touts their 3lb density memory foam as of a newer design, superior to most other memory foams--vague yes, but why do you not buy it?


I don't buy it because it's just not true. Some time spent reading on the PFA site (and other authoritative industry sites) will confirm that density (or to be more technically correct ... the unfilled polymer density) of a foam is still the primary factor in foam durability. It is also one of the biggest factors in the cost of a foam. It is true that there are higher performance and lower performance foams of the same density (which can be more or less costly) such as lower density foams that have higher resiliency or a higher sag factor (or other properties) but density is still the primary factor in durability and how long a foam continues to perform at or closer to its original specs.

Also, they offer gel injected memory foam for +$100 to improve on keeping the mattress cool. I am 6", 154lbs, a somewhat hot sleeper, and a side sleeper. Would I get longer use out of this mattress (or any memory foam mattress) due to my body and sleep types?


There are different types of gel foams (which you can read about in post #2 here ) and it depends on the type and the density of the memory foam which is used as a base and the amount and type of gel that is added which will determine whether it will increase or decrease durability compared to a similar density 'regular" memory foam. If the gel is the "mixed" type where two liquids are mixed together then it would be a good option IMO. If it is the particulate type then I would tend to avoid it.

There is also more at the end of post #4 here about how different types of gel and cooling technologies can have a cooling effect on a mattress but in general they are only one part of temperature regulation and the mattresses that regulate temperature the best in "real life" include moisture and humidity control which is the primary temperature regulating mechanism of any mattress including gel foams. Gel can be a piece of a larger puzzle but in general will only affect temperature until temperatures equalize (usually for a period of time when you are going to sleep) at which point the foam becomes an insulator.

You do report their core layer as being of superior quality and that this factor is perhaps of equal importance in many areas, though not in terms of durability. What about buying a replacement memory foam topper when the original wears out and just putting it over the top--what would that be like?


Yes ... I and others have talked with them about the discrepancy between the quality of their base layers and the quality of their comfort layers (and they have acknowledged this to me). I suspect that you may see an increase in their comfort layer density at some point so the quality of the two layers are closer together. If the memory foam wears out ... you would need to remove the old memory foam and replace it with a new layer (not add the new layer over top which would only follow the softened foam under it and probably compromise support.

#2 You do not recommend buying from online only sellers because one cannot try out the mattress ahead of time.


Actually I frequently recommend online sellers and there is a list of members of this site in post #21 here who specialize in online "and on the phone" sales who do a tremendous job and are among the best in the country. I normally recommend that people look locally first because if there are good quality and value choices available locally it can be less risky and you would have the best of both worlds but online manufacturers make great value available for those who are in an area where the local value is not as good as many other areas of the country.

however, BinaB return policy allows for a 2-4 month return, free of shipping fees.


Most of the better online outlets offer a return period that doesn't involve heavy costs for returning the mattress. Many also offer a layer exchange so the mattress can be customized after a purchase without having to return the whole mattress. These types of services are fairly common with online manufacturers and those that don't offer them will usually have lower prices instead (returns ad exchanges are built in to the cost of the mattress).

I can only imagine that in the event one is not satisfied with their mattress, packing it up and getting it to UPS would be a real hassle, but still that's an impressive return policy and it seems they have good reviews for their customer service.


Returning a mattress can be a hassle (and exchanging layers is much simpler) but they do have a good return policy yes. They also have good service and good integrity IMO (they will err on the side of the customer). They really are good people but they made a mistake in the design of their mattress IMO.

The return period is not long enough though for the effects of low density foams to really be felt except in a few cases where the initial softening of the foam over the first 90 days may put a few people "over the line" in terms of their needs and preferences ... but this would not be the norm (and they would receive a refund anyway). After the first 90 days or so ... foam softening is a more gradual process (faster with lower density foams) and then the final stage of foam breakdown is when it starts to completely degrade and show deeper impressions.

Phoenix
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Re: Bedinabox 13 Sep 2012 03:16 #3

Phoenix,

thank you, your reply was very informative.

Now I'm thinking that getting a mattress where I could replace the comfort layer (or any layer) once it wears out makes a lot of economic sense. This also seems to complicate matters, as I can see I now need to evaluate each layer of the mattress: core, comfort, and covers. This seems to be what you are recommending.

Can this method be used with latex mattresses?

Can you make a couple of suggestions for specific mattresses, given a $1000 budget for a queen mattress for 6', 154lb male, side sleeper?



thanks again

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Re: Bedinabox 13 Sep 2012 13:44 #4

Hi elotrolado,

Now I'm thinking that getting a mattress where I could replace the comfort layer (or any layer) once it wears out makes a lot of economic sense. This also seems to complicate matters, as I can see I now need to evaluate each layer of the mattress: core, comfort, and covers. This seems to be what you are recommending.

Can this method be used with latex mattresses?


This is certainly a very good option to have IMO. There are quite a few of the manufacturing members of the site which make mattresses that offer various options to choose your own layering and switch out layers either to change the feel and performance or to replace a layer that may soften faster than the deeper layers in the mattress. They are listed in post #21 here .

Unfortunately your $1000 budget for a queen is generally too low for a layered latex mattress and even a little on the low side for a high quality 6" latex mattress but you are well within the range for a latex hybrid which has a few inches of latex over a polyfoam support core.

A few examples of these include ...

www.latexmattresscompany.com/queen-7-zoned-natural-latex-mattress.html

www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_home-garden?_encoding=UTF8&field-brandtextbin=Dreamfoam%20Bedding&node=1055398

There may also be similar mattresses available to you locally.

Phoenix.
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Re: Bedinabox 18 Sep 2012 04:18 #5

Ok, so I have read more on your site and I'm about to test out latex @ BayBeds where I live. I still want a mattress with the swap out option of layers. It seems I could get this kind of mattress in high quality memory foam for significantly less than latex (Queen @ $800 on sale at Rocky Mtn versus $1195 at SleepEZ), but the latex may be of better valuable due to it's superior durability.

So, since I'm trying to stay within budget, $1000-$1300, I'm wondering how much difference the profile and number of layers actually makes. For example, what would be the difference between these two mattresses from SleepEz, aside from the price. In other words, is the $450 increase worth it for the more expensive mattress?

1. the 7": two 3" layers of either Talalay Blend or Dunlop plus cotton/wool cover $1195

2. the 8": a 2" Talalay Blend and 6" Dunlop core plus cotton/wool cover $1675

thank you, kaleo

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Last edit: by phoenix.

Re: Bedinabox 18 Sep 2012 04:46 #6

I was in error, the memory foam mattress I cited from Rocky Mtn, is the Cool Comfort, with four layers, on sale at $999 for a queen. 10 inches thick:
Two 3 inch layers of high-density Reflex foam in the core
2 inch layer of 5 lb. Sensus brand memory foam
2 inch layer of 4 lb. Aerus brand memory foam
Removable Zippered CoolMax Cover

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Re: Bedinabox 18 Sep 2012 14:33 #7

Hi elotrolado,

It seems I could get this kind of mattress in high quality memory foam for significantly less than latex (Queen @ $800 on sale at Rocky Mtn versus $1195 at SleepEZ), but the latex may be of better valuable due to it's superior durability.


While it's true that latex in general is more durable than memory foam ... they are also an apples to oranges comparison. Memory foam and latex are about as different as two materials can be and the choice between them would normally be based on preference and the many differences in feel and performance rather than "value". Value comparisons would be more meaningful between mattresses made of the same materials.

So, since I'm trying to stay within budget, $1000-$1300, I'm wondering how much difference the profile and number of layers actually makes. For example, what would be the difference between these two mattresses from SleepEz, aside from the price.


Besides the differences in materials ... the many different combinations of layering and is the most important part of creating mattresses with different type of feel and performance. Even small changes in layering can make a big difference in how well a mattress meets the needs and preferences of a particular individual. Post #2 here has more about this and the " putting the layers together " section of the site has more as well. Layering is critical to creating the feel and performance that makes one mattress "better" than another for each unique person.

In other words, is the $450 increase worth it for the more expensive mattress?


This is something that can only be answered by each person but the 2" of softer material on top can make a large difference in the feel and performance of that mattress and in it's ability to relieve pressure. For someone that couldnt feel a difference (which would be very unlikely) or for someone where the 6" version worked "perfectly" for their body type, sleeping positions, and preferences ... then there would be little benefit or value in choosing a thicker mattress with a softer comfort layer. In the same way ... for someone where a 9" mattress with certain layers worked "perfectly" there would also be little benefit in choosing something thicker. For those where the 6" mattress was too thin to produce the feel and performance they wanted ... then no matter what the cost difference the thicker mattress would be worth it. There would be little value on a personal level to a mattress that didn't fit your needs and preferences in terms of PPP (Pressure relief, Posture and alignment, and Personal preferences).

I would rather have a mattress that fit my needs and preferences but used lower quality and less durable materials (so it would fit my budget) than have a mattress that didn't but was better quality and more durable. There is little value IMO of sleeping on a mattress that doesn't "work" no matter what the quality or value or the materials in it.

Phoenix
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Re: Bedinabox 20 Sep 2012 00:25 #8

Ok, I'm getting close to making a choice, I promise. I will go out and test a latex mattress locally, but want to see what you think of these 2 low price mattresses by DreamFoam, sold I think, only on Amazon. Below are the product descriptions from Amazon, but first are my specific questions:

1. The second bed, though more expensive, $900 versus $600, might fulfill my desire for replacing layers when the top one wears out, thereby extending the longevity of the mattress and overall cost over time. Does this make sense to think this way?

2. Is the HR Base foam of sufficient density (2.35lb) and what might I expect in terms of longevity compared to most latex mattresses?

3. The first bed is really only 33% latex, the second one even less, as the core in both are "2.35 pound high density convoluted base foam". The more expensive mattress having this at 8 inches versus 5.5, the rest of each mattress seems to be exactly the same. What would be the differences other than the obvious profile between these two?

4. What do you think of the quality and comfort of the bamboo cover and what is "1.5" of super soft reflex foam"?

5. Any idea how they do this: "custom tailored to your desired firmness"?

6. Any other important questions I should ask them?



$600 Queen 10" Ultra Plush Latex Mattress with Bamboo Cover. All our latex mattresses are custom tailored to your desired firmness. After purchase every customer will be contacted by customer support via email to discuss a firmness level on your latex mattress. All of our latex mattresses are made to order, it is tough buying a latex mattress online and with this option you can have a firm, medium firmness or soft latex mattress custom made for you. 3 inches of Talalay Latex foam instantly conforms to each unique contour of your body for exceptional, orthopedic support and pressure relief. Quilted Bamboo cover contains 100% biodegradable bamboo fibers with 1.5 inches of super soft reflex foam. Softer than cotton but with four times the moisture absorbency of cotton for a drier, cooler more comfortable sleep. 5.5 inch 2.35 pound high density convoluted base foam for increased air flow and conformability. The gentle conforming support of latex foam reduces high-pressure areas that shut off capillary blood flow causing a person to toss and turn. This alleviates pressure and helps bring oxygen and nutrients to your muscles, so you awake feeling recharged and renewed. -Ideal for allergy sufferers, Talalay latex mattresses are hypoallergenic and breathable -Optimal orthopedic support, naturally conforming to body contours. -Luxurious resilience and feel -Enhanced breathability -Resistant to moisture and heat -Superior pressure relief that helps bring oxygen and nutrients to musclesQueen 10" Ultra Plush Latex Mattress with Bamboo Cover
Talalay Latex and 2.35 pound high density HR Base foam 100% Made in the USA


$900 Queen 12" Ultra Plush EuroTop Latex Mattress with Bamboo Zipper Cover. All our latex mattresses are custom tailored to your desired firmness. After purchase every customer will be contacted by customer support via email to discuss a firmness level on your latex mattress. All of our latex mattresses are made to order, it is tough buying a latex mattress online and with this option you can have a firm, medium firmness or soft latex mattress custom made for you. The 3 inches of Talalay Latex foam instantly conform to each unique contour of your body for exceptional, orthopedic support and pressure relief. Quilted Bamboo cover contains 100% biodegradable bamboo fibers with 1.5 inches of super soft reflex foam. The 8 inch 2.35 pound high density convoluted base foam for increased air flow and conformability. The gentle conforming support of latex foam reduces tossing and turning. Ideal for allergy sufferers, Talalay latex mattresses are hypoallergenic and breathable -Optimal orthopedic support, naturally conforming to body contours. -Luxurious resilience and feel -Enhanced breathability. The Queen 12" Ultra Plush EuroTop Latex Mattress with Bamboo Zipper Cover is a unique mattress because it allows you to change the comfort level (softness) of the mattress by adjusting the density of the Latex. The Zipper Cover on this mattress cannot be washed or dry-cleaned. If you purchase our mattress and are not satisfied with the comfort level, we will allow you to exchange the density of the latex for a small fee. We will still contact you to customize your latex mattress, but you now have an option if you are not completely satisfied.

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Re: Bedinabox 20 Sep 2012 01:13 #9

Hi Elotrolado,

Dreamfoam (Brooklyn Bedding) is a member of this site which means that I believe they are among the best quality/value in the country. There are many dozens of posts about them in the forum including many reviews by members who have bought them. A forum search on Ultimate Dreams (you can just click this) will bring most of them up (there are a lot of posts).

This is what is called a latex/polyufoam hybrid. The comfort layers are usually the weak link of a mattress and when this uses latex and has a good quality polyfoam base under it then it will be a very durable mattress. The quilting layer is 1.5" of soft polyfoam which is used to add to the surface softness or "hand feel" of the comfort layer and lower the resilience slightly compared to sleeping directly on the latex. It is already very soft and thin enough that further softening of the polyfoam won't affect the durability of the mattress. The base polyfoam used in the support layers is very high quality (equivalent to the polyfoam used in Tempurpedic for example).

All the various versions have a 3" latex comfort layer and their customers can choose the ILD (softness/firmness) of the latex to customize the feel of the mattress. They have a 1 - 10 scale which they use to help keep the choices simple and the ILD of the choices ranges from 19 to 36. They can also customize the quilting layer for "in between" choices.

The Ultimate Dreams Ultra Plush is a finished mattress so it's important to choose well (I would call them to discuss your choice) because there is no exchange on the mattress. They are good at helping their customers make good choices though as the feedback indicates. the Eurotop has the benefit of a zip cover so if for any reason you need to change your comfort layer choice you can do so at a very reasonable cost They charge you either $200 for a king size or $150 for smaller sizes and then ship the new layer. When you receive it ... you ship the old layer back (shipping is prepaid) and then they refund you half of the original charge. While the cost of the Eurotop is higher ... the risk is lower. They can also use a different ILD on each side of a king size for couples who may wish to have different firmness levels.

As you mention this also allows you to change out the latex layer down the road if necessary (although this wouldn't be through the comfort exchange policy of course).

These are very good value for those who don't have the budget for an all latex mattress and want a high quality alternative that still has many of the benefits of latex in the comfort layers.

Hope this helps.

Phoenix

PS: if you do order this mattress ... make sure you let them know you are a forum member so you will also receive your free shredded latex pillow.
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Re: Bedinabox 16 Oct 2012 01:12 #10

Hi, Phoenix. So, after getting sidetracked with other priorities, I'm back at searching for the right mattress.

I did go out and try latex and memory foam mattresses at my local store recommended by MU, BayBed and Mattress. I loved the owner who was laid back and very helpful. After trying a number of beds, the one I liked best was the Queen Royal Plush. It has an unusual construction: bottom spring coil followed by 4 layers of Talalay latex: the bottom layer is a spring coil "individually pocketed spring unit with heavier gauge coils in the center third. the coils are encased in high density foam for a firm, yet comfortable edge for both sitting and sleeping." the next 3 layers are of Talalay latex of different firmnesses, or, my favorite was the top layer being soft memory foam. All 4 foam layers are exchangeable and interchangeable as they are enclosed in a zip case. The only problem with this one is the price: $1400

So now I'm trying to decide between this one which is over my budget and the latex/polyfoam hybrid from Dreamfoam for $900. It also has a zip cover which allows for swapping out the $3" comfort layer.

I like the idea of buying local for a number of reasons, and I don't get to try out the Dreamfoam a head of time as it is mail order only, but can swap out the comfort layer for a different density if I'm not satisfied, though for an extra charge. However, the $400 price difference between the two is significant.

Any last thoughts you'd suggest considering as I choose between the two?

thanks much.

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